Getting A Lesson From (Your Choice)
- Thread starter drivermaker
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OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
You Can't Go Back In Time & I Don't Think You Would Want To!
Drivermaker - As you said, I am a good storyteller. Those times sound adventurous, romantic & exciting. They were. But that was then & this is now. Back then it cost $14 to $22 a night for a nice room. It cost $15 - $18 to fill the gas tank. No one knew how well the game should & could be played unless they went to Johnston City. Every Town & Berg had its Best Player who everyone got behind.
I knew many a great card mechanic who couldn't get a game after Kreskin got on Johnny Carson and showed everyone "How It's Done".
Well Pool is & was the same way. Once Pool tournaments were available to the general public through TV, The knowledge was there and the damage was done. As much as I am a big fan of "The Hustler", it was the beginning of the end for pool hustlers.
I get excited & proud when I see how well the game has evolved. These kids now a days that I see at the major tournaments are great players and have their heads on a lot straighter than we did back then. They aren't concerned about earning a living at the game but are just trying their hearts out to be the best they can be.
Take Gabe Owens. I think he plays as good or better than almost any of the "Old Timers". Now don't get me wrong, Gabe is also a very good gambler and knows "How To Win", but he doesn’t hustle. He goes after other players who can lose a lot and know who he is. That’s not hustling, that’s Gun fighting and he knows "How To Manage". That’s The Key. He doesn’t use deception, he uses experience & skill.
I used to figure it took $65 a day for me to break even "On The Road".
It really was - "One Day, Chicken - And The Next Day Feathers".
Now it would take at least $200 a day per person and you know what? The same players who played $10 Nine Ball back then, are STILL playing $10 Nine Ball NOW.
It's like being a blacksmith. It can't be done anymore.
I literally Thank God that I had the idea to start my company once we started a family. I would hate the idea of trying to raise & support my kids & our lifestyle while hustling pool. The ironic part of it is that the experiences and management knowledge that I developed from hustling pool were also very instrumental and successful in the business world.
TY & GL
Drivermaker - As you said, I am a good storyteller. Those times sound adventurous, romantic & exciting. They were. But that was then & this is now. Back then it cost $14 to $22 a night for a nice room. It cost $15 - $18 to fill the gas tank. No one knew how well the game should & could be played unless they went to Johnston City. Every Town & Berg had its Best Player who everyone got behind.
I knew many a great card mechanic who couldn't get a game after Kreskin got on Johnny Carson and showed everyone "How It's Done".
Well Pool is & was the same way. Once Pool tournaments were available to the general public through TV, The knowledge was there and the damage was done. As much as I am a big fan of "The Hustler", it was the beginning of the end for pool hustlers.
I get excited & proud when I see how well the game has evolved. These kids now a days that I see at the major tournaments are great players and have their heads on a lot straighter than we did back then. They aren't concerned about earning a living at the game but are just trying their hearts out to be the best they can be.
Take Gabe Owens. I think he plays as good or better than almost any of the "Old Timers". Now don't get me wrong, Gabe is also a very good gambler and knows "How To Win", but he doesn’t hustle. He goes after other players who can lose a lot and know who he is. That’s not hustling, that’s Gun fighting and he knows "How To Manage". That’s The Key. He doesn’t use deception, he uses experience & skill.
I used to figure it took $65 a day for me to break even "On The Road".
It really was - "One Day, Chicken - And The Next Day Feathers".
Now it would take at least $200 a day per person and you know what? The same players who played $10 Nine Ball back then, are STILL playing $10 Nine Ball NOW.
It's like being a blacksmith. It can't be done anymore.
I literally Thank God that I had the idea to start my company once we started a family. I would hate the idea of trying to raise & support my kids & our lifestyle while hustling pool. The ironic part of it is that the experiences and management knowledge that I developed from hustling pool were also very instrumental and successful in the business world.
TY & GL
Breisath must have changed since those days. When he came to Calgary afew years ago alot of the locals wanted a piece of him for the cash but he wanted none of it. If a guy cannot use his own teachings to beat the master level amatures in a city what can he do for any pool player that they cannot do for themselves. If you are meant to be good you will get good, if not, you wont. No instructer is going to make you a pro unless you are naturally good enough to be a pro without them. Every single top player I know got to that level based on their own self taught knowledge and practice and competition, noone actually sat down in a instructive form and taught them anything. The best lesson is playing the top players and getting beat on until you learn to fight back and win. Instructors I feel take advantage of alot of B level players in that they actually make it seem that they will make that player as good as that player wants to be, or that they can increase the level that player can reach. I disagree, a player can get to their peak level without a instructor, and an instructor is not going to be able to make a player better then that player can make themselves if they just learn by playing the better players.
