I was kicking around the idea of buying an ob-2 partial and building up a shaft for my league cue. would have to go the partial route because it uses a wooden carom joint. the longer I thought about this however the more I thought I could build one from scratch, so I bought a laminated shaft taper from cuestock, a 12" balsa dowel, a bamboo ferrule from Dan trogdon and a short piece of carbon fiber arrow shaft. I'm gonna drill ten inches deep into the tip end of the shaft and insert the balsa dowel. around the end of the balsa I will glue in place a two inch piece of the arrow shaft letting one inch of the carbon to make a tenon for the bamboo ferrule. a piece of lignum vitae for the joint. 12 mm morakami tip. what u guys think? I built one up to practice with an old non laminated shaft I had laying around. the results were good.
Gonna build a low squirt shaft
- Thread starter the breed
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Took out and tried my prototype.
This was just an old 5/16-18 piloted shaft found from some house repo. I steamed and sanded out the shaft then cut the ferrule and tenon off. I drilled a 5/16 hole 10 inches deep into the tip end of the shaft. I took an 8mm balsa dowel that was 305mm long and placed a 2 inch piece of a gold-tip pro-22 carbon arrow shaft and glued it over the outside of the balsa dowel on one end. I cut 1 inch off the other end of the balsa dowel. I took a .340 drill and enlarged the hole drilled in the cue shaft for a depth of 1 inch to take the arrow shaft. I then glued the balsa dowel and arrow shaft assembly into the end of the cue shaft. This left 1 inch of the arrow shaft filled with balsa extending out of the cue shaft to act as a tenon. I placed a laminated bamboo ferrule onto this tenon and a Karomi black pearl tip then after sealing and waxing took it up to the pub to try it out.
It played great. Was quite low deflection and had good feel. Tried it out compared to a friends 314^2 and a lucasi hybrid zero flexpoint slim and i would say it was generally equal in squirt (still at just under 13mm in diameter). Gonna change up the collar rings to match an old players hxt that a buddy has and hes gonna shoot with it. He liked it better than his lucasi.
I'm gonna do this to at least one more shaft before I go ahead and tackle the one for myself, but so far I'm very pleased with the outcome and it seems to me this is something that can be done to about any shaft to make it lower deflection for cheap.
This was just an old 5/16-18 piloted shaft found from some house repo. I steamed and sanded out the shaft then cut the ferrule and tenon off. I drilled a 5/16 hole 10 inches deep into the tip end of the shaft. I took an 8mm balsa dowel that was 305mm long and placed a 2 inch piece of a gold-tip pro-22 carbon arrow shaft and glued it over the outside of the balsa dowel on one end. I cut 1 inch off the other end of the balsa dowel. I took a .340 drill and enlarged the hole drilled in the cue shaft for a depth of 1 inch to take the arrow shaft. I then glued the balsa dowel and arrow shaft assembly into the end of the cue shaft. This left 1 inch of the arrow shaft filled with balsa extending out of the cue shaft to act as a tenon. I placed a laminated bamboo ferrule onto this tenon and a Karomi black pearl tip then after sealing and waxing took it up to the pub to try it out.
It played great. Was quite low deflection and had good feel. Tried it out compared to a friends 314^2 and a lucasi hybrid zero flexpoint slim and i would say it was generally equal in squirt (still at just under 13mm in diameter). Gonna change up the collar rings to match an old players hxt that a buddy has and hes gonna shoot with it. He liked it better than his lucasi.
I'm gonna do this to at least one more shaft before I go ahead and tackle the one for myself, but so far I'm very pleased with the outcome and it seems to me this is something that can be done to about any shaft to make it lower deflection for cheap.
low squirt
I really like what you are doing. I love to see people engineering their own solutions to common design problems.
I believe it was Roger Penske who first prescribed "Increase simplicity and add lightness" as a winning formula.
