Goodbye APA, it's been fun...

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
ScottW said:
If the APA ruleset isn't your cup of tea either, then maybe you ('you' in general, not necessarily you, Icon) should consider doing the same.
I think thats a good idea... maybe I should look around to see what other options are in my area.
 

Rich R.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Icon of Sin said:
I think thats a good idea... maybe I should look around to see what other options are in my area.
You don't have too many options, in the BAltimore area.

To the best of my knowledge, there is a very small BCA presence in this area and I don't believe the VNEA is here at all.
Your only other option, for league play, is TAP, and there are more sandbaggers in TAP than in all of the other leagues put together.

If you want to play in leagues, in the Baltimore-Washington area, APA is the best choice.

Fortunately, if you are determined not to play in the APA, there are a lot of weekly tournaments around, if you don't mind going to a different pool room each night.
 

dooziexx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
UWPoolGod1 said:
I am glad that there is another option that compares to BCA so there are more larger tourneys. But after playing each sunday for 10 weeks to qualify for the regional tourney which was held in southern Oregon I was unimpressed by the turnout. It is a terrible location for a regional tourney and should be closer to Portland/Seattle somewhere. 51 players in the Open and 11 Masters. Pretty sad.

ACS is only 2 years old and theres quite a number of players in our area. Definitely cannot compare to BCA as far as members go but they are slowly growing. We just had our state championships over the weekend and we had probably a total of 660 players. There were 100+ in the open and quite a few in the Masters...
 

hustler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've known how the apa equalizer system works for some time. It relies too heavliy on innnings. ..and discourages good play. A few years ago I played a 5 in Vegas 9 ball nationals. According to APA St Louis headquarters the kid I played put in a 9 score . I don't know what my score was but i got moved UP even though I LOST and so did my team. Meanwhile this kid team finishes 2nd in country in 9 ball and 3rd in 8ball that same year. I am not whining ..but it is funny what you can get away with in the APA. Its all about the innings.
 

Gregg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rich R. said:
You don't have too many options, in the BAltimore area.

To the best of my knowledge, there is a very small BCA presence in this area and I don't believe the VNEA is here at all.
Your only other option, for league play, is TAP, and there are more sandbaggers in TAP than in all of the other leagues put together.

If you want to play in leagues, in the Baltimore-Washington area, APA is the best choice.

Fortunately, if you are determined not to play in the APA, there are a lot of weekly tournaments around, if you don't mind going to a different pool room each night.

But you can use a Jump CUE in TAP! Seems that some want to make that a deciding factor. Not to mention they use real 9 ball rules, eight ball, as has been traditionally, is called pocket, and you get choose after the break.
 

renard

Play in these conditions?
Silver Member
Snapshot9 said:
VNEA has been awhile, but I think VNEA uses handicaps in Vegas, at least, to best of my recollection.

Sorry snapshot but you guessed wrong. I was out there in Vegas last year and 6 years ago and no handicaps were used. They do have Masters players, Intermediate players and the Open players divisions.
 

Rich R.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Gregg said:
But you can use a Jump CUE in TAP! Seems that some want to make that a deciding factor.
First of all, I would never make the use of a jump cue as the deciding factor for anything. I don't care one way or the other. I have one and I can use it, but I don't have to.
Gregg said:
Not to mention they use real 9 ball rules, eight ball, as has been traditionally, is called pocket, and you get choose after the break.
In my area, I haven't seen any TAP 9-ball leagues, so I have no idea what rules they use. I wasn't aware that they had 9-ball leagues.

Also, I guess everyone has their own "traditions". "Traditionally", where I learned to play pool, the only shot you had to call, in 8-ball, was the 8-ball and there was no choice, after the break, if a ball was pocketed.

TAP always brings up the "call your shot" point when they are trying to convince people that their league is better. I play in the APA and, in fact, with players SL-4 and above, I haven't seen 5 balls slopped in, within the last year.

TAP would be a good league, if they attacked the sandbagging issue. There is definitely something wrong with their rating system.
When I played TAP, I saw one player go 13-0 and he was never budged from his SL-4 rating. BTW, he was rated at least an SL-6 in the APA. I also saw very good APA SL-7's playing as SL-5's in TAP. When you questioned them about the ratings, all they could do was laugh.
From what I saw, TAP is sandbaggers heaven.
 

crawdaddio

Used and registered
Silver Member
I haven't read ANY oh the replies to thid thread, but..............I have played APA for years up to the time I quit two years ago, and I have to say that the APA sucks ass and is biased.


~DC
 

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Snapshot9 said:
I think the poster from So. CAli must be confused, because you are right, BCA has handicaps in their leagues normally, BUT no handicaps at Nationals. That's why a lot of these local teams that may dominate locally end up at Vegas going 2 and out. It's the big stage.

VNEA has been awhile, but I think VNEA uses handicaps in Vegas, at least, to best of my recollection.

