Getting beat! Evaluation time?

[Snapshot9]

All of us play, and we all get beat some time. I am talking
about a money match, or in a good tournament. I have played
almost 44 years, and I feel I have a world of knowledge about
most games in Pool, and for the most part, the skill to play them
very well.
When I get beat by someone about my age, or older, I tend to
think that they have about as much knowledge and skill as I have,
but when I get beat by a much younger player, I analyze and
reanalyze the match several times. I truly try to evaluate whether
their skill is greater, their knowledge, and their experience.
Lots of times I come away feeling like thier skill is about the same,
but that they 'fell into' a simplier game than I did, and although
played well, did not do anything I couldn't have done if I had
their tables to run. In otherwards, the balls just rolled their way.
That if we had played on another day, I just as well could have won.
Two particular times come to mind, you know the ones that pop in
your head time and time again over the years.
Several years ago, I was playing in the Shooters Thanksgiving tournament
(the Fri/Sat/Sun after Thanksgiving), and I was in about the 4th
round on the winner's side of a tough 64 player tournament playing
8 ball. I had to play a Polock from the Chicago area that was a card
carrying Pro. He jumped out on me some, but I battled my way back,
making some great shots along the way. I could see his evaluation of
me changing as the match got further along. I was one game away
from hill-to-hill when he hooked me. I called a one rail kick (long ways)
to kick one of my balls into the foot left corner. The ball hit a few
inches from the corner on the rail and jiggled a little and roll out.
He ran the table out for the win. He played well, but I was certainly
within reach of him, and came away feeling like I had a good barometer
with to judge my own skill in the game.
The other time was about 4-5 years ago in the same annual tournament,
and I had to play Chad Vilmont, who had breezed into town for the
tournament with Jesse Bowman and his brother. He was hot out of
the gate, and I battled my way back to hill-to-hill with him, and he
ended up winning the last game. This was one on those times, playing
a younger player and getting beat. I evaluated his game, and my game
over and over in my head, and came away feeling like he was good, but
that I was 'not in over head' with him, and although he played well,
I still felt like if the set had been more difficult, that I would have won.

How do you feel when you get beat by a much younger player. What
type of conclusions to do come into after reviewing again in your head?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Have you been beaten by any younger players that you thought were better than you?

 

[sjm]

I'm sure that someone will make the argument that age has nothing to do with it, and the better player rates to win no matter what. For me, I find the initial post quite interesting. Each of us brings different weaponry to the pool table, and the suggestion that age is, at least to some extent, a factor seems reasonable to me.

To keep the analysis somewhat finite, I need to greatly oversimplify -

Some of us are great shotmakers
Some of us have great billiard knowledge
Some of us are superior tacticians

The "kind of racks" that ensue when two players match up at 9-ball will, most of the time, favor the skills of one player more than the other.

For example, racks containing a push favor the shotmaker. Irving Crane always argued that this was one reason nobody could beat Lassiter, who played in an era when there could be multiple pushes in a single rack of nineball.

Racks requiring complex position play or kicking sequences will tend to favor the player with supeiror billiard knowledge.

Racks in which the balls are sitting tough or clustered tend to favor the great tactical players.

There is certainly, at least to some extent, a random element to which kind of racks will arise in a match. I believe there is some truth in the suggestion that the younger players tend to be the better shotmakers, while the veteran players are better tacticians. That's why veteran players, when playing young talented players, often prefer that the racks are not too straightforward.

In practice, the veteran player rarely gets the kind of match that he/she wants against the young power player, for the simple reason that the young tedn to have very big breaks, reducing the likelihoood that a lot of tactical racks will arise.

All things considered, though, this whole topic is pretty tricky stuff. when you get beat, it's always evaluation time, but the analysis is no simple matter. Then again, when we lose, it's usually because we deserve to lose.

 

[straybullet]

I had to play a Polock from the Chicago area that was a card carrying Pro.......
He ran the table out for the win.

That's what card carrying Pro Polocks are supposed to do, Scott.

 

[Snapshot9]

Well yes ...

Have you been beaten by any younger players that you thought were better than you?

Colin ... I have been beat by younger players that are better than
me ... Let's see, one in particular comes to mind, Gabe Owen.
I have been beat by some players about 10 years younger, and
local. I am not a super player, but I do play pretty well, although
I am not sure if I shoot better now, than I did when in my early
and mid 20's. My knowledge is greater, but my imagination was
greater, I think, when I was younger. I suffer my losses like all
players do, from old and young alike ... lol Sometimes, they haunt
me, sometimes they don't ...