What makes a shaft low squirt is low tip end mass. So, with the above in mind, why not just leave off the ferrule and all that other stuff and go from there? What you get is very low squirt, the hit quality is most excellent and the parts are inexpensive and install quickly. Sounds good too. Be sure to use a disc under the tip if you like thin tips. Full tips are fine without it.
All the shafts I make are all like this.
Only one person has ever wanted a ferrule installed, which I did for free.
Where did you get your balsa dowel, or did you make it?
Robin Snyder
I really like what you are doing. I love to see people engineering their own solutions to common design problems.
I believe it was Roger Penske who first prescribed "Increase simplicity and add lightness" as a winning formula.
What makes a shaft low squirt is low tip end mass. So, with the above in mind, why not just leave off the ferrule and all that other stuff and go from there? What you get is very low squirt, the hit quality is most excellent and the parts are inexpensive and install quickly. Sounds good too. Be sure to use a disc under the tip if you like thin tips. Full tips are fine without it.
All the shafts I make are all like this.
Only one person has ever wanted a ferrule installed, which I did for free.
Where did you get your balsa dowel, or did you make it?
Robin Snyder
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If you go out to billiards.colostate.edu you will find an 8 or 9 part series on Squirt and Cue Deflection. Some of it gets pretty technical but its a good read if you want to design your own LD shaft.
The basic premise as Robin said is low endmass. This is generally done with a ferrule that is lighter than the maple and more flexible on a stiff shaft. Something has to give, either the tip deflects (giving low deflection on the cueball) or the cueball deflects (which gives you Squirt). Another method used is to make the last several inches of the shaft hollow, which Predator does. They use a radial lam shaft (isn't it 11 slices now??) which makes it stiff, its hollow inside making it lighter and the lightweight ferrule. On their latest shafts they went with a shorter ferrule and changed the type of material to Maxlite??. Not sure why but I did not like the Z2 shaft. I really like the 314.
I may not have summed that 100% accurately. Read the articles and makes your own determination. Let us know what you come up with.
The basic premise as Robin said is low endmass. This is generally done with a ferrule that is lighter than the maple and more flexible on a stiff shaft. Something has to give, either the tip deflects (giving low deflection on the cueball) or the cueball deflects (which gives you Squirt). Another method used is to make the last several inches of the shaft hollow, which Predator does. They use a radial lam shaft (isn't it 11 slices now??) which makes it stiff, its hollow inside making it lighter and the lightweight ferrule. On their latest shafts they went with a shorter ferrule and changed the type of material to Maxlite??. Not sure why but I did not like the Z2 shaft. I really like the 314.
I may not have summed that 100% accurately. Read the articles and makes your own determination. Let us know what you come up with.
I bought the balsa dowels on ebay, ten for like ten dollars. I went with a ferrule cause I wanted to keep the shaft length. also the balsa, carbon fiber, and bamboo ferrule are all lighter in weight than maple. I use some paper tip pads with any maple or bamboo ferrules that I install. I am thinking about getting some thin carbon fiber like ob uses.
I think it would be cool to do this as a conversion for peoples standard shafts. its really not that difficult to do and it works really well. I'm gonna kick it around with some of my league friends around here.
I think it would be cool to do this as a conversion for peoples standard shafts. its really not that difficult to do and it works really well. I'm gonna kick it around with some of my league friends around here.
Something I believe that you are missing in your design.
The shaft will flex or deflect more if it is hollow. If you fill it with, even a very light weight material, balsa or carbon fiber, it might be stiffer and deflect more than the original. The end mass will be lighter but it will be stiffer.
The reason for this is the fact that you glue in the filler. It is like those that core a cue butt. It is stiffer even if you core it with the same material. The tube of glue that surrounds the core is the stiffener. If you attempt to bend the shaft one side stretches and the other side compresses. The glue will suppress that.
