Goodbye APA, it's been fun...

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lets address that word then. If they weren't there, pool would grow how? That's what a blight does, right, restrict growth?
We have 1 guy who is capable of competing on the world stage. And 1 that almost is. What's restricting the development of top players?
-No money in pro pool while league taking lions share for decades.

Where are the advanced players coming from?
Not from league.
Old school, take your lumps and you work your way up. 30 plus hours a week playing all games. Learning from the better players.
-Playing on fisher price tables with league cut pockets under dumbed down rules, shooting one set on league night isn't gonna get anyone there.

Effect of league on pool rooms isn't all positive.
- I've seen all over upstate NY how league operaters do business. Cutting rooms out. Selling rooms out. Holding them hostage for peanuts.
League operators make much more than they payout. How many league players eventually quit once they realize there's no return on investment?

League just isn't pool as it should be. You can be the majority. You can say you are keeping pool alive, but it's a bastardization of what it is at it's best.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lol. You say BACK into pro pool like that's where the money started. That's my whole point - the money APA makes is a result of the work done by its founders and league operators, and would never be otherwise spent on pool.
And it’s a large amount of money. Enough money that if it did go back into pro tournaments then it would solve the money problem. That is why if the pro’s actually did it themselves it could lead to a very nice pro tournament set up.
Are you saying the original plan of the apa did not have thought of putting money into pro pool?
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We have 1 guy who is capable of competing on the world stage. And 1 that almost is. What's restricting the development of top players?
-No money in pro pool while league taking lions share for decades.
There's the fallacy in your thinking. "Lion's share". What makes you think pro pool deserves ANY share of that money?

Where are the advanced players coming from?
Not from league.
Old school, take your lumps and you work your way up. 30 plus hours a week playing all games. Learning from the better players.
-Playing on fisher price tables with league cut pockets under dumbed down rules, shooting one set on league night isn't gonna get anyone there.
Neither is old school, apparently. It's still available, yet nobody's taking that route.

Effect of league on pool rooms isn't all positive.
- I've seen all over upstate NY how league operaters do business. Cutting rooms out. Selling rooms out. Holding them hostage for peanuts.
League operators make much more than they payout. How many league players eventually quit once they realize there's no return on investment?

League just isn't pool as it should be. You can be the majority. You can say you are keeping pool alive, but it's a bastardization of what it is at it's best.
It's a rung in the ladder, just like little league and Pop Warner. It's near the bottom, just like them. Each rung in the ladder gets smaller as you go up. Advancing up the ladder requires increasing skill and a lot of sacrifice. As the skill increases, the rule sets you play by change appropriately. Think tee ball to MLB. The ball is set on a tee for you because the skill to throw a pitch or to hit a moving ball hasn't yet been developed. As players advance, the tees are removed and it becomes coach-pitch and eventually player-pitch. The playing field is smaller. Throughout that stage there are no winners or losers - many don't even keep score. Bastardized rules. The difference is tee ball and little league players are not expected to develop themselves into pros. There's pony league, colt league, high school, college, and minor leagues (A, AA, AAA), all financed in part by the pros, not little leagues. Rungs in the ladder that are fully developed, each getting smaller and harder as players progress. Those rungs don't exist or are severely broken in the sport of pool, but it's not the fault of the leagues, the bottom rungs on the ladder. They do their jobs, bring people in.

In my business 70% retention year-to-year is considered good. That means 30% of our customers every year are people who did not play the year before, meaning we gotta find that many customers just to stay the size we were last year. Why do the 30% leave? Most of it is out of the bottom skills, as people tried it out, decided it wasn't for them, and left. That's expected. It's also expected that people's life conditions change. They move, change jobs, have children, etc. There are also those who "develop out" of the system - that's where your "return on investment" comes in. They see the huge void between leagues and the pros, and decide the investment in time and money isn't worth their returns. Again, not the fault of leagues, if anything it's more the fault of professional pool. All of those successful leagues started out in the red. Players and coaches had "real" jobs, both during the season and in the offseason. I'm talking generations of players and coaches, not one or two. They sacrificed for decades, spent their entire careers to build the popularity of the sport, playing just for love of the game - the pros. Pool will not grow overnight. It will take generations of pros who are willing to stick at it and make those sacrifices.