Thats my 2 cents.
Thats my 2 cents.
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
Celtic- I couldn't dis-agree with you more. While you are correct that the best teacher is competitive play (especially with better players), you are just plain wrong to think that Any player at ANY level can't be helped in a particular aspect of their game. I have seen MANY young players playing or practicing and approached them and asked if they would like some help with their game. I had noticed something fundamentally wrong with something they were doing. I am not any kind of teacher or instructor but it just goes against my grain to see a young player doing something THAT wrong and not take the time to help.
I know for a fact that there are MANY current pros that seek out help with the mental AND physical aspects of their game. It is very easy to start to develop bad habits that you don't even realize. It takes an educated instructor to analyze your game to correct it.
As far as your comments about Breisath not wanting to play for the cash while in your fair city - I don't blame him - neither would I - Breisath was NEVER into the gambling aspect as much as many of those days. I know for a fact that when WE played - he was being staked, but so what? Does that mean that Breisath wasn't a Great player & now one of the most respected teachers/instructor available? I DON'T THINK SO!
Many of the great players of yesterday & today choose not to bet their own cash. Why should they bet their own when there was "Backers" waiting to let them play for 50% if they win AND 0% investment when they loose.
I personally never had or used a "Backer" when playing but that was because I was almost always hustling and knew exactly "Where I was at"
As I have stated many times in the past to family & friends –
"I HATE TO GAMBLE - BUT I LOVE TO BET"!
TY & GL
I know for a fact that there are MANY current pros that seek out help with the mental AND physical aspects of their game. It is very easy to start to develop bad habits that you don't even realize. It takes an educated instructor to analyze your game to correct it.
As far as your comments about Breisath not wanting to play for the cash while in your fair city - I don't blame him - neither would I - Breisath was NEVER into the gambling aspect as much as many of those days. I know for a fact that when WE played - he was being staked, but so what? Does that mean that Breisath wasn't a Great player & now one of the most respected teachers/instructor available? I DON'T THINK SO!
Many of the great players of yesterday & today choose not to bet their own cash. Why should they bet their own when there was "Backers" waiting to let them play for 50% if they win AND 0% investment when they loose.
I personally never had or used a "Backer" when playing but that was because I was almost always hustling and knew exactly "Where I was at"
As I have stated many times in the past to family & friends –
"I HATE TO GAMBLE - BUT I LOVE TO BET"!
TY & GL
An instructor doesn't have to be a great player to be a great instructor, imo. You can look at other sports to see this, especially tennis. Brad Gilbert wasn't the best tennis player out there but he's pretty good coach, maybe one of the best. I totally agree with OHB that bad habits can creep into your game without you even realizing it. If you have a good working relationship with someone that can watch your game and give you pointers, you're way ahead of the game.
I do agree with one thing you said Celtic and that's that there are a lot of players out there that play at the B level and may never get any better because that's their peak level. No amount of instruction will get someone to a level that is above their ability to play. That doesn't mean that someone cannot improve it just means they cannot be better than they're capable of being.
I do agree with one thing you said Celtic and that's that there are a lot of players out there that play at the B level and may never get any better because that's their peak level. No amount of instruction will get someone to a level that is above their ability to play. That doesn't mean that someone cannot improve it just means they cannot be better than they're capable of being.
Ralf Soquet had two weeks of lessons from Bert Kinister just prior to Ralf's hitting the big time. Is Mark Wilson the same Mark Wilson who left Florida about a year ago? Did Mark team up with Bert? Hard to keep up with all the rumors.
Watching a Jerry Brieseth video tells me I would love to be a student of his.
Or Mike Sigel. But I can't afford $500 per hour.
From what I have heard, many pros, although excellent players, do not have the ability to teach. They don't know how to taylor their instruction to the individual student.
But then, I am at the point, due to age, where my game is not going to get much better and if it does then what will I do with it? I don't gamble and I win more often then I lose which gives me great satisfaction. So now I really enjoy watching the pros play and take pleasure in knowing the skill required to do what they make look so easy.
Jake
Watching a Jerry Brieseth video tells me I would love to be a student of his.
Or Mike Sigel. But I can't afford $500 per hour.
From what I have heard, many pros, although excellent players, do not have the ability to teach. They don't know how to taylor their instruction to the individual student.
But then, I am at the point, due to age, where my game is not going to get much better and if it does then what will I do with it? I don't gamble and I win more often then I lose which gives me great satisfaction. So now I really enjoy watching the pros play and take pleasure in knowing the skill required to do what they make look so easy.