I will give you an example. Amateur radio (ham radio) operators stiffen a tubular antenna by running a rope or string down the center of the tube and knot it at both ends and leave it under tension. It will keep the tubular antenna from being too flexible and even stronger.
just something to think about
Kim
The shaft will flex or deflect more if it is hollow. If you fill it with, even a very light weight material, balsa or carbon fiber, it might be stiffer and deflect more than the original. The end mass will be lighter but it will be stiffer.
The reason for this is the fact that you glue in the filler. It is like those that core a cue butt. It is stiffer even if you core it with the same material. The tube of glue that surrounds the core is the stiffener. If you attempt to bend the shaft one side stretches and the other side compresses. The glue will suppress that.
I will give you an example. Amateur radio (ham radio) operators stiffen a tubular antenna by running a rope or string down the center of the tube and knot it at both ends and leave it under tension. It will keep the tubular antenna from being too flexible and even stronger.
just something to think about
Kim
carbon fiber, balsa and bamboo all have a lower density than maple. I agree a ferrule-less design is lighter in endmass than plastic (even titan, xtc, and maxlite), but not lighter than bamboo. not even close. i have laminated bamboo and laminated maple ferrules. the bamboo weights half for equivalent volume.
The shafts stiffness is irrelevant to cue ball squirt as is tip hardness. The shaft never has time to flex while the tip is in contact with the ball. inertia is all that matters. companys use radially laminated shafts to increase stiffness which allows the shaft to be made smaller therefore lighter. The reason inertia and endmass is all thats important is because a tip and ball are only in contact for about .001 seconds. This is also the reason why the end weight is only important to the first 6-8 inches of the shaft. The speed of sound in maple versus this contact time only equates to 6-8 inches.
The shafts stiffness is irrelevant to cue ball squirt as is tip hardness. The shaft never has time to flex while the tip is in contact with the ball. inertia is all that matters. companys use radially laminated shafts to increase stiffness which allows the shaft to be made smaller therefore lighter. The reason inertia and endmass is all thats important is because a tip and ball are only in contact for about .001 seconds. This is also the reason why the end weight is only important to the first 6-8 inches of the shaft. The speed of sound in maple versus this contact time only equates to 6-8 inches.
The balsa is there to help dampen the shaft. The waveforms that travel down that shaft during contact make the shaft act more stiff and heavier than it really is. The difference in materials density should help to break up and dissipate these waves. its the same reason that ob and predators are filled with a foam. They dont use balsa cause its harder to install into a shaft. Jacoby uses balsa however i believe.
Well, no. Carbon fiber and bamboo both sink. I just tried it. This means they have a specific gravity of more than 1.0. Since maple floats, it must have a specific gravity of less than 1.0. My chart lists hard maple at 0.72.
Robin Snyder
Edit: I believe everyone but Predator fills the hole with something because Predator has a patent on hollow shafts to reduce squirt.
2nd Edit: I see you think Predator shafts are foam filled. They are not.
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Just wait until you are 55. You will get your low squirt shaft Buddy.
Read this:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/aug07.pdf
This state that if the shaft end is stiffer with little sideway movement the theory of "opposite and equal reaction" will cause the cueball to squirt more. So that would mean not using a ferrule would give it a fair amount of deflection since the only thing that is going to give is the tip.
I just know by shooting with dozen of cues over the years that the shafts with hard ferrules throws the ball offline more. Shoot with a softer ferrule like on the Meucci's and you get a more accurate line of travel. The tip may only be in contaact for a fraction of a second but going by the pictures in the above link its enough to move that tip quite a bit.
Not trying to say anyone is wrong or right just putting up a point of view.
Good thread!
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/aug07.pdf
This state that if the shaft end is stiffer with little sideway movement the theory of "opposite and equal reaction" will cause the cueball to squirt more. So that would mean not using a ferrule would give it a fair amount of deflection since the only thing that is going to give is the tip.
I just know by shooting with dozen of cues over the years that the shafts with hard ferrules throws the ball offline more. Shoot with a softer ferrule like on the Meucci's and you get a more accurate line of travel. The tip may only be in contaact for a fraction of a second but going by the pictures in the above link its enough to move that tip quite a bit.