This is another reason why BCA is often referred to as the best, with VNEA next, and APA last. BCA promotes the true spirit of competition in Pool more. The APA is just silly with their handicaps and 23 rule. I played in APA 20-25 years ago before the 23 rule, and was a 7, which was the high handicap at the time.

All you have to do is to sit down, and do the math on all 3 handicap systems, and it is plain to see that BCA is the most accurate rating system.

Explain how the handicap system in the BCA works. BCA teams play at the local poolhall all the time, and it's 4 vs 4 8-ball, each team member plays each opposing team member one game for the whole night and then they are done. There are no handicapps. Other nights they play doubles 9-ball and it's not handicapped either.
 

8-ball bernie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
why be involved in the "same old same old?" forget the APA and forget the BCA they are one of the same, BIG DISSAPOINTMENTS, listen are you good? are you dedicated? are you serious about YOUR 8-ball skills, and do not care about your team mates? do YOU want to advance your enjoyment and you playing? if so, skip the BCA, and go right to the ultimate, go to www.internationalpooltour.com for as little as $100 you could be playing for millions of dollars with real rules, no handicaps, and no non sense, like team mates who are not on your thought waves, and who shouldn't be either, look god didn't put you here, to worry about team mates, fly on your own son, get involved in a qualifier, GO FOR IT!
 

dogginda9

I need a vacation.
Silver Member
8-ball bernie said:
why be involved in the "same old same old?" forget the APA and forget the BCA they are one of the same, BIG DISSAPOINTMENTS, listen are you good? are you dedicated? are you serious about YOUR 8-ball skills, and do not care about your team mates? do YOU want to advance your enjoyment and you playing? if so, skip the BCA, and go right to the ultimate, go to www.internationalpooltour.com for as little as $100 you could be playing for millions of dollars with real rules, no handicaps, and no non sense, like team mates who are not on your thought waves, and who shouldn't be either, look god didn't put you here, to worry about team mates, fly on your own son, get involved in a qualifier, GO FOR IT!
Bernie,
Have you been drinking again? You make me laugh. Thank you.
 

pharaoh68

Banned
KingCarom said:
I've played in the APA off and on since 1994, and had a really good time over the years, but this year I have come to the realization that this time is over and it's time to get serious about playing pool. So, I am going to contact Mark A. here in the Seattle area and find out what I need to know about the BCA, and go from there. Here's a few observations of the APA and the reason I'm leaving it:

Handicap system-
I think it's a total crock of you know what!
Firstly, has anyone ever seen this system? Does it exist on a spreadsheet or is it some type of software that performs calculations of a players last 15 games, then determine if they should go up or down? Or, is it up to the league operator, based on their potentially inconsistent observations of how a player has played recently. Is it subject to favoritism of one player over another? Or are rating kept static to "help" a team stay under their 23 rule cap for a spell?

From what I have witnessed, a league operator can arbitrarily move a player up or down based on their reputation or recent play, in order to match their SL more closely to "reality" I think this fact speaks volumes in terms of the integrity of the equalizer system. How can it be equal if the system allows judgment calls to be made like this? Where are the checks and balances?

I'm fed up with it if you can't tell, because in my League it seems like we have alot of people who should go up and don't, alot of people who shouldn't go up and do!
Equal(izer) my a$$!
Unfortunately, there are alot of motives for the league (some good, some bad) for it to stay that way.

All I can tell you about the rating system is that there is a computer program that the APA uses which figures ratings based on various laws of averages. I have seen it. It takes all of the necessary information (rating of the opponent, number of inning, win or loss, number of games it took to win, etc.) and compares it to set "generic averages" for specific skill levels. That is how it figures your rating.

Though you are right. An individual's rating can be changed without the aid of the computer. If enough people complain, a division rep can be assigned to watch you during league play and you can be changed based on his observations.

But the problem is that this system can be easily manipulated. For example. I am a SL 6 in APA 8 ball. But I'm probably a better player than 90% of the SL7s in my area. And when it comes to APA 9 ball, I went in as a six, deliberately lost the first few matches, and now I'm a five! I can play with the likes of 7s, 8s, and 9s, and win with ease because the handicap is enormous!

But ultimately, you are right. The APA will not challenge you and it is a joke. Leave! I did!
 

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
They are team handicaps

cuetechasaurus said:
Explain how the handicap system in the BCA works. BCA teams play at the local poolhall all the time, and it's 4 vs 4 8-ball, each team member plays each opposing team member one game for the whole night and then they are done. There are no handicapps. Other nights they play doubles 9-ball and it's not handicapped either.

They are team handicaps, not individual handicaps, and BCA doesn't figure
to a 4. BCA averages are based on 1-75 for 5 man 8 ball teams. The games are scored a 15 for a win (5 games times 15 = 75), and the loser gets the number of balls he made. 4 man teams, the averages range from 1-60 (4 games times 15 = 60). Perhaps you aren't in the league you think you are.
In VNEA, you get 10 for a win. And APA, who the hell cares?

