Grady Mathews vs Billy Incardonna

[PoolBum]

So your saying that inside english when struck rail first will not go in the direction it is spinning? C'mon how many times have u had a ball frozen to the end rail and spun it in using inside english? That shot comes up quite a bit in 9 ball. If you hit ball first, it will still spin that way, but physics tells you that it has to slow down some after striking another object (ball in this case). The rail in this case will give allowing the cue ball to transfer more energy when coming off than it would an object ball.

Southpaw

The ball wasn't frozen to the end cushion--that was Grady's point. If the ball was frozen, then yes, you can spin the cueball over to the side cushion, but if the object ball is not frozen and the cueball hits the end cushion first it will spin into the object ball and then follow the tangent line between the balls, which is not toward the side cushion. Do you really think Grady doesn't know that if the object ball is frozen to the end cushion you can spin the cueball over to the side cushion?

 

[Inzombiac]

Shampoo is better. I go on first and clean the hair. Conditioner is better. I leave the hair silky and smooth. Oh, really, fool? Really.

 

[Southpaw]

The ball wasn't frozen to the end cushion--that was Grady's point. If the ball was frozen, then yes, you can spin the cueball over to the side cushion, but if the object ball is not frozen and the cueball hits the end cushion first it will spin into the object ball and then follow the tangent line between the balls, which is not toward the side cushion. Do you really think Grady doesn't know that if the object ball is frozen to the end cushion you can spin the cueball over to the side cushion?

I think the ball was frozen....I doubt Incardona is oblivious to the game either.

Southpaw

 

[Russ Chewning]

I think the ball was frozen....I doubt Incardona is oblivious to the game either.

Southpaw

Yeah, but the simple fact is, Billy is gonna be wrong 2 outta 3 times when arguing something on the pool table with Grady.. Especially when discussing Efren's playing. Grady just seems to be really keyed in to Efren's style of play, and in fact in his heyday, he probably played much more like Efren technically than Billy could ever hope to.

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

(Billy and Grady are doing a player review of Grady's 11-0 whitewashing of Buddy Hall)

Grady:I use a little different two rail system that most pros , and if we could show it on the monitor, I would show how I would kick two rails at this 2 ball...

Grady:Billy, how would you shoot this?

Billy:I'll tell you in just a second..

(Grady on screen shoots and kicks the 2 ball off two rails..Shot still in progress..)

Billy:I may have decided to kick it that way.....And...Considering the position it ended up in (Buddy hooked on the two ball) I definitely would have shot it that way..

Grady: (Chuckling) Boy, you are SURE a good armchair quarterback, Billy.



Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

(Same Match)

Billy:You missed one bank, but other than that, you've played perfect nine ball, Grady..

Grady:I've got a new theory. The sparse pate and direct juxtaposition of the planets has caused me to feel like a million dollars.

(Billy laughing)

Billy:Well, I'm sure our viewers will try to relate to that, and the next time they come to the table, maybe they can feel the same way.

Grady:And if you believe that, I got some land I wanna sell you, too.(Chuckling)

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

(Same match)

Grady:As elated as I was after this match, imagine the despondency I would have felt had I lost from being ahead 10-0. And how hard pressed I would be to explain my loss to the likes of you.

Billy:You wouldn't have been hard pressed to explain it, I wouldn't have been surprised.




Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

(Same match)

Grady:Now here, being down 9-0, I think Buddy should have exercised better judgement, and played me safe, try to get ball in hand. He has an excellent safety here.

Billy:In all your years as a professional Grady, how many times have you exercised good judgement being down 9-0 in a match? (Chuckles)

Grady:I've done it two or three times.. Two or three times, I really have! If all my bills are paid, and I've got a 19 year old blonde on my arm, I've exercised the greatest of judgement.

Billy: (Laughing) Well, that's understandable.

Grady:A new Cadillac, you as my backer, I mean what more could a person ask? My God.

You know, I am starting to realize more and more just how many funny lines these guys put on the wire during each match.

Russ

 

[Gerry]

I can't think of anyone else, but these are my favorites. They need to get rid of Allen Hopkins. Sure he has tons of knowledge, but he doesn't apply it to his commentating. It's like he's commentating for beginners that can barely hold a cue.

You nailed it cue, Allen doesn't always comment to the "player". He tones down the tech jargon to speak to the masses IMO. Players can watch and know whats going on, but to keep more of the occasional player involved you have to keep it simple, upbeat, and fun I think.

Gerry

 

[PoolBum]

I think the ball was frozen....I doubt Incardona is oblivious to the game either.