As for operators in upstate New York who hold locations hostage, cut them out, etc., I don't know upstate New York, so I can't speak to that. I don't have the kind of market where I can move teams and tournaments willy-nilly. Maybe they don't either - I don't know. All I can say is that if it's not for a good reason (mistreatment of players, etc.) I don't think that's good business.
 
Last edited:

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And it’s a large amount of money. Enough money that if it did go back into pro tournaments then it would solve the money problem. That is why if the pro’s actually did it themselves it could lead to a very nice pro tournament set up.
Are you saying the original plan of the apa did not have thought of putting money into pro pool?
No it did not. There may have been thoughts of partnerships with the pros, which have been attempted over the years, each failing for one reason or another. Sponsors did add prize money to the pros (and APA has been a sponsor of both men and women pro tours at various times). Most failures were due to lack of organization at the pro level. I think APA realized the chasm that exists between league and pro made it impossible for them to benefit from such partnerships. They do sponsor some individual players now, but not tours or purses.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No it did not. There may have been thoughts of partnerships with the pros, which have been attempted over the years, each failing for one reason or another. Sponsors did add prize money to the pros (and APA has been a sponsor of both men and women pro tours at various times). Most failures were due to lack of organization at the pro level. I think APA realized the chasm that exists between league and pro made it impossible for them to benefit from such partnerships. They do sponsor some individual players now, but not tours or purses.
So pros started a pool league with no thought of any of the money going to pro pool. Okay.
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is so bizarre that anyone thinks the money generated by average joes playing with their friends on league night should be funneled directly into the pockets of professional pool players. It's not my job to fund their operations.

You can't slam APA as being some kind of bastardized, different game than "real pool" and then complain it doesn't generate a slush fund for the top 0.1% of "real pool" players.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
The only money APA is "taking" is from the beginner level people that aren't playing anywhere else. Why would anyone think that money would end up in "pro pool" if there weren't an APA around?

Complain about bangers and housewives playing pool, and then complain that their money isn't going to fund the pro's? Very confusing.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How does league take money from pro pool?

Pro pool is supported by sponsors.

Without those league players buying products from those sponsors there is no pro pool , just a bunch of hustlers hanging out in pool halls.
It doesn’t lol there are leagues in sport so people can compete and have fun. It’s another one of these silly old pool idea’s you know like you can’t be good at it without gambling. I’m not sure how anybody got good at golf, tennis , basketball , dart etc. etc. that don’t gamble but apparently pool is the exception becasuse if you listen to the people on here if you don’t gamble playing pool you’ll never be good at it.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only money APA is "taking" is from the beginner level people that aren't playing anywhere else. Why would anyone think that money would end up in "pro pool" if there weren't an APA around?

Complain about bangers and housewives playing pool, and then complain that their money isn't going to fund the pro's? Very confusing.
how many cue sticks , cases $30 pieces of chalk , pool table…everything surrounding the game get bought because league players go out and buy them. He’s trying to sound like an expert but his entire idea is flawed lol
 

cbi1000

It is what it is...
Silver Member
Went to apa nationals this week. Playing 9 ball, I’m a 9 and I’m playing an 8. He beats me in 1 inning. Missed one ball….
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lets address that word then. If they weren't there, pool would grow how? That's what a blight does, right, restrict growth?
We have 1 guy who is capable of competing on the world stage. And 1 that almost is. What's restricting the development of top players?
-No money in pro pool while league taking lions share for decades.

Where are the advanced players coming from?
Not from league.
Old school, take your lumps and you work your way up. 30 plus hours a week playing all games. Learning from the better players.
-Playing on fisher price tables with league cut pockets under dumbed down rules, shooting one set on league night isn't gonna get anyone there.

Effect of league on pool rooms isn't all positive.
- I've seen all over upstate NY how league operaters do business. Cutting rooms out. Selling rooms out. Holding them hostage for peanuts.
League operators make much more than they payout. How many league players eventually quit once they realize there's no return on investment?

