Gender division in the pool room

Johnnyt said:
Real men play for money. :D. Johnnyt
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True but the money won by playing pool is just another form of status. A symbol to show that you have beaten your opponent. People don't play because they want to get rich even at the highest levels. The real satisfaction and true status comes from being the best and that is what motivates the players to keep playing and get better.

I understand that you will probrably point to hustlers who could care less what people think while they are hustling, but while they might stall on the road in order to make a few bucks to live on even they have their circle of friends that they wan to obtain status with.
 
Unmarried women go where they think they can meet unmarried men who would make a good husband.

Their impression of pool players isn't exactly "good husband" material. Gambling, drinking, long time spent away from home, etc.

If you wanted to take up a sport in order to meet eligible men, which of the following would you choose?:

Golf
Tennis
Pool

If men are looking for a "life partner" who likes the same sports, there are a lot more golf and tennis players than pool players.
 
First let me say that the following is just generalizations, a broad view not a meant to be taken personal by any single person.

At first I thought it was a matter of not having a desire to compete, but not anymore.

Then I thought maybe it had something to do with a sense of vanity and not wanting to look silly trying to do something out of their comfort zone. Nope, wrong again.

Then I came to the conclusion that they are just plain tired of putting up with our crap, why come to the pool hall and put up with even more.
 
I've certainly noticed this trend as well. There are certainly a lot of women that play on a daily basis, but most are usually accompanied by male companions. It's far less common to see a group of women playing together and even more so to see a woman practising on her own.

I'm not sure it's really anything men are actively doing to drive women away. I don't see or hear too many slurs or put downs that are aimed at making a pool room a hostile environment (though I admit this is only my experience and is region and culture specific). I think it's a social stigma that has lingered since pools early history. Once something has a label, it's difficult subvert it. Pool rooms have certainly made strides to entice women to play with promotions like ladies night and mixed doubles leagues.

But it's still a very male dominant environment which is evidenced by the manner of paraphernalia that can be found on the walls. I can't blame room owners for this however, as their demographic is primarily males so they need to advertise towards them. But it does strengthen the concept of pool being a 'boys game'.

I also have to imagine it's tough to be a serious player if you're a woman, especially if you don't own a table. Guys always seem to want to teach women how to play, even before they realize she could probably spot them the 7 and out. So I figure it's probably not worth the trouble for some to practice in a pool room.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you need to get a copy of Ned Polsky's "Hustlers, Beats and Others" which discusses the pool hall subculture from the point of view of a sociologist who was also a pretty good player and a great fan. Get the revised edition which updated the pool stuff through 1998. It's available on the used book market for under $10 delivered to your home. Make sure you get the Lyons Press edition. This is a fairly academic book with footnotes and such.
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Thanks, I actually read the book for this project and I am using it as one of my references. I am also looking at real-life experiences. I also intend on going to pool halls myself and conducting interviews. I am just curious as to why so few women are present playing pool. A few of you said that they would like to see more women playing. I am a female myself, and every time I enter the a pool hall I am either the only one there, or there are maybe two or three others playing with males. The pool hall is a public space, where both men and women are welcomed, yet it seems to be more of a man's sport than a female's sport.
 
Re: appearance of the poolroom

It's kind of hard to explain without pictures, but the place I play is a concrete block of a building with old dirty carpet, no music, no food, no bar. I like playing there but it's a rough aesthetic to say the least even though the people are nice.
 
anthropoology said:
I'm completing a degree in anthropology and as part of this endeavor I am enrolled in a Field Study class. Essentially I need to study an aspect of a subculture and I decided to look at gender division in cue sports. So far I've noticed that there is a significantly higher number of males in pool halls than females, and those that are there are often with other men. Market research seems to support this as the disparity is something like 67 to 33%.

What I am interested to hear are your own experiences and understanding as to why this division is in place and why it persists.

Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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Depends on the pool hall. At a place in Ayer, MA, there are plenty of women there, many middle aged, not the usual young bar hoppers. This place also has a youth league, and you can also find kids under 16 there often at all sorts of hours.
 
anthropoology said:
The pool hall is a public space, where both men and women are welcomed, yet it seems to be more of a man's sport than a female's sport.
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And the female sports are?

I can only talk about the UK, but women here do not play sport. They sit and eat and gossip and talk about their boyfriends. They do not play sport, even those that require minimal physical activity, like pool. Female obesity is a national embarrassment, and worsening alarmingly.

If men indulged in such sloth, there would be campaigns, mass demonstrations and much public derision. Healthy/sporty men would be deriding fat men. No such divisions exist within the female world, which is union. One fall, all fall.

The pool hall is one of the last places where men can relax and breath freely, away from oppression.

Flip side: women get hit on IMMEDIATELY in pool halls, even the less attractive. This both attracts and repels. A lone female can get a date within 10 mins, and take her pick: a lone male has no such facility, anywhere.
 
Been coaching my girlfriend for the past couple of months. Before that she was a complete beginner. It's a real pleasure seeing her improve, because she seems to have a considerable natural talent for the game. ...She made her first ever jump shot (I on the other hand took about fifteen attempts), and first time we ever played lag-out she parked the cue ball perfectly on the rail!

She never rushes her shots and displays admirable concentration and focus while playing, often making really tough pots.

After a couple of months of playing, the only thing she's really struggling with is getting good screwback without accidentally scooping the cue ball ...but hey there's plenty of time to sort that out.

Anyway, I know that OP's question was a wider point about the gender gap in pool, and here I am coming out with a very specific anecdotal reply, but basically I am quite confident that there are only two reasons why there are fewer women in the sport than men: One is because of a basically irrational cultural bias which results in fathers encouraging their sons rather than their daughters to play pool, and the other is because women with large breasts suffer from hampered cueing as a result.

In a few years time I think the divide is going to narrow considerably such that the only difference will be down to the % of women who have mammoth bazooka jubblies and are thereby catastrophically impeded in the realm of cue sports.
 
Putting all the social stigma attached to the game aside for a minute, I'm not so sure that women (being one myself) place as much emphasis on playing games as men do.

I was exposed to sports as a young child, which isn't as common for women like myself as one would think, so I found it fun. But I don't think that's the way it goes for many women.

You might want to explore what women's priorities are vs. men. I also think that what they're exposed to or not exposed to by around age 10 might be significant.
 
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Women in North America for the most part have little to no encouragement to play pool. They have no direction into the sport. Women who are polished pool players, probably grew up with it and/or had a pool table in the house. All sports that have famous female athletes did their respective sports from the time they were small children. There are no programs for pool. You develop an AYSO like league for kids billiards, you will see more women....more people in pool halls period.
 
All of this discussion reminded me of something recently that I found unnerving. My friend and I were playing our regular game in the poolroom we always go to and a lady comes in, most likely a league player and beginner, and starts practicing. Both of us thought this was pretty cool since there aren't a lot of women that come in the first place let alone ones that want to practice by themselves. She wasn't at the table 5 minutes when some old guy from the front room comes at her like a guided missle. It was bizzare because I couldn't tell if he was hitting on her (she was quite a bit younger) or trying to put down some kind of hustle. Either way it was pretty rude. Then he starts doing to the "giving you instruction you didn't ask for bit" and it was annoying, but she didn't seem outwardly ticked off so we didn't say anything. It's sad that a guy can be so oblivious to the fact that he's annoying someone, and it's also sad that she'll probably never come back to practice again.
 
FranCrimi said:
Putting all the social stigma attached to the game aside for a minute, I'm not so sure that women (being one myself) place as much emphasis on playing games as men do.

I was exposed to sports as a young child, which isn't as common for women like myself as one would think, so I found it fun. But I don't think that's the way it goes for many women.