As nothing more than an offer for you to evaluate my skill level,
my high run of 9 ball on a bar table is 11 racks straight without
missing.

 

[2arm_bandit]

i'm a young player myself. i have to say that i can halfway agree with you on this one. you older guys do seem to know how to work the tables with jams and problems pretty good. i've noticed that in 8-ball and 1pckt the players i have most problems with are older guys. but when it comes to 9ball i feellike the quickness and fast pace of the game evens all that out. i can work out of a lot of jams and play great tactical pool when im only worrying about 9 balls. so what i'm trying to say is in a more mind consuming game yes, you guys definately have an advantage having years of experince with different shots. and to some point this is true with 9ball. but that 30 more years of experience you have doesnt do a whole lot when us young guys can just stay at the table most of the time

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin ... I have been beat by younger players that are better than
me ... Let's see, one in particular comes to mind, Gabe Owen.
I have been beat by some players about 10 years younger, and
local. I am not a super player, but I do play pretty well, although
I am not sure if I shoot better now, than I did when in my early
and mid 20's. My knowledge is greater, but my imagination was
greater, I think, when I was younger. I suffer my losses like all
players do, from old and young alike ... lol Sometimes, they haunt
me, sometimes they don't ...

As nothing more than an offer for you to evaluate my skill level,
my high run of 9 ball on a bar table is 11 racks straight without
missing.

Hey Snapsot,
An impressive run!!!

I was just trying to work out where you were coming from in the post...and bump it to get it moving

I worried that maybe you were one of those guys who can't stand being beaten and will never admit anyone is better than them.

Glad to see you're not.

I'm not that old (almost 40), but I've never thought much about if anyone is younger or older. And I don't analyze my opponents too much for a comparison. Sometimes there is a lucky set, but much less than I used to think. Most the time, win or lose I have some aspects of my game that I can find fault in and work to improve.

....losing track of thought now...drifting of topic perhaps...

 

[Jaden]

knowledge and experience

Older players should not make the mistake of assuming they hve more knowledge than younger players. When I play against older players, often I'll do something that they wouldn't have done, and the few times they have asked me to explain why I made the shot selection that I did, they realized it was not a stupid kid rushing to judgmetn and just shooting. I'm a little older now, but even when I was twenty one, I would play two and three way shots even in nineball, and at 19 I was regularly playing golf and BCA eightball.

 

[2arm_bandit]

Older players should not make the mistake of assuming they hve more knowledge than younger players. When I play against older players, often I'll do something that they wouldn't have done, and the few times they have asked me to explain why I made the shot selection that I did, they realized it was not a stupid kid rushing to judgmetn and just shooting. I'm a little older now, but even when I was twenty one, I would play two and three way shots even in nineball, and at 19 I was regularly playing golf and BCA eightball.

couldnt have said it better myself

 

[Snapshot9]

Yes, Colin

Hey Snapsot,
An impressive run!!!

I was just trying to work out where you were coming from in the post...and bump it to get it moving

I worried that maybe you were one of those guys who can't stand being beaten and will never admit anyone is better than them.

Glad to see you're not.

I'm not that old (almost 40), but I've never thought much about if anyone is younger or older. And I don't analyze my opponents too much for a comparison. Sometimes there is a lucky set, but much less than I used to think. Most the time, win or lose I have some aspects of my game that I can find fault in and work to improve.

....losing track of thought now...drifting of topic perhaps...

What I failed to mention about the run was it came at a time of
desperation, you know those times when you start praying to God
for a chance, you summon the Pool Gods, you cal upon Mother Nature,
and you repent all of your sins forever and ever ... one of those times.
I had not played in 5 months, going through a divorce, and thought a
little Pool would help my attitude and comfort me some. Well, i did something
I should have never done. I got into a 3 man ring game (I was the 3rd)
for $50 a man, or a $100 to the winner of each game. We ended up playing
31 hours total straight. At the time I made the run of 11 racks, I was
stuck $1,500 ... I called upon everything I could to bring all of my skill
to the surface and show it. After the 11 rack run, I did manage to get
even by the time we quit. I was exhausted by the time we finished.