League just isn't pool as it should be. You can be the majority. You can say you are keeping pool alive, but it's a bastardization of what it is at it's bes
There's the fallacy in your thinking. "Lion's share". What makes you think pro pool deserves ANY share of that money?


Neither is old school, apparently. It's still available, yet nobody's taking that route.


It's a rung in the ladder, just like little league and Pop Warner. It's near the bottom, just like them. Each rung in the ladder gets smaller as you go up. Advancing up the ladder requires increasing skill and a lot of sacrifice. As the skill increases, the rule sets you play by change appropriately. Think tee ball to MLB. The ball is set on a tee for you because the skill to throw a pitch or to hit a moving ball hasn't yet been developed. As players advance, the tees are removed and it becomes coach-pitch and eventually player-pitch. The playing field is smaller. Throughout that stage there are no winners or losers - many don't even keep score. Bastardized rules. The difference is tee ball and little league players are not expected to develop themselves into pros. There's pony league, colt league, high school, college, and minor leagues (A, AA, AAA), all financed in part by the pros, not little leagues. Rungs in the ladder that are fully developed, each getting smaller and harder as players progress. Those rungs don't exist or are severely broken in the sport of pool, but it's not the fault of the leagues, the bottom rungs on the ladder. They do their jobs, bring people in.

In my business 30% retention year-to-year is considered good. That means 30% of our customers every year are people who did not play the year before, meaning we gotta find that many customers just to stay the size we were last year. Why do the 30% leave? Most of it is out of the bottom skills, as people tried it out, decided it wasn't for them, and left. That's expected. It's also expected that people's life conditions change. They move, change jobs, have children, etc. There are also those who "develop out" of the system - that's where your "return on investment" comes in. They see the huge void between leagues and the pros, and decide the investment in time and money isn't worth their returns. Again, not the fault of leagues, if anything it's more the fault of professional pool. All of those successful leagues started out in the red. Players and coaches had "real" jobs, both during the season and in the offseason. I'm talking generations of players and coaches, not one or two. They sacrificed for decades, spent their entire careers to build the popularity of the sport, playing just for love of the game - the pros. Pool will not grow overnight. It will take generations of pros who are willing to stick at it and make those sacrifices.

As for operators in upstate New York who hold locations hostage, cut them out, etc., I don't know upstate New York, so I can't speak to that. I don't have the kind of market where I can move teams and tournaments willy-nilly. Maybe they don't either - I don't know. All I can say is that if it's not for a good reason (mistreatment of players, etc.) I don't think that's good business.
Rung on a different step stool

All about the Benjamin's and you know it. At least be honest.
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Went to apa nationals this week. Playing 9 ball, I’m a 9 and I’m playing an 8. He beats me in 1 inning. Missed one ball….
I feel your pain. I bet you weren’t the only SL9 that player beat. Now the BIG question? Is he really a SL8? Did someone keep his SL down for a nefarious reason? I’m tired of LOs not adjusting skill levels when the situation merits it.
 

cbi1000

It is what it is...
Silver Member
I feel your pain. I bet you weren’t the only SL9 that player beat. Now the BIG question? Is he really a SL8? Did someone keep his SL down for a nefarious reason? I’m tired of LOs not adjusting skill levels when the situation merits it.
He still would have beat me as a 9. But it’s laughable at him being an 8. Always someone trying to beat the system.
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He still would have beat me as a 9. But it’s laughable at him being an 8. Always someone trying to beat the system.
So what was the race to?
In a single , short race on a barbox....everyone is a champion.

2 weeks back last set I played Super Billiards Expo I played Dominick Dunn of Dunnski's Dungeon a race to 7 for $500. I ran out first rack like a champion. Then broke dry. I never had another decent chance of getting out again, though I did pick up 2nd game after he missed late in a rack. He jumped in 2, lucked in another and otherwise played like a God to beat me 7 to 2. I've seen him play online, on 9 foot tables a few times. I'd bet my house I'd beat him. Fargo says he's a 589. Well that set he played and rolled magnificently....and that's gambling.
 
Top