Goofy Rule Question

[DeeDeeCues]

No way I'd call unsportsmanlike conduct. That's just being a dick. I've seen a lot of new players do that. They are usually the ones who are obviously trying to improve and they are aiming every ball by checking the contact point with their cue. They are nervous and just stroke the ball home.

Then they get embarrassed about it and think everybody saw and nobody else has ever been that dumb.

Better solution? Buy the dude a beer, take ball in hand, and tell him about a time you effed up... Unless you are perfect, in which case, make up a little lie.

Or be a dick and wonder why your league shrinks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I was told Irving Crane did it once in 14.1.

As I recall the story, when Crane was about 70 he had some kind of circulation problem that affected his brain. In one tournament he missed position so he moved the cue ball to where he had meant to put it, thinking he was just practicing. Fortunately the doctors figured out the problem and fixed it.

 

[Maniac]

I thought with cue ball fouls only and as it was a brain fart and not deliberate plus no other balls were dislodged. Couldn’t they just replace the ball and he plays his shot as supposed to with the white?

Coin table???

 

[hurricane145]

Coin table???

Who knows??
People never give us much info about what the scenario was when it happened. Don't bogart the information! We just get a rough idea of what was going on and go from there. Everyone will have a different solution. Since we were not there and it didn't happen to any of us we can't be sure just how we would react to it. We're just AZB rail birds here.

take ball in hand

That's fine too, and leave it with that. It does come back to what rules you are playing under though. Can you get a re-rack from it? That is always fine with me even if my win is otherwise easy to obtain from that point with ball in hand.
Unsportsmanlike conduct should be for much more severe actions. Just call everything else on the table a foul.

 

[Sheldon]

Since it's only league play. And from what information is available she very likely did it on accident. If it were me playing her, I would have replaced the object ball and let her try again. I would also explain the relevant rules on this situation (after the game or match) so she can gain some knowledge about it for the future.

 

[MitchAlsup]

I think under CSI rules, this would qualify as unsportsmanlike conduct.

Exactly

The official has to determine an appropriate penalty. If the player is really as weak as you have indicated, I'd give ball in hand to the opponent and warn the fouler that a repetition at any time in the future will be loss of game.

And a second incidence will be loss of match.

 

[hurricane145]

Since it's only league play. And from what information is available she very likely did it on accident. If it were me playing her, I would have replaced the object ball and let her try again. I would also explain the relevant rules on this situation (after the game or match) so she can gain some knowledge about it for the future.

Sounds good to me. How the rules should be written and what we actually do in play can be two different things. Many times I have just not called a foul when I don't think the opponent has any chance of running out anyway. Sometimes it is strategic in forcing them to knock a bad cluster loose in 8 ball for their next shot. That I can't do much with even with ball in hand. A calculated risk based on what you see of how he plays.

I do think it is the responsibility of the offenders teammates to be sure to explain about the rules, buy them a beer, etc. It's kinda is why they are a team.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Many times I have just not called a foul when I don't think the opponent has any chance of running out anyway. ...

And then you run into the possibility that they will do the same shot again when it's important. "How come that's a foul now when it wasn't last game?"

I think it's better for the rules to be followed whenever possible.

In the OP's case, it would be nice if the people present learned what the CSI rule actually is.

 

[tomatoshooter]

It is hard to imagine someone playing on a league team that would intentionally or not pocket an object ball by just shooting it in a pocket.

Yeah, I've cued up on a stripe that was turned so the white part was directly at me, I've shot the wrong ball or group, but shooting the ball directly in the pocket? No need for a penalty, I'd die of embarrassment.

 

[tomatoshooter]

And then you run into the possibility that they will do the same shot again when it's important. "How come that's a foul now when it wasn't last game?"

I think it's better for the rules to be followed whenever possible.

In the OP's case, it would be nice if the people present learned what the CSI rule actually is.

That's a good point. I'll let some fouls slide in a casual game (I thought you got a rail! Yeah, that hit your ball first.) but it's a good idea not to let ignorance fester.

 

[hurricane145]

"How come that's a foul now when it wasn't last game?"

Guess I didn't catch it that time.
Thought I'd cut you some slack.
I wasn't sure about it so talked to team mates between games.
Etc...
Some of you guys would gamble a hundred dollars on a game but would not gamble on letting a foul ride in league?

