gripping further back on the cue, Bob Jewett comment

[lfigueroa]

I do not think this is vague at all! I also agree 100%

As has already been said, you should grip your cue so that your arm is perpendicular to the floor when the cue tip is at the cue ball. This will be determined by your wingspan and the length of your bridge. The balance of the cue will have ZERO effect on this.

Quick question to those in this camp- After playing with your cue for many years and developing your specific mechanics including bridge length and grip placement. do you throw all that out the window if someone hands you a different cue? Seriously, let's say you left your cue at home ( or you have a tip pop off, etc) do you now find the balance point and completely change your grip placement for this new cue? What about your bridge length, do you change that too? After drilling in your mechanics and practicing them to become automatic and repeatable, do you let a cue dictate how you will play? Does this seem like a good idea?

I am well aware that mosconi as well as others have stated to grip at or about the balance point. Some great players have also used a side arm stroke ( usually as a result of learning the game at a young age), should you do this?

How would you feel if you go to your doctor and he makes it known that he learned all he needed to know about the medical profession from the available information in 1945? Let's be honest here for a minute. Many things, including pool instruction, have come a long way in the last 40 years or so. That is what Randy was saying ( in far less words than I) in his comment about what the new books might say.

You can ALWAYS find examples of very good or great players who have some quirks or even what some would consider bad mechanics. Does this mean that we should TEACH this as the correct way? USUALLY when advice is asked for, it is in the context of what is the BEST or most efficient way to achieve X.

I have never heard someone ask "If I wanted to practice very hard and overcome certain mechanical errors and compensate for less than ideal fundamentals, How should I do....":grin:


The fact remains that MANY players even great ones learned very informally and made certain characteristics their own and still have achieved a great level. They play great pool IN SPITE of their mechanics, not because of them! They have still put in enough time to hone their game and have a very repeatable and consistant stroke, but that DOES NOT mean it is how someone who is seeking the correct and most efficient way to do things should be encouraged to do them.


Well, I think I have more or less said EXACTLY what Randy said. He was able to do it in far less words than I. It seemed like for some, it was not clear enough, or wanted to have a much longer explanation. I think this is long enough, yes?


poolpro<---------- rarely at a loss for words.:thumbup:




Jw

What happens is that the balance point can easily affect your PSR in subtle ways that you might not even notice... except for the part that you're not making as many balls, or your position play is constantly off. Conversely, the reason you might *really* like a particular cue is because it just, somehow, makes you play better. That could be the balance point at work helping your setup, or maybe even something like the wrap materiel (different subject).

I know there are some guys out there that can pull a house cue off the wall and play great. But most of us aren't like that and so we often stick (haha) to one cue and learn, perhaps subconsciously, how to make that particular cue work with our personal mechanics. If you commit to a particular cue, then chances are you're going to have to fiddle with your mechanics some to get the most mileage out of any particular cue. If given a different cue, are you going to throw all your PSR and mechanics out the window? No, of course not. But chances are you're going to have to adjust to the different cue. And depending how attuned you are to your own mechanics and the level of play you're at, you could be able to easily adjust. But... if you're not tuned in to how and why you play the way you do, you might not ever fully adjust to a new cue.

As to stuff like the forearm being perpendicular to the floor, there are a whole slew of excellent players out there that have their forearm forward of perpendicular. (Everyone is going to have a slightly different optimal setup -- that's why there are almost no two pros that look the same at the table.) Saying *everyone* should do that is silly.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Baxter]

The players that were old players in the sixties and seventies that I copied moved their hands around on the cue stick for different shots. It's a method that certainly has value. I do it sometimes with excellent results but it is one more thing I don't do consistently anymore. Things like this are why I say I need to spend my time rebuilding my old game instead of trying to learn one new thing after another that pops up on the forum.

You pointed out something else I am a big believer in, the break off of the head rail. If we need to for the angle breaking off of the side rail is OK and on one side it works well, side depending on if you are left or right handed. When breaking from the kitchen though, I find it makes much more sense for me to give up a few inches of extra travel on the cue ball and gain the stability of the rail and another even more valuable asset in my opinion. When we break from the headstring in the kitchen the motion of our body is fairly constricted. When we break from the head rail we are much freer to move and increase both speed and accuracy.