The point being, the BCA has the most finite scoring rating system for averages, which is the most accurate for skill averages. The VNEA here
was originally 10 possible handicap system, went to 11, and now is at 13, which is second best, the APA is at 7, which it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that more sandbagging will occur with fewer handicap levels, and the least with more hanicap levels.
 

Gregg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rich R. said:
TAP would be a good league, if they attacked the sandbagging issue. There is definitely something wrong with their rating system.
When I played TAP, I saw one player go 13-0 and he was never budged from his SL-4 rating. BTW, he was rated at least an SL-6 in the APA. I also saw very good APA SL-7's playing as SL-5's in TAP. When you questioned them about the ratings, all they could do was laugh.
From what I saw, TAP is sandbaggers heaven.

No doubt. I have seen guys ranked literally all over the place. Current APA SL6 shooting as an SL3 in TAP, and one guy who seemed to be born an APA SL7 shooting as a SL5 for a few sessions before finally being moved up to a TAP SL7 (not many of those in TAP, mind you).

You get it bad at high level tournaments and money tournaments. You can see how they got there in the first place.

I put it this way with TAP vs APA; A weak SL4 in TAP will be completely out skilled by a strong SL4. In APA, the weak vs. strong SL4 will still have a chance. That's just my opinion.
 
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hobokenapa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hustler said:
I've known how the apa equalizer system works for some time. It relies too heavliy on innnings. ..and discourages good play. A few years ago I played a 5 in Vegas 9 ball nationals. According to APA St Louis headquarters the kid I played put in a 9 score . I don't know what my score was but i got moved UP even though I LOST and so did my team. Meanwhile this kid team finishes 2nd in country in 9 ball and 3rd in 8ball that same year. I am not whining ..but it is funny what you can get away with in the APA. Its all about the innings.

That is an oxymoron. You can't know how it works if you don't know why you lost and went up.
 

42NateBaller

AKA "Drambuie Dave"
Silver Member
No love for the APA here

I've seen too many SL4's beat 6's and 7's easily. One guy wins MVP almost every session for APA, goes to Vegas and is still a SL4. Ridiculous! I quit playing APA about 6 years ago. Many of the players and teams in my area left APA and play ACS, VNEA, or a few independent leagues that formed as alternatives to APA.

I play in the ACS 8-ball (5 players). The handicap is figured in the individual level, then added together for a team handicap. The difference between the two team's cumulative handicaps is spotted to the lower team divided over the 5 rounds of play. A game won is worth 10 points, the loser gets their ball count. An individual's handicap is figured by adding their scores and dividing by the number of matches played. I like this format, because it's easy to see where you're at in the handicap system. No mystical reviews and bumps up or down for unknown reasons.
 

BillyKoda

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play in the ACS 8-ball (5 players). The handicap is figured in the individual level said:
Nate, when you say the loser get's their ball count? does this mean the number of balls left subtracted from 10?

Thanks,
 

42NateBaller

AKA "Drambuie Dave"
Silver Member
BillyKoda said:
Nate, when you say the loser get's their ball count? does this mean the number of balls left subtracted from 10?

Sorry for not being more clear. The loser gets their ball count up to 7.
 

ljmoss

L J Moss
Silver Member
No Local Bca? Be Your Own Bca Operator-free Locations

I AM RESPONDING TO SOME OLD POSTS WITH PLAYERS UNHAPPY WITH THE APA AND WOULD LIKE TO JOIN BCA . IF YOU HAVE NO BCA IN YOUR AREA, YOU MAY PHONE THE BCA NATIONAL OFFICE IN NEVADA AND APPLY TO BECOME AN OPERATOR FOR YOUR AREA. THERE IS NO FRANCHISE FEE AS IN APA. PH. 866-USAPOOL TOLL FREE. ASK FOR BILL STOCK AND TELL HIM LJ MOSS TOLD YOU TO SPEAK TO HIM.
BCA HAS A NICE STRUCTURE WITH A FREE LEAGUE SYSTEM FOR TRACKING YOUR PLAYERS AND DOING YOUR LEAGUE REPORTING.
THE BCA IS STRONGER THAN EVER SINCE MARK GRIFFIN PURCHASED IT A FEW YEARS AGO FROM THE BILLIARD CONGRESS OF AMERICA.
THE NATIONAL 8 BALL TOURNAMENT HOSTS IN EXCESS OF 7500 PLAYERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
BESIDES BEING AN AVID PLAYER I BECAME A BCA OPERATOR 3 YEARS AGO AFTER PLAYING APA FOR 14 YEARS. ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS YOU MAY FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME ANYTIME.

LJMOSS
LJMOSS@AOL.COM
 
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