Not trying to say anyone is wrong or right just putting up a point of view.
Good thread!
Brian- I agree with all of this, except that I think the net gain from using relatively the soft plastics which are relatively massive as compared to maple is smaller than the gain from using no ferrule at all and enjoying the benefits of reduced end mass. Ferrule compliance may well be important but I think tip mass is the gorilla in the room.
Robin Snyder
Edit- One example of this: Occasionally I install MasonH ferrules, which are VERY hard, but also the lightest ferrule material available, crazy light according the last list published on here. And they are very low squirt indeed, in spite of being very hard, just in my very casual, absolutely unscientific testing.
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Concerning "lucasi zero flexpoint and universal smart shafts"
I believe these are both Bill Stroud designs, for sure the SmartShaft is.
They both have super compliant ferrule systems, and both seem to take steps to reduce tip weight. So the question is are these designs superior to ferrule-less shafts?
A trick high-compliance ferrule system is a nice bit of engineering which can be licensed to cue companies, a nice income I'll bet.
A ferrule-less shaft involves no sale-able technology. In fact, the shaft is
"De-evolutionized", to quote DEVO, to how they were in the beginning...
And they are extremely low squirt.
Now, if you were to drill a hole in the middle, even further reducing end mass, clearly in violation of Predator's patents, well, that would just be between you and your conscience......
Robin Snyder
I believe these are both Bill Stroud designs, for sure the SmartShaft is.
They both have super compliant ferrule systems, and both seem to take steps to reduce tip weight. So the question is are these designs superior to ferrule-less shafts?
A trick high-compliance ferrule system is a nice bit of engineering which can be licensed to cue companies, a nice income I'll bet.
A ferrule-less shaft involves no sale-able technology. In fact, the shaft is
"De-evolutionized", to quote DEVO, to how they were in the beginning...
And they are extremely low squirt.
Now, if you were to drill a hole in the middle, even further reducing end mass, clearly in violation of Predator's patents, well, that would just be between you and your conscience......
Robin Snyder
I'm wondering if the compliant ferrules on the lucasi and universal shafts allow the tip/ferrule combination to be effectively separate from the end mass of the shaft on impact? therefore the effective endmass is that of the ferrule and tip only. seems the ferrule can flex to the side a small amount separate from the tenon and rest of shaft. the initial deflection force would be on this elastic member inside of the ferrule.
I could be wrong on this, but, years ago I used to watch a show called Mr. Wizard on nickelodeon. Big science guy and tought kids about it through experiments.
I recall an episode that discussed strength in pipes. He took a weight and 2 pipes, same o.d. but 1 was hollow, the other solid.
He tied the weight to the middle of the solid pipe and it bowed pretty badly. Next he did the same to the hollow tube and it didn't bow hardly at all.
So my question is, how can a hollow shaft flex more than a solid one?
Nathan (this is getting good) :thumbup:
Look at this density chart of various woods. There are other factors that might contribute to your experiment of the bamboo sinking and the maple not.
Wood Density Chart
That's interesting. It might have been a case where the mass of the solid rod was such that it was already close to bending, and the added external weight pushed it over the edge.
When things are in bending, like a beam, they have a neutral axis. Material on one side of the neutral axis will be in compression. The opposite side will be in tension. And the neutral axis will be neutral. The further out you go from the neutral axis the greater the compression or tension is. Its a linear relationship. In other words, the areas near the neutral axis don't need to resist as much compression or tension as the areas far from the neutral axis. This is why I-beams are "I" shaped. You can remove material from their centers (the neutral axis) and not lose much strength ,cause you still have material at their edges. But you save a lot of weight and money.
This is also why if you are drilling holes in your basement joists, you should drill them through the center, not near the top or bottom
This is also why a pipe is stronger than a rod, (per unit mass).