Hu

I agree completely. I break off the head rail for all games with a triangle rack. I break off the side rail (right handed, right side for me) playing 9 ball. I used to break off the string, and my break was spotty at best. I'd drop a ball 20% if I was lucky. Switched to the rail bridge, and now I drop balls with my standard break spot on most tables 40%. Tables I know, at least 75%. I attribute all of that to the consistency I found using the rail bridge. I can hit the exact spot on the headball, exact spot on the cueball, with 80% power almost every time. It's funny actually, because last week I tried to break off the string just to see what would happen, and all I managed to do was bash my grip hand on the edge of the table. That hurt like hell, and all it did was reinforce that I should be breaking off the rail.

 

[Deadon]

Qb

ShootingArts;

One of the best threads for information and opinions in a long time. Nice to see some thoughtful responses. To stimulate things I will bring up a couple of points, not real far off topic.

A well executed slip stroke is a thing of beauty. A number of the older players used it often and some of the pros today still use it to a smaller degree. Denny Searcy comes to mind. His effortless (looking), stroke moved the QB around the table like few then or since could do. BTW, Efren will sometimes use a small slip stroke.

As far as "potting" balls, champion snooker players had no chance on a 6x12 playing payball with the likes of Denny, Richie, Cole etc. They could not match the pocketing ability of the American players. Ask Grady, he will tell you what happened when they came to Cochrans to "give it a go". So when you get to technique, maybe the snooker style is best suited to that game, and not necessarily pool. Some aspects are certainly transferable, but are others that beneficial? Like adjusting bridge lengths(per earlier post).

Relative to the grip location, you must also consider stance. Not only do you want the cue to be level at the time of contact with the QB, but you also want your arm to be going through the most powerful part of the movement. The most accurate and powerful part of the arm movement is generally accepted when the forearm(FA) and upper arm(UA) are around a 90% angle.

Hence, cue level, upper arm level, forearm at 90%. As you get lower on the ball, the FA and UA angle gets less because the shoulders are dropped as you get lower. It only natural to adjust your grip hand backward to maintain the strength curve in your stroke. We have all experienced hitting the QB early or late and had that funny feeling. A little higher stance, ala Luther Lassiter, Mosconi, Mike Massey, Buddy Hall and many others, keeps everything at 90s.

Thoughts?

 

[duckie]

Angle of attack is the angle of the cue as it comes into contact with the CB and continues with the follow thru.

A level cue as a angle of attack of 0 degree, where as being jacked over a ball, the angle of attack maybe 45 or more degree.

I've been playing with different angle of attacks to see the affects it has on the angle of the spin on the CB. Say right english or is it spin, anyway, at a angle of attack of 0 degees the CB spin is going to be level with the table.

Now, changing the angle of attack also changes the angle of the spin on the CB. Do the above, but instead this time raise the butt of your cue up some and stroke straight. Since your are hitting and stroking through the cue ball at a angle, that is the angle the spin on the CB will be.

I've been able to use this to great success.

So, keeping your cue always level really limits what you can do with english or is it spin.

 

[Baxter]

Keeping your cue level is one of the fundamentals of a good stroke. A level cue will allow you to apply english with consistency. Using english without a level cue and your deflection will be a lot greater and unpredictable.

 

[TATE]

Siz,

A whole lot better later than never! You are someone else I can count on for excellent posts. You are absolutely right that focusing on one portion of the way we shoot ignoring that everything is interconnected is a major error. A real issue for me is that 20 years and fifty pounds later I can't maintain the low stance I once used. I have worn a beard for forty years now and for very long fine cut shots I used to get down and slide the cue along the right side of my jaw with the beard making an excellent sliding surface. There is a jowl there instead of a jaw now and if I got that low it would take half the guys in the pool room to straighten me back up again!

OK, enough of the teasing, I want to see a picture of you.

Chris