This kind of raises another question in my mind though about whether
players are at their best in an offensive positon (start running racks and
get out ahead) or a defensive positon of being down and coming back.
Myself, I have thought I was a better defensive player than offensive
player. But, that is probably another thread ... lol

 

[Cardinal2B]

Hmmm...pretty much everybody I play is younger than I am! Jaden & 2arm rightfully point out that young doesn't mean stupid.

I know a young player who is a killer shotmaker, generally whips me good in 9-ball, I generally beat him in 14.1, and we more or less split 8-ball - however, I don't think he's stupid, he knows what he's trying to accomplish out there. However, I would say that I've got more patience than he does, or put the other way 'round, he's willing to take risks I won't. Now, that ain't necessarily stupid - he's young, he's got sharp eyes (ask anyone over 40 about this, you just do not see as well as you get older), he's a great shotmaker - so what I think is risky he maybe doesn't, or caculates the odds differently (what I see as a 50-50 proposition, he's going to see as maybe 65-35 in his favor). This works out well for him against me playing 9-ball (where shots tend to be longer so these old eyes are more of a handicap), but in 14.1, w/ the balls all crowded down at the business end, I don't need to make many longer shots, I just need to get on the table - so when he misses that 65-35 proposition, I think the penalty (when playing me) may be greater (in 14.1).

Does patience (or prudence) come with age? I don't know...maybe. You ought to get something in return for the sagging abs, flat feet, declining eyesight and receding hairline don't you think?

Youth is wasted on the young.
Getting old sucks ...but it beats the alternative.

 

[2arm_bandit]

the question of patience is a good one. i have to admit i'm not nearly as patient as i'd like to be on the pool table. this is why i have problems with one pocket and straight pool and i very rarely play either one. in 9ball however, i do seem to have enough patience to not shoot at everything and jam the other player up sometimes when i need to play safe.i know a few other talented players around my age and none of them seem to have the patience to play a long slow game of one pocket either. they may think they do but i know how the game is SUPPOSED to be played and they are rushing shots whether they know it or not

 

[BRKNRUN]

If youngsers had to rely on only the knowledge of the older generation. We would still be driving Model-Ts.

If it were not for the younger generation. Technology would not be advancing as it is...

I hate to break this to you...but each new generation has more knowledge than the prior.....How many 50 year olds do you know that can't operate a cell phone or computer??.....How many 15 year olds do you know that can't???

Do you think that perhaps the same may apply to pool knowledge??

 

[Cardinal2B]

If youngsers had to rely on only the knowledge of the older generation. We would still be driving Model-Ts.

If it were not for the younger generation. Technology would not be advancing as it is...

I hate to break this to you...but each new generation has more knowledge than the prior.....How many 50 year olds do you know that can't operate a cell phone or computer??.....How many 15 year olds do you know that can't???

Do you think that perhaps the same may apply to pool knowledge??

Absolutely.
Though I suspect that most advances (in automotive engineering, technology, and pool, too) are, in fact, reliant on - and build upon - prior knowledge accumulated by those going before us...Hey, I used to be young when I knew everything, too. Ahh, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.
So, maybe its just that I have to use old folks tactics to keep up.

 

[jjr183]

If youngsers had to rely on only the knowledge of the older generation. We would still be driving Model-Ts.

If it were not for the younger generation. Technology would not be advancing as it is...

I hate to break this to you...but each new generation has more knowledge than the prior.....How many 50 year olds do you know that can't operate a cell phone or computer??.....How many 15 year olds do you know that can't???

Do you think that perhaps the same may apply to pool knowledge??

This is just the nature of progress. One generation learns and evaluates knowledge and through understanding extends the material beyond what is currently known, therefore increasing the knowledge base. Since billiard knowledge is more readily available now than in say the 80's, the younger generation is able to become more proficient in a shorter period of time than players who came before. This is an iterative process, so don't be surprised if in another twenty years your writing something on the other end of this argument.

The main thing to concentrate on is the difference between knowledge and understanding. This is why I think that older players generally make for better one pocket players. In 9-ball most shots involve knowledge about how to pocket certain balls and get shape in a variety of ways or to play safeties that are pretty much self-evident once you have played the game seriously for a relatively small period of time. All of this is available in books and that will generally get you to the point where you can string racks together and compete at the highest levels. In one pocket, you are often confronted with a variety of shots about which you have the knowledge to execute correctly, but only through the understanding that is attained through years of experience can you truly understand the risks and consequences of each one and properly evaluate which shot is the correct one to take for the situation.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Absolutely.
Though I suspect that most advances (in automotive engineering, technology, and pool, too) are, in fact, reliant on - and build upon - prior knowledge accumulated by those going before us...Hey, I used to be young when I knew everything, too. Ahh, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.
So, maybe its just that I have to use old folks tactics to keep up.