Southpaw

The match was from the December, 1992 Sands tourney. Archer was shooting at the 5-ball. The 5-ball was not frozen to the cushion, otherwise there would have been no discussion of the 'rail-first' versus 'ball-first' option (if the 5-ball is frozen to the cushion and is hit with inside English the cueball will never travel up table off the tangent line between the balls--it will always travel to the side cushion--so there would be no point in talking about the different paths the cueball would take hitting rail-first versus ball-first).

The Accu-Stats tapes have numerous examples of Grady correcting Billy on various shots. One of them was definitely wrong on this shot, and just given their history (not even considering this specific case), it is much more likely that Billy will be wrong in a given case than Grady.

Grady's point was that if you hit cushion-first on that shot in front of the 5-ball, then when the cueball comes off the cushion and into the 5-ball it will travel up table off the tangent line between the balls, whereas if you hit the 5-ball first the cueball will then go into the cushion after contacting the 5, the inside English will take, and the cueball will travel over to the side cushion, which is what Archer actually did on that shot. If you watch the shot closely I think you can tell that the cueball hits 5-ball first.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Yeah, but the simple fact is, Billy is gonna be wrong 2 outta 3 times when arguing something on the pool table with Grady.. Especially when discussing Efren's playing. Grady just seems to be really keyed in to Efren's style of play, and in fact in his heyday, he probably played much more like Efren technically than Billy could ever hope to.

Russ

Actually you've got it backwards. Billy is much more keyed to Efren's game than Grady is. There was a time when Billy was the best 9ball player in the world, and around that time I believe Grady was the best one pocket player in the world. But Incardona hung around Efren and trained with him alot more than Grady did.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Actually you've got it backwards. Billy is much more keyed to Efren's game than Grady is. There was a time when Billy was the best 9ball player in the world, and around that time I believe Grady was the best one pocket player in the world. But Incardona hung around Efren and trained with him alot more than Grady did.

Well, all I can say is I have rarely seen Grady with no clue what Efren is about to do. He is so good at detailing how Efren is going to play position on various diffcult outs it is scary. Also, hands down, he knows MUCH better how Efren is going to handle kicks than Billy does. Billy will swear up and down (Did you read the first post I made in this thread????) that Efren can't do this..can't do that.... And Grady has called the shot far more often than Billy. Billy often says "I don't see what he can do here.. I think he's in a real bad spot here.." and Grady responds "Efren has a real good shot here..." and procedes to detail the shot almost exactly... All before Efren shoots it.

If you are willing to offer up specific examples supporting your claim from Accu-Stats commentary when both of them are in the booth, then I am all ears. I have almost every Efren Reyes match except for the 14.1 stuff, and Grady gives Billy the 8 when it comes to accurately predicting Efren's patterns, and gives him the wild 5 out when it comes to predicting Efren's kicking results.

In the shellacking Efren gave Jose in one of the matches I posted on this thread about, Grady accurately predicts Efren is trying to make a ball he is kicking at almost a full table length away, and in the middle of the top rail. Grady mentions that Efren is going to use low inside to shorten up the ball, and that Efren is trying to make the ball. Efren makes the ball, and runs out. Grady says he plays that shot the same way. Bilyl says "When playing Golf, you play for a hole in one, too, but you don't figure to make it."

IMHO, Billy doesn't come close to the knowledge that Grady has on Efren's game. Doesn't matter how much Billy has played with Efren. Obviously he didn't learn as much as Grady did. Again, JMHO.

Russ

 

[sixpack]

Well, all I can say is I have rarely seen Grady with no clue what Efren is about to do. He is so good at detailing how Efren is going to play position on various diffcult outs it is scary. Also, hands down, he knows MUCH better how Efren is going to handle kicks than Billy does. Billy will swear up and down (Did you read the first post I made in this thread????) that Efren can't do this..can't do that.... And Grady has called the shot far more often than Billy. Billy often says "I don't see what he can do here.. I think he's in a real bad spot here.." and Grady responds "Efren has a real good shot here..." and procedes to detail the shot almost exactly... All before Efren shoots it.

If you are willing to offer up specific examples supporting your claim from Accu-Stats commentary when both of them are in the booth, then I am all ears. I have almost every Efren Reyes match except for the 14.1 stuff, and Grady gives Billy the 8 when it comes to accurately predicting Efren's patterns, and gives him the wild 5 out when it comes to predicting Efren's kicking results.

In the shellacking Efren gave Jose in one of the matches I posted on this thread about, Grady accurately predicts Efren is trying to make a ball he is kicking at almost a full table length away, and in the middle of the top rail. Grady mentions that Efren is going to use low inside to shorten up the ball, and that Efren is trying to make the ball. Efren makes the ball, and runs out. Grady says he plays that shot the same way. Bilyl says "When playing Golf, you play for a hole in one, too, but you don't figure to make it."