Jake
One thing that has occurred to me reading this thread is that, at least for me, "who would you like one lesson from?" and "Who would you want a long series of lessons from?" are very different questions. For one lesson, I'd rather go to one of the game's living legends in the hope of gaining unique insights into what makes the very best better than the nearly best. Hence, I'll stick with my choice of Nick Varner, to my knowledge the only player that has won a world championshiop in eight ball, nine ball, one pocket, and straight pool. For a long series of lessons , though, I, like so many others in this thread, would probably rather go to somebody like Gerry, Mark or Grady with a time-tested, proven curriculum that addresses each and every aspect of the game.
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A little over a year ago I went to a tuesday night tournament and saw Dan Lavoie playing Nick Varner $50 sets. The outcome was a foregone conclusion. I didn't enter the tournament and instead decided to watch them play. Dan had just sold the pool room. Throughout the match Varner would give Dan helpful tips and pointers and discuss how shots should be played. Or why he played a shot the way he did. later I found out Dan wasn't concerned about losing the money - he considered it an investment - a way to get lessons from a master.
By the way, how is Varner doing after his surgery?
Jake
By the way, how is Varner doing after his surgery?
Jake
jjinfla said:
Jake, I don't know anything about Nick's health, but I hope he's well.
Great story you tell. Play with ongoing analysis pays great dividends, but when the analysis is that of Nick Varner, Dan, as well as onlookers had a chance to find out how a true champion thinks. For $50 a set, my slant on it is that Dan got great value that night.
RickW and Celtic,
I would have to disagree, in some aspects, with your assessment of "nature vs. nurture" and with your assessment of the playing abilities of Mark W. and Jerry B. Both of those instructors have straight pool high runs near 200 on tough equipment - geez that's strong, better than most active tournament pro's can do (Johnny Archer told me his high run is about 200, but he didn't specify on what type of equipment). I've seen them play, and they play as well as any touring pro (in my opinion). Also, I totally believe that a player that wants to change their game completely, and is willing to follow their instruction completely, can become an "A" player - no question. If you want them to take a player with a bad or flawed stroke, who insists on keeping that stroke, and make them an "A" player, that may not be possible. Now you both may be correct though about reaching professional caliber, perhaps there is some innate talent necessary to reach that level, but somehow I doubt that there aren't a lot of people that could get there with intense practice and proper instruction. Without proper instruction, and with technically flawed strokes, I think the number is very small as Celtic seems to be saying. JMO. I also think that lesson's from a top competing pro fit in very well with lesson's from the "stroke guru's." Having said all that, yes I agree that most top players probably got there without a lot (or any) of formal instruction, and many succeeded even with technical flaws - but thats not the only way. Maybe with better, more technically sound instruction earlier in life, there would be more people reaching that professional level.
P.S. - Me banging balls on my own for 15 years = C player.
Me changing my stroke with the stroke guru's, and lessons with a top pro for 2 years, practicing 2 hours a day = A player (or at least very close, making progress by leaps and bounds, just beat an A level player 19 - 4 at 8 ball today).
P.P.S. - My real goal now, getting back to the original thread, is for a lesson with Jim Rempe or Mike Sigel or Nick Varner or Steve Mizerak or Gene Nagy. These guys HAVE to know something about straight pool.
I would have to disagree, in some aspects, with your assessment of "nature vs. nurture" and with your assessment of the playing abilities of Mark W. and Jerry B. Both of those instructors have straight pool high runs near 200 on tough equipment - geez that's strong, better than most active tournament pro's can do (Johnny Archer told me his high run is about 200, but he didn't specify on what type of equipment). I've seen them play, and they play as well as any touring pro (in my opinion). Also, I totally believe that a player that wants to change their game completely, and is willing to follow their instruction completely, can become an "A" player - no question. If you want them to take a player with a bad or flawed stroke, who insists on keeping that stroke, and make them an "A" player, that may not be possible. Now you both may be correct though about reaching professional caliber, perhaps there is some innate talent necessary to reach that level, but somehow I doubt that there aren't a lot of people that could get there with intense practice and proper instruction. Without proper instruction, and with technically flawed strokes, I think the number is very small as Celtic seems to be saying. JMO. I also think that lesson's from a top competing pro fit in very well with lesson's from the "stroke guru's." Having said all that, yes I agree that most top players probably got there without a lot (or any) of formal instruction, and many succeeded even with technical flaws - but thats not the only way. Maybe with better, more technically sound instruction earlier in life, there would be more people reaching that professional level.
