Grady's Rules for nine ball

[pt109]

Just curious, what 'skill' does Grady's rule eliminate? In my reading of them they do just the opposite.

Multiple choice shots….some of Efren’s celebrated wins are when he makes a bank and caroms in the 9-ball…or even just another ball.
Nobody calls 3-cushion a luck game….but a good player goes routes that give you more than one way of scoring.

 

[sjm]

Grady’s rules also eliminated a lot of skill. Grady and I always got along, but I was t going for his rules.

Yes, that's the problem. Neither snooker nor 3-cushion see any need to litigate some of the luck out of the game. In those games, just as in pool, not every good shot is rewarded and not every bad shot is penalized. It has always been that way.

Of course, the real problem, as Basement Dweller wisely notes, is that players alone devised these rules. It is not for the players to set the rules. It is equally true that the fans shouldn't set the rules. An astute producer knows to survey both the players and the fans and then make a decision that serves the game. The event producer's objective is to deliver a pool product that is entertaining, and whatever rules will make that happen is what matters.

Grady's version of nine ball was not as entertaining as Texas Express 9ball.

 

[dendweller]

The lucky shots are often times the thing most talked about from a match

and that is really unfortunate

 

[tomatoshooter]

one is much more likely to see "ordinary" shots missed leaving the incoming player hooked.

The argument for two-way shots is moot imo because they are more rare than the miss that accidentally wins the game for the player who missed.

How are those not 2 way shots?

 

[VTEC John]

How are those not 2 way shots?

In the first instance, your opponent is unfairly penalized because you missed. In a 2-way shot, your opponent is rightly penalized if you miss, because you've made a smart shot choice that leaves him/her tough--but leaves you in good shape for the next ball if you make it. You win either way. But missing a shot and accidentally hooking your opponent is just luck.

 

[hang-the-9]

The differences are subtle but I think they make quite a bit of difference. Jump shots are one of the handful of things that separates pool from snooker. They can break up the monotony of the broadcast, especially with good commentators. The break was another snooker seperator, but that's changing and soon the SVB's of the world won't have much of an edge in that department from the snooker world crossovers. I don't think that's a great thing for the viewers but I understand and even like Matchroom's break rules.

Removing luck from any sport isn't as great of a thing as the proponents of it think it is. The lucky shots are often times the thing most talked about from a match. Removing luck from the game is "fraught with peril!"

Have you ever watched a pool match and thought "well that was good, but I did not see a single jump shot so I'm not satisfied"?

 

[3kushn]

If a player calls "safe" and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.

I could live with this but what's the reason(s)?

 

[tomatoshooter]

If a player calls "safe" and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.

I could live with this but what's the reason(s)?

One example is in 10 ball, the balls are all on the end rail, 9, 10, cue, 8. You call safe and pocket the 8, leaving the cue ball with no shot on the 9. That's just a situation that's easy to describe, if a little unlikely. That's why I think you should be able to give the table back if a ball is pocketed in the wrong hole. Otherwise, you could just call the 8 in a different pocket.

 

[Bob Jewett]

One example is in 10 ball, the balls are all on the end rail, 9, 10, cue, 8. You call safe and pocket the 8, leaving the cue ball with no shot on the 9. That's just a situation that's easy to describe, if a little unlikely. That's why I think you should be able to give the table back if a ball is pocketed in the wrong hole. Otherwise, you could just call the 8 in a different pocket.

The real question is why disallow a safe call? It is skillful for the player to see it and skillful to play it (usually). The rule is in there to avoid the very rare "cheap" safe that you describe. I think that's a bad rule.

 

[hang-the-9]

If a player calls "safe" and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.

I could live with this but what's the reason(s)?

Same reasons if you pocket a ball in an uncalled pocket (as the only ball), it closes a loophole that can cause easy safety shots by simply calling some random pocket and playing it in another one, or by calling a safe and making a ball, then turning over the table without attempting what may be a much harder safety shot. There is also a reasoning that it gets rid of any lucky safes that may be left to the incoming player if they can turn over the table if they don't like it. Even though there is the rule in 8 ball you can do that, 8 ball provides more than one legal ball to contact so playing safe is often harder.

 

[jsp]

The real question is why disallow a safe call? It is skillful for the player to see it and skillful to play it (usually). The rule is in there to avoid the very rare "cheap" safe that you describe. I think that's a bad rule.

I don’t think the “cheap” safe is a “very rare” event. Any time you get the wrong angle on a shot or get straight in when an angle is required is where the scenario can up. That happens quite often for lesser skilled players. Allowing such safes effectively increases the chances for the lesser skilled player to win, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of having these rules to begin with.

 

[thoffen]

No secret that players want control over everything they possibly can. As a viewer I don't like it because it slows things down to consider taking/passing shots on misses, leads to more calculated and likely conservative play, and likely confuses the less educated audience (let's face it, pool can't afford to alienate any viewers). As a player, I would probably slightly prefer it. I have doubts though that it helps much to limit luck in reality.