IMHO, Billy doesn't come close to the knowledge that Grady has on Efren's game. Doesn't matter how much Billy has played with Efren. Obviously he didn't learn as much as Grady did. Again, JMHO.

Russ

One match I was watching recently -- I don't remember who Efren was playing -- he was in a jam, Billy said he should take an intentional foul and put it on the stack, Grady thought he should play off a ball up table or something and Efren hit the shot about a hundred miles an hour, moved 3 balls away from his opponents pocket, left the CB on the stack and put a ball by his pocket.

There was complete silence for a full minute or so, then finally Grady said something to the effect of "Have you ever seen anything like that?" and Billy said "no."

I had to watch it a couple of times because I was laughing my ass off.

Cheers,
RC

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Well, all I can say is I have rarely seen Grady with no clue what Efren is about to do. He is so good at detailing how Efren is going to play position on various diffcult outs it is scary. Also, hands down, he knows MUCH better how Efren is going to handle kicks than Billy does. Billy will swear up and down (Did you read the first post I made in this thread????) that Efren can't do this..can't do that.... And Grady has called the shot far more often than Billy. Billy often says "I don't see what he can do here.. I think he's in a real bad spot here.." and Grady responds "Efren has a real good shot here..." and procedes to detail the shot almost exactly... All before Efren shoots it.

If you are willing to offer up specific examples supporting your claim from Accu-Stats commentary when both of them are in the booth, then I am all ears. I have almost every Efren Reyes match except for the 14.1 stuff, and Grady gives Billy the 8 when it comes to accurately predicting Efren's patterns, and gives him the wild 5 out when it comes to predicting Efren's kicking results.

In the shellacking Efren gave Jose in one of the matches I posted on this thread about, Grady accurately predicts Efren is trying to make a ball he is kicking at almost a full table length away, and in the middle of the top rail. Grady mentions that Efren is going to use low inside to shorten up the ball, and that Efren is trying to make the ball. Efren makes the ball, and runs out. Grady says he plays that shot the same way. Bilyl says "When playing Golf, you play for a hole in one, too, but you don't figure to make it."

IMHO, Billy doesn't come close to the knowledge that Grady has on Efren's game. Doesn't matter how much Billy has played with Efren. Obviously he didn't learn as much as Grady did. Again, JMHO.

Russ

Thats weird, because the accustats matches I have seen with Billy commentating on Efren, I get the opposite impression that you get. But it's pretty well known that Billy knows Efren better than Grady, because Billy was around Chicago when Efren was learning one pocket from Freddy the Beard. Perhaps Freddy can chime in on this. I can't name one speficic accustats match, but the general impression I got from watching numerous ones was that Billy seemed to know Efren's game better. Not saying Grady was far behind, but Billy seemed more right to me. Grady was more right on players like Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Mike Sigel, etc.

 

[sixpack]

Put balls on your side

Before E. was as good as he is now, he struggled to see all the options. I saw one match where he banked a ball to his side and held the CB and Grady made the observation:

I think when Efren was learning to play 1p, somebody told him to just move balls to his side. So he does. He does that when he's not sure what else to do.


I thought it was a pretty astute observation.

Cheers,
RC

 

[freddy the beard]

Splitting hairs

Thats weird, because the accustats matches I have seen with Billy commentating on Efren, I get the opposite impression that you get. But it's pretty well known that Billy knows Efren better than Grady, because Billy was around Chicago when Efren was learning one pocket from Freddy the Beard. Perhaps Freddy can chime in on this. I can't name one speficic accustats match, but the general impression I got from watching numerous ones was that Billy seemed to know Efren's game better. Not saying Grady was far behind, but Billy seemed more right to me. Grady was more right on players like Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Mike Sigel, etc.

You guys are trying to split hairs. I've been in the accu-stats booth with both guys and I sure couldnt say for sure who understands Efren's game better. I played with Effie every day for a year and about 1/2 the time I dont know what the hell he's doing. My experience with him only left me with a handle on his few weaknesses -- not many -- but he does have a few. However, I would at least lean towards Grady's knowledge in the kicking dept. In their own playing, Grady and Billy have 2 different styles of 1pkt and that relects and becomes apparent in their commentary. Billy is much more conservative, relying more on his (used to be) superior shot-making ability. Grady knows more shots and would use them confidently. Billy's long suit is always trying to stay "a move up" on his opponent, like in checkers or chess, and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. It's a good stategy for big money pool, and that's why he was usually successful for the cash. Grady was more likely to try to take it to the next level and create his own opportunities, a style fraught with more pressure and danger. He was much more apt to go for a shot before Billy would. When Grady had his executional skills Billy had no chance, and he knew it and would never play even. Only after Gradys "shot" left him did Billy seek Grady out. Incidentally, the "friendly rivalry" that they project in the booth is actually very real. Either guy would sell a soul to beat the other.

the Beard
Bank on, brother!