P.S. - Me banging balls on my own for 15 years = C player.
Me changing my stroke with the stroke guru's, and lessons with a top pro for 2 years, practicing 2 hours a day = A player (or at least very close, making progress by leaps and bounds, just beat an A level player 19 - 4 at 8 ball today).
P.P.S. - My real goal now, getting back to the original thread, is for a lesson with Jim Rempe or Mike Sigel or Nick Varner or Steve Mizerak or Gene Nagy. These guys HAVE to know something about straight pool.
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OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
Rickw - While I have never played Bucktooth, I have won some $$$ from him in Vegas. I would not call him a Hustler. He seemed to me to just be a High Rolling Sucker. He tries to High Roll his victims and sometimes gets stung by one or two along the way. Thats what happened in Vegas. We got him for 16K and he never knew who he was playing. He is the kind of sucker that if you give him enough rope he will hang himself.
Great Story - Larry Hubbard & I were in the cafe lounge at the Tropicana and about 3 booths away, Here was Bucktooth with 3 hookers. We had him paged for a phone call and listened as the page went through out the lounge. - "Mr. Tooth, Mr. B. Tooth". We all were all laughing so loud that he knew it was us. So What - we had just beaten him out of the $16K.
TY & GL
Great Story - Larry Hubbard & I were in the cafe lounge at the Tropicana and about 3 booths away, Here was Bucktooth with 3 hookers. We had him paged for a phone call and listened as the page went through out the lounge. - "Mr. Tooth, Mr. B. Tooth". We all were all laughing so loud that he knew it was us. So What - we had just beaten him out of the $16K.
TY & GL
Willie,
I congratulate you on the improvement with your game. However, about some players not being able to improve to any level, we must agree to disagree because I know that there are people out there that will never make it to A player status let alone pro status no matter how much they learn. I know a player that spends an inordinate amount of time practicing drills, going through instructional books, tapes, you name it. He's had personal instruction and he's not going to make it to A player status, not in this lifetime. I just think there are some people for whatever reasons are not meant to rise much higher in certain endeavors. I do think instruction can improve their game up to a certain level but they will not go beyond a predetermined level that is considered their top level of ability. Most people never get to their top level and some get pretty close and that is usually predicated on motivation and desire. Efren may not be operating near his potential and Johnny Archer might be close to his. Who knows for sure? One thing is for sure though and that is that everyone has a certain level of ability that is based on natural skills plus desire and motivation and sometimes all the desire in the world cannot take you beyond what you are capable of doing. Do people do amazing things? Of course they do and I'm not trying to discount that and certainly do not want to discourage people but not everyone, no matter how much motivation and desire can be an Efren, Johnny, Mika, etc. Sorry but I didn't make the rules I just know they're there.
I'm a disabled vet and my disablilty is with my eyesight. Given my condition, most people would think that I would not be able to shoot a very good game of pool. Opthalmologists that have examined me over the years find it amuzing that my passion is pool. In spite of that, I was rated a 96 in the USPPA about 3 years ago and managed to win almost $700, I took 9th to 12th. I don't usually tell people about my visual problem but I think given what I said above, you might appreciate that I'm not a callous person saying people cannot improve their game, I'm just saying there are limits and as Clint Eastwood said, "A man has got to know his limitations."
I congratulate you on the improvement with your game. However, about some players not being able to improve to any level, we must agree to disagree because I know that there are people out there that will never make it to A player status let alone pro status no matter how much they learn. I know a player that spends an inordinate amount of time practicing drills, going through instructional books, tapes, you name it. He's had personal instruction and he's not going to make it to A player status, not in this lifetime. I just think there are some people for whatever reasons are not meant to rise much higher in certain endeavors. I do think instruction can improve their game up to a certain level but they will not go beyond a predetermined level that is considered their top level of ability. Most people never get to their top level and some get pretty close and that is usually predicated on motivation and desire. Efren may not be operating near his potential and Johnny Archer might be close to his. Who knows for sure? One thing is for sure though and that is that everyone has a certain level of ability that is based on natural skills plus desire and motivation and sometimes all the desire in the world cannot take you beyond what you are capable of doing. Do people do amazing things? Of course they do and I'm not trying to discount that and certainly do not want to discourage people but not everyone, no matter how much motivation and desire can be an Efren, Johnny, Mika, etc. Sorry but I didn't make the rules I just know they're there.