Absolutly..I agree...Youngsters of every generation will take the knowledge of their forfathers and build upon it...

That is the whole "key" to this...It may have taken the previous generation 40 years to figure something out...However..Once it is figured out..It takes alot less time to teach it to the youngsters.....(Unless like in pool the teachings are hoarded by the elders)...I believe just in the last few years that has changed drastically....Now youngsters don't need to waist 40 years learning all the fundamentals through trial and error... They can learn them correctly right away and then spend the next 35 years making that process even better..

Just like in all sports...We think we have seen the best in Efren and Earl and Ronnie Allen...but that is only because we don't have the knowledge or visual understanding of just how good the future players can be..It's hard to believe that anyone can play better than these guys did...But there may be a 2 month old out there that will end up being able to give these guys the 7-out...

 

[BRKNRUN]

This is just the nature of progress. One generation learns and evaluates knowledge and through understanding extends the material beyond what is currently known, therefore increasing the knowledge base. Since billiard knowledge is more readily available now than in say the 80's, the younger generation is able to become more proficient in a shorter period of time than players who came before. This is an iterative process, so don't be surprised if in another twenty years your writing something on the other end of this argument.

The main thing to concentrate on is the difference between knowledge and understanding. This is why I think that older players generally make for better one pocket players. In 9-ball most shots involve knowledge about how to pocket certain balls and get shape in a variety of ways or to play safeties that are pretty much self-evident once you have played the game seriously for a relatively small period of time. All of this is available in books and that will generally get you to the point where you can string racks together and compete at the highest levels. In one pocket, you are often confronted with a variety of shots about which you have the knowledge to execute correctly, but only through the understanding that is attained through years of experience can you truly understand the risks and consequences of each one and properly evaluate which shot is the correct one to take for the situation.

I understand that it takes time to learn "experience"......However...and one pocket is a prime example...If "experience" was such an advantage, how come Ronnie Allen is not the best one pocket player around any more....Why are "youngsters" like Scott Frost so dominating??? Ronnie has way more experience than Scott does.

I think the youngsters have "changed the game" and have now brought more shot making into the game of one pocket....(JMPO)

 

[AuntyDan]

Just like in all sports...We think we have seen the best in Efren and Earl and Ronnie Allen...but that is only because we don't have the knowledge or visual understanding of just how good the future players can be..It's hard to believe that anyone can play better than these guys did...But there may be a 2 month old out there that will end up being able to give these guys the 7-out...

Sure, because by the time that 2 month old gets to play Efren in 18 years or so Efren will be shooting over the top of a walking frame!

Seriously though, there is a very valid point here. There's so much more publicly available information being disseminated now, in books, videos and on the Internet. And once this information has been recorded in any of these formats it essentially lives forever as part of the great mass consciousness of the sport. If anything the problem now is deciding how to filter all the information out there to find just what will work best for your own game.

 

[pete lafond]

I think pool has yet to experience the super star. Look how long it took a Michael Jordan or a Tiger woods to appear and lots more people dedicated themselves to these sports unlike billiards.

If big money pay offs exists in pool I think what we consider the cream will be the average pro. Today's 'A' player would be no better than a 'B'. Yes lots of people play pool but only once and a while, these other sports they play throughout high school, college and as social stuff, in volumes.

Consider statistics gets the more extreme outliers the more samples taken. We probably missed quite a few super stars just because of the sports inability to draw them in.

 

[Snapshot9]

thoughts ...

I agree that younsters get much more exposure to information
about Pool than when I grew up. When I grew up (60's) there
were a few books out there, but you used to mostly learn from
watching and thinking about it, then trying it. If you were indeed
lucky enough to have a good player take you under his wing, and
become a mentor for you.
Today, younsters have all types of communication channels open to
them, and can use them to help learn Pool faster than we did. As I
have stated before, your knowledge is more when you become older,
but I believe your imagination is much greater when you are younger,
which produces great shotmakers, and the added communication gets
younger players into the defensive aspect of Pool sooner.
But, there are those players that get hot after playing a couple of
years, are world beaters, then discover 5 years later they really don't
have the knowledge to be at the level they are considered, and some
have to go back and relearn some things about Pool to keep their game
at the level they want to.