You might want to explore what women's priorities are vs. men. I also think that what they're exposed to or not exposed to by around age 10 might be significant.
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You understand that why women in general are less exposed to sports in their youth is also related to the social stigma issues? Whats not "proper" for a little girl to be doing. A lot of what your priorities end up being are based on those social stigmas too, because those are what drives your parents to push you in a direction.
 
StraightPoolIU said:
All of this discussion reminded me of something recently that I found unnerving. My friend and I were playing our regular game in the poolroom we always go to and a lady comes in, most likely a league player and beginner, and starts practicing. Both of us thought this was pretty cool since there aren't a lot of women that come in the first place let alone ones that want to practice by themselves. She wasn't at the table 5 minutes when some old guy from the front room comes at her like a guided missle. It was bizzare because I couldn't tell if he was hitting on her (she was quite a bit younger) or trying to put down some kind of hustle. Either way it was pretty rude. Then he starts doing to the "giving you instruction you didn't ask for bit" and it was annoying, but she didn't seem outwardly ticked off so we didn't say anything. It's sad that a guy can be so oblivious to the fact that he's annoying someone, and it's also sad that she'll probably never come back to practice again.
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I wasn't there so I cannot comment on what went down between the old geezer and the young "league" woman, but let me ask a question about giving "unwanted" help to someone: If you see someone, possibly a beginner or fairly new player, practicing at a table near you and doing something (making a bridge, stroking, etc.) that is ABSOLUTELY wrong, would you rather see this person continue to pound this bad technique into their muscle memory/thought processes, or would you rather take a chance and ask this person if you could show them a couple of things that would improve their practice sessions/overall game???

I can tell you that I am the type of guy that would ask this person if they wanted a few "tips". I do it on occasion and WAY more times than not I am allowed to help them. Get thanked afterwards too! Spent anywhere from a few minutes to HOURS working with "newbies", by simply asking them if they wanted some pointers.

IMO, it is a foolish person, man or woman, that is a beginner to a game in which they wish to do better in, that refuses to at least hear what someone has to say to help them. That said, I do realize that there are some "self-appointed" instructors that give out bad instruction from time-to-time, but the newbie could later defer to someone "in the know" to determine if this was good info or not that was given to them.

My point is, I don't think asking someone if they would like some pointers is out of line. The person being asked can always politely decline. I personally know some players (one lady on my 9-ball team) that wants to shoot good pool, but doesn't want to hear a damn thing from any of her upper skill-leveled teammates. I say let her wallow around in the bottom of the barrell if that's gonna be her attitude.

Just sayin'.

Maniac
 
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I understand your point, but I think in this particular situation the guy came off as pretty intimidating and not in the vein of "Would you like a tip on how to shoot that shot?". Also, whether it's the pool room or the driving range (I've spent considerable time in both) people generally will ask for help if they really want it. I know I feel that way. The last thing I want when I'm hitting balls is someone I don't know coming over to me and giving advice unsolicited.
 
FranCrimi said:
Putting all the social stigma attached to the game aside for a minute, I'm not so sure that women (being one myself) place as much emphasis on playing games as men do.

I was exposed to sports as a young child, which isn't as common for women like myself as one would think, so I found it fun. But I don't think that's the way it goes for many women.

You might want to explore what women's priorities are vs. men. I also think that what they're exposed to or not exposed to by around age 10 might be significant.
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Being a woman yourself, have you experienced any difficulties or encountered any problems when playing pool? Were you taken seriously?
 
A woman doesn't need to be a beginner for her presence to solicit a ton of unwanted advice and lessons. A friend has been practicing like crazy (a solid B player), but only half of that table time is she able to actually shoot balls-- because so many men are interrupting.