I'm a disabled vet and my disablilty is with my eyesight. Given my condition, most people would think that I would not be able to shoot a very good game of pool. Opthalmologists that have examined me over the years find it amuzing that my passion is pool. In spite of that, I was rated a 96 in the USPPA about 3 years ago and managed to win almost $700, I took 9th to 12th. I don't usually tell people about my visual problem but I think given what I said above, you might appreciate that I'm not a callous person saying people cannot improve their game, I'm just saying there are limits and as Clint Eastwood said, "A man has got to know his limitations."
Willie,
One more thing. Your ability level is probably A and perhaps beyond. Who knows, maybe you could become a pro. I would say the test for that is if you stop improving for a long time even if you're practicing and getting instruction.
As for instructors, I believe if you look again at my post, I didn't say anything disparaging about instructors. I believe a good instructor is essential to get to those next levels if you have the ability to get there.
One more thing. Your ability level is probably A and perhaps beyond. Who knows, maybe you could become a pro. I would say the test for that is if you stop improving for a long time even if you're practicing and getting instruction.
As for instructors, I believe if you look again at my post, I didn't say anything disparaging about instructors. I believe a good instructor is essential to get to those next levels if you have the ability to get there.
Rickw said:
RickW,
As usual, you bring up very good points. We may not be very far apart, I also agree some people will never make it (as you say not every one is a good student, or has the innate talent). I guess I just think more people could do it if appropriate instruction were widespread (though definitely not all people as you correctly point out). I think we will never know, unless we start seeing pool instruction in the grade schools.
P.S. - I definitely wasn't trying to brag about my improvement (there are many, many better players on this forum than me); the only reason I try to mention these things is that I am extraordinarily grateful to the people that have been helping me; because I never could have done it on my own (I know, because I didn't). It seems so simple now, but I sure wasn't finding it on my own. Being able to run racks, no matter the game, is just about the greatest feeling in sports - whether its for the cash, or for impressing your friends (oh, wait - I think it's the greatest feeling even when I'm alone, running balls in the basement - I must be a pool geek).
Willie,
I agree with you that one of the most exhilarating feelings is when you're running balls effortlessly and can park the cb anywhere you want on the table. I had a table at home and found that when people came over that were not pool fanatics like me, I could not play them because if I did, they'd get upset. I had a big house party and some guy comes over with a beautiful Joss cue in a real nice case and he asks me to play. Everyone is watching and I figure I gotta pull out my best game because it's my house man! This guy comes to my home and challenges me in front of all my people and hey, I gotta pull out all the stops. Well, I drill this guy! I mean I DRILL him! He was going to do some cement work for me around my house. After I beat him, I never saw him again. I dunno, maybe he went out and lost it. What was he thinking though? Anyway that and the fact that I couldn't get both cars in the garage prompted me to sell the table. Actually, I prefer playing in a poolhall anyway.
I agree with you that one of the most exhilarating feelings is when you're running balls effortlessly and can park the cb anywhere you want on the table. I had a table at home and found that when people came over that were not pool fanatics like me, I could not play them because if I did, they'd get upset. I had a big house party and some guy comes over with a beautiful Joss cue in a real nice case and he asks me to play. Everyone is watching and I figure I gotta pull out my best game because it's my house man! This guy comes to my home and challenges me in front of all my people and hey, I gotta pull out all the stops. Well, I drill this guy! I mean I DRILL him! He was going to do some cement work for me around my house. After I beat him, I never saw him again. I dunno, maybe he went out and lost it. What was he thinking though? Anyway that and the fact that I couldn't get both cars in the garage prompted me to sell the table. Actually, I prefer playing in a poolhall anyway.
I'm glad to hear all of the good things about Mark Wilson as I am scheduled to take lessons from him in three weeks! I am very excited about it.
I also found the posts about different speeds and inherent limitations pretty interesting. I currently consider myself a decent C player but my goal is to eventually be an A/A+ player. I just played in the county 8-ball tournament and finished 4th so I am pretty pleased with that and have the state 8-ball coming up next weekend.
Are any of you missouri guys coming to the State 8-ball tournament? If so drop me a line and we'll meet up and chat a bit. They are putting in BRAND NEW GOLD CROWN IVs with Simonis which are incredible.
I also found the posts about different speeds and inherent limitations pretty interesting. I currently consider myself a decent C player but my goal is to eventually be an A/A+ player. I just played in the county 8-ball tournament and finished 4th so I am pretty pleased with that and have the state 8-ball coming up next weekend.
Are any of you missouri guys coming to the State 8-ball tournament? If so drop me a line and we'll meet up and chat a bit. They are putting in BRAND NEW GOLD CROWN IVs with Simonis which are incredible.