 

[Ken_4fun]

Freddy ..... I think youre right

You guys are trying to split hairs. I've been in the accu-stats booth with both guys and I sure couldnt say for sure who understands Efren's game better. I played with Effie every day for a year and about 1/2 the time I dont know what the hell he's doing. My experience with him only left me with a handle on his few weaknesses -- not many -- but he does have a few. However, I would at least lean towards Grady's knowledge in the kicking dept. In their own playing, Grady and Billy have 2 different styles of 1pkt and that relects and becomes apparent in their commentary. Billy is much more conservative, relying more on his (used to be) superior shot-making ability. Grady knows more shots and would use them confidently. Billy's long suit is always trying to stay "a move up" on his opponent, like in checkers or chess, and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. It's a good stategy for big money pool, and that's why he was usually successful for the cash. Grady was more likely to try to take it to the next level and create his own opportunities, a style fraught with more pressure and danger. He was much more apt to go for a shot before Billy would. When Grady had his executional skills Billy had no chance, and he knew it and would never play even. Only after Gradys "shot" left him did Billy seek Grady out. Incidentally, the "friendly rivalry" that they project in the booth is actually very real. Either guy would sell a soul to beat the other.

the Beard
Bank on, brother!

I get the feeling its is ALOT more than "friendly rivalry".

Ken

 

[wahcheck]

thank you Mr. Beard

You guys are trying to split hairs. I've been in the accu-stats booth with both guys and I sure couldnt say for sure who understands Efren's game better. I played with Effie every day for a year and about 1/2 the time I dont know what the hell he's doing. My experience with him only left me with a handle on his few weaknesses -- not many -- but he does have a few. However, I would at least lean towards Grady's knowledge in the kicking dept. In their own playing, Grady and Billy have 2 different styles of 1pkt and that relects and becomes apparent in their commentary. Billy is much more conservative, relying more on his (used to be) superior shot-making ability. Grady knows more shots and would use them confidently. Billy's long suit is always trying to stay "a move up" on his opponent, like in checkers or chess, and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. It's a good stategy for big money pool, and that's why he was usually successful for the cash. Grady was more likely to try to take it to the next level and create his own opportunities, a style fraught with more pressure and danger. He was much more apt to go for a shot before Billy would. When Grady had his executional skills Billy had no chance, and he knew it and would never play even. Only after Gradys "shot" left him did Billy seek Grady out. Incidentally, the "friendly rivalry" that they project in the booth is actually very real. Either guy would sell a soul to beat the other.

the Beard
Bank on, brother!

Thank you Sir, for that most articulate and literate assessment of GM's and BI's games......it was a pleasure to read and we need more evaluations and stories from you..........

 

[Russ Chewning]

It would be nice to have Grady come onto this thread and give us a few gems of his own..

Russ

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I actually got to watch the infamous Incardona and Matthews one pocket match, I think it was either the '94 or '95 Roanoke One Pocket Tournament. The commentators were Buddy Hall, and now I can't remember the other one (there might have been two more). Anyways, the match was definately Grady's. He came incredibly strong out of the gate, in fact, the first few games, Grady played BETTER than perfect, I mean he just had Billy by the nuts in these IMPOSSIBLE to get out of traps. Billy was visibly taking the heat. He didn't know what to do. When Billy left Grady a shot, Grady ran 8 and out. The turning point in the match was when Grady missed an easy shot. It was a shot that was about 2 feet total length, almost straight in, and Grady had to hit it hard with follow. He missed it pretty bad, and Billy ended up winning that game. Billy kind of took control of the match from there, and later on, when Grady needed 1 ball and Billy needed 2, Grady went for a flyer 2 rail shot and sold out. Even Buddy Hall, who was commentating seemed upset that Grady took that shot (Buddy was rooting for Grady). That cost Grady the game, and the match went hill-hill, and they both became a little doggish at the end, but Billy won.

After the match, Buddy and the other commentators asked Grady why he went for that 2 rail shot which he hit extremely hard, and took a flyer at it. Grady said in good humor that he was just there to have fun, and he complimented on how well Billy played. Grady was a true gentleman. After that, they interviewed Billy, and Billy said some things about Grady that were kind of rude and distasteful. He said that Grady is known to "dog" shots like that sometimes, etc. When Billy said that, I lost alot of respect for him. Grady showed Billy alot of respect, and was not a sore loser. Billy acted like a JERK after winning.

I'm not sure, but this MIGHT have been what started the rivalry between them. Billy sure was arrogant in that commentary.