 

[thoffen]

Multiple choice shots….some of Efren’s celebrated wins are when he makes a bank and caroms in the 9-ball…or even just another ball.
Nobody calls 3-cushion a luck game….but a good player goes routes that give you more than one way of scoring.

And also shots or speeds which may make things unfavorable for the opponent if you miss. A pure safety is illegal, but there's nothing wrong with picking a 2-way shot even if it isn't your absolute best chance to score.

 

[dquarasr]

The WPA rules still talk about calling safe at 10 ball. It is never to the player's advantage to call safe under the WPA rules.

In WPA rules, if you make a ball not called, the ball stays down, right? If you call the pocket on an intended two-way shot, and successfully safe the CB, and make the OB, you've hooked yourself. Isn't it better to call safe? Make the ball, ball stays down, you've hooked your opponent. Miss the ball, same thing, hooked (assuming you leave the original OB in an unplayable spot.)

 

[Bob Jewett]

In WPA rules, if you make a ball not called, the ball stays down, right? If you call the pocket on an intended two-way shot, and successfully safe the CB, and make the OB, you've hooked yourself. Isn't it better to call safe? Make the ball, ball stays down, you've hooked your opponent. Miss the ball, same thing, hooked (assuming you leave the original OB in an unplayable spot.)

I don't understand your scenario. If you are playing a two-way shot, you will play position on the next ball. You will be playing safe on the ball you are hitting.

Under WPA rules, if you make an uncalled ball your opponent has the choice of who will shoot next. You cannot both call a ball and call a safe.

 

[dquarasr]

I don't understand your scenario. If you are playing a two-way shot, you will play position on the next ball. You will be playing safe on the ball you are hitting.

Under WPA rules, if you make an uncalled ball your opponent has the choice of who will shoot next. You cannot both call a ball and call a safe.

Obviously I was confused. Sometimes (often?) the neurons don’t connect.

 

[Taxi]

I like the Grady rules because nothing is more annoying than a lucky safe, but to address the two way shot objection, maybe allow one called two way shot a game, much as tournaments with shot clocks allow one extension per rack.

And once you've used your one two way shot, just call your shot or call your safe. Otherwise we'd see players calling two way shots with shots that they're obviously trying to pot.

 

[JolietJames]

How are those not 2 way shots?

How is missing a shot by half a diamond only to end up dead hooked to everything on the table a two way shot? A player should be penalized for a miss like that in every instance imo.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

I love call shot/call save rules for rotation.

You just have to decide what your percentages are of making a semi-difficult shot and either going for it or trying to play safe.

The "no two way shots" argument is slightly valid, but I'll give that up in a second to eliminate 99% of the luck that these rules do.

If I'm gambling more that $20, I'm playing WPA 10 ball rules (call shot/call safe).... or 8 ball I'd rather win/loss on skill than get out lucked.

 

[3kushn]

Same reasons if you pocket a ball in an uncalled pocket (as the only ball), it closes a loophole that can cause easy safety shots by simply calling some random pocket and playing it in another one, or by calling a safe and making a ball, then turning over the table without attempting what may be a much harder safety shot. There is also a reasoning that it gets rid of any lucky safes that may be left to the incoming player if they can turn over the table if they don't like it. Even though there is the rule in 8 ball you can do that, 8 ball provides more than one legal ball to contact so playing safe is often harder.

Not picking on you 9ball hanger. I don't play much pocket games but when I did 70's 80's "Call Pocket" was only part of a negotiation, not the norm. I enjoyed the Lack of additional rules beyond you gotta hit the lowest #'d ball 1st, foul the CB = your turn is over, miss the lowest #ball = go sit in your chair, .....

I don't ever remember playing Call 9Ball, but my memory is weakening.

I've said several times here, I think its futile to try to eliminate LUCK from the game. A shooter gets lucky when the shot complied with the rules even though it wasn't the plan, and his opponent is unlucky that happened. On the other hand, an opponent is lucky when by some fluke the shooter is unlucky. A slight kiss for example. The table light came crashing down from the ceiling. A patron walks in front of the shot in perfect time. ............

There's nobody that's played this game more than 1 hour that hasn't benefited or been harmed by luck.

To me, and even if harmed, Luck is part of the FUN OF THE GAME. Extra Fun although Aggravating at times. The aggravation, if you're having fun is another source of fun.

In 2 hours today, I was harmed 6 times from luck. I also inflicted pain 7 times from luck. 4 times I inflicted enhanced pain. = additional billiards after a lucky shot.

I just want to have fun, while at the same time trying to cut my opponents throat, while at the same time he's trying to cut my throat. If he gets lucky... so what!! I will too in time. WHEN THINGS go wrong, so what, we just make a plan to face off again.

Extra rules?? Removes some of the fun and promotes arguing IMO. Not for me.

I'll take my hits no matter the rules.