One guy wants her to hit everything with center and stay off the rails, another wants her to spin the balls in and loop as many rails as possible. Another likes to cheat pockets to create an angle for shape. One wants her to elevate her cue on draw and another wants the cue perfectly level at all times. One wants to teach her the marvels of the diamond system(s!) while another has a specific measurement system for kicking. Yes, there are competing aiming systems. Someone else wants to regale her with stories about his wins and losses. And most of these guys want to pick up the balls and show her their shots and drills- that they then demonstrate themselves. And yet another old guy surprisingly wants to talk smack and make her feel like she's an imposition in the room. Several want her to take their phone numbers so they can go out to a friendly, no pressure lunch one day soon (lots of pressure there).

What is she doing? She comes in wearing normal everyday clothes and ipod headphones, and just wants to do drills by herself on one of the tightest tables. Every interruption she stops, takes off her headphones, and smiles and nods until they tire themselves out talking. Then she puts her headphones on and tries again until the next interruption. She has sometimes attempted to kindly tell these men that's she's working on something specific right now, thank you, but then they want an explanation of that and then to go back to what they've got in mind.

On top of all this, there are some great times when what these guys say and do is fantastic and totally lightbulb Eureka- worthy... But then she often can't practice and own that new knowledge because immediately some other guy is trying to show her something else or talk about something different.

She doesn't want to be rude, and she respects each of these players (they range widely from B- to AA+) but she's frustrated: working full time means she only has so many hours a night/ weekend to practice, and that's chopped at least in half by the talking. These guys are mostly retired and seem to need a sympathetic female audience for some validation of their own latest pool theories.

We've wondered if subconciously there's a fear that she's getting stronger and more solid, and they want to muck it up before she moves up another level. OR they want her improvement to be proof that their pet pool theories are better than the other guys' and then they can say, "See? I showed her that."
 
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blah blah said:
A woman doesn't need to be a beginner for her presence to solicit a ton of unwanted advice and lessons. A friend has been practicing like crazy (a solid B player), but only half of that table time is she able to actually shoot balls-- because so many men are interrupting.

One guy wants her to hit everything with center and stay off the rails, another wants her to spin the balls in and loop as many rails as possible. Another likes to cheat pockets to create an angle for shape. One wants her to elevate her cue on draw and another wants the cue perfectly level at all times. One wants to teach her the marvels of the diamond system while another has a specific measurement system for kicking. Yes, there are competing aiming systems. Someone else wants to regale her with stories about his wins and losses. And most of these guys want to pick up the balls and show her their shots and drills- that they then demonstrate themselves. And yet another old guy surprisingly wants to talk smack and make her feel like she's an imposition in the room. Several want her to take their phone numbers so they can go out to a friendly, no pressure lunch one day soon (lots of pressure there).

What is she doing? She comes in wearing normal everyday clothes and ipod headphones, and just wants to do drills by herself on one of the tightest tables. Every interruption she stops, takes off her headphones, and smiles and nods until they tire themselves out talking. Then she puts her headphones on and tries again until the next interruption. She has sometimes attempted to kindly tell these men that's she's working on something specific right now, thank you, but then they want an explanation of that and then to go back to what they've got in mind.

On top of all this, there are some great times when what these guys say and do is fantastic and totally lightbulb Eureka- worthy... But then she often can't practice and own that new knowledge because immediately some other guy is trying to show her something else or talk about something different.

She doesn't want to be rude, and she respects each of these players (they range widely from B- to AA+) but she's frustrated: working full time means she only has so many hours a night/ weekend to practice, and that's chopped at least in half by the talking. These guys are mostly retired and seem to need a sympathetic female audience for some validation of their own latest pool theories.

We've wondered if subconciously there's a fear that she's getting stronger and more solid, and they want to muck it up before she moves up another level. OR they want her improvement to be proof that their pet pool theories are better than the other guys' and then they can say, "See? I showed her that."
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Thank you, this is actually very helpful. The research I have done so far indicates that many women who play alone often get interrupted by men when playing.
 
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