 

[Sheldon]

I've seen people lose opportunities for good scores gambling because they felt the need to argue about rules. Use your brain not your pride, and learn when to let things slide. It will either cost you money, or you'll look like an ahole to people with true sportsmanship.

 

[dquarasr]

As I recall the story, when Crane was about 70 he had some kind of circulation problem that affected his brain. In one tournament he missed position so he moved the cue ball to where he had meant to put it, thinking he was just practicing. Fortunately the doctors figured out the problem and fixed it.

I did almost exactly that in a league match. I had been playing the 9-ball ghost (why I don’t know; shoulda been 4-ball ghost), BIH after the break.

My league opponent breaks, and force of habit I picked up the CB and set it down for the 1-ball. “Doug, what are you doing?” Me: “What? …. Oh, crap, I didn’t even notice what I just did.” Then I explained why. Embarrassing.

No circulation problem I’m aware of, though.

 

[Sheldon]

My league opponent breaks, and force of habit I picked up the CB and set it down for the 1-ball. “Doug, what are you doing?” Me: “What? …. Oh, crap, I didn’t even notice what I just did.” Then I explained why. Embarrassing.

Autopilot.
I'll go one better (worse?).
Playing 1 pocket, I'm spotting a ball and pick the cue ball up to tap it frozen to another ball near the spot.

 

[maha]

new players are likely to quit and not come back when made a fool of by the rules. in this case it was deemed an accident so treat it as such.
they come for fun so make it fun for them. they arent going to win the match or set anyway.
if its an important tournament then it may be a different story.

do you really think you need to punish a new player so he learns a stern lesson.

 

[MattPoland]

No

new players are likely to quit and not come back when made a fool of by the rules. in this case it was deemed an accident so treat it as such.
they come for fun so make it fun for them. they arent going to win the match or set anyway.
if its an important tournament then it may be a different story.

do you really think you need to punish a new player so he learns a stern lesson.

I 100% respect your perspective on this. In the moment, how would you rule?

 

[boogieman]

League 8-ball.

In league it is important to call the rules fairly. People are there to learn the game and play it correctly, even when starting out. If it were a friendly game (i.e. no money on the line, not a league, not a tournament) I might do something different. If a total beginner I would tell them in a friendly way that we could spot the balls and they shoot again, but next time it's BIH. If anyone over a total beginner, we'd probably have a chuckle and I'd take BIH.

Usually a total beginner is having problems even making a bridge and stroking the stick correctly. It can be an embarrassing thing for an adult to deal with. No use making it worse, we've all been there, just some of us got that phase out of the way when much younger. Add to it that many are just totally frazzled mentally after the last couple crazy years and you gotta show some compassion. No use causing them anxiety in a friendly game that they are just learning.

Once you see that they have found some beauty in the game you can more seriously discuss rules and strategy. Gotta crawl before you can walk.

I've done it myself. I've seen friends do it. The one that got me is the 9B. I lined up a shot and the CB and 9B near each other. The 9B was positioned in such a way that it was pretty much white only while lined up with the shot. Now normally I'll take a quick glance at the CB, but I was in dead ass stroke that night and didn't. Saw the shot, lined up, shot the OB perfectly in the center pocket. I hear a giggle... look down and I've shot the 9B instead of the CB.

When lining up with your peripheral, you can't really see color well (try it, have someone hold a red or blue pen in your peripheral and you'll see it but not the color). It happens.

Also on occasion we play for too long without a break. Sometimes we get tunnel vision and focus on the wrong ball. We've all shot a ball out of order. We will usually let each other know if we know that's what's going on, though we don't like to interrupt as it can be sharking.

"Hey boogie, 4 comes before 5." "Yeah I know, I was just lining up my next shot!"

 

[maha]

with someone that wasnt going to win the set and a beginner i would just put the ball back where it was and let him re-shoot.

in a tournament that meant a little something with like others on your team i would consult them but likely do the same. or at worst call loss of shot and shoot then.

besides if you are playing cueball fouls it isnt really a foul especially if you can restore the table to the way it was.

to get and keep action or to keep friends sometimes you have to give up things a little and take away part of the best of it for your long term good.
no harm no foul is a good way to accomplish that.

 

[Maniac]

with someone that wasnt going to win the set and a beginner i would just put the ball back where it was and let him re-shoot.

That would cost you a dollar on a coin table.

 

[maha]

simple, than make it loss of turn.