gripping further back on the cue, Bob Jewett comment

[TATE]

As an aspiring professional snooker player, I have always been taught it is a cardinal sin to shorten down on the cue as this reduces follow through. I'm 5 10 and I use a 58.5 inch cue, holding it right at the end. Sometimes players may feel that on a softer shot choking up on the cue is necessary but I've been taught to simply shortern down on my backswing considerably instead. I hold the cue in the same place every time and follow through until I hit my chest no matter the speed. This improves your speed control greatly as all you do on every shot is pull the cue back as far as it need be and then accelerating through to your chest, the follow through is consistant. This helps snooker players focus 100% on the pot as the speed side of the shot becomes almost automatic.
Sorry for the slightly rambling post, I'm not so good with words

So he's saying he uses the same form for all shots, with the backswing length being the only variable (for speed control).

This is pretty much what I thought. Snooker players need to have a highly repeatable stroke - and they've achieved this with their technique.

Pool players vary the backswing length too on certain shots, particularly very soft shots or very firm shots.

Chris

 

[tom mcgonagle]

I have always played with my hand right at the end of my cue. Why I don't know. It just feels right. My track record is pretty good and I'm not about to change it. IT"S TO LATE FOR ME.

 

[lfigueroa]

I didn't want to derail the thread this was posted in but I've been wanting to ask about this, seems like a good time.


Quote from Bob's post in another thread:
Many snooker players -- who earn far more than pool players, on average at the top -- grip their sticks all the way at the end; they have no room to slip. Nearly every top carom player uses a rubber grip; their hands do not slip even with light grips.(end quote)

I shot like this most of the time I played every day, my grip hand very near the buttcap or on it. I have a fair amount of wingspan and this is where the grip hand naturally wanted to be it seemed. With my return to pool and desire to learn "the right way to play" I moved my grip hand forward to a more common grip. The last few times I played I have let my grip hand wander wherever it wanted to. Near the buttcap for most shots, moving ahead for soft shots needing a lot of touch. Been a few years since I changed to the forward grip and I may be getting the "any change effect" but I seem to be pocketing a little better. I'm left wondering, what are the advantages and disadvantages of gripping near the back of the stick?

Hu

Great question, Hu.

I guess I grew up when there were only a few instructional books out there: Mosconi, Cottingham, Hoppe, Lassiter, and Mizerak.

I remember reading in Mosconi's two books that you had to find the balance point of the cue and then "slide your right hand back three to five inches from the balance point." And so, to this day, I play with a grip that ends up pretty much in the center of the leather grip on my cue. I've tried longer grips, but now, alas, I can't seem to make them work.

But honestly, I've always envied the guys with the longer grips. It seems like they get so much power, with relatively little effort.

Lou Figueroa

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

This idea that gripping it further back allows for more power is interesting, but I'm not sure I go along with it because it is contrary to some things I've heard. For instance, one of the techniques I've heard about increasing power on the break is to actually move your grip hand forward on the cue. It has something to do with the fulcrum and where your muscles make more power.

Here's one example of this idea put forward by Colin Colenso:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

Interesting topic for sure.

 

[randyg]

Almost every old book on pool that I read, stated find the balance point and than move your grip hand behind that point so many inches. A couple of those books had the names of future hall of famer's as authors. Just goes to show, to each their own. Like when whats his name tried to say some of Ray Martin's 99 critical shots were wrong. Again, just goes to show. :wink:

I wonder what the modern day books reccomend.....
SPF=randyg

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm just gathering thoughts and opinions

I wonder what the modern day books reccomend.....
SPF=randyg

Randy,

I'm just gathering thoughts and opinions in this thread. I'm not trying to judge any of them right now. This is also why I didn't put my thoughts out as a starting point. In R&D this is the original brainstorming session. All thoughts are welcome from the most structured to the most off the wall and everything in between. I'm glad to hear from snooker players, top pool players, all levels of players and of course instructors. Heck, even very very lucky bangers like myself.

Hu

 

[Maniac]

Okay, this is my take on why I don't hold the cue all the way at the buttcap. I use a 61" cue. I am 6'1" with a large wingspan. When I finish my stroke I like my grip hand to find a "home" in my ribcage. If I held the cue far back beyond where my forearm is pointing straight down at the ground at cue ball contact, my follow through would be way longer than it should be when my grip hand hits "home". This would be the same problem for persons of slighter stature/wingspan that use a standard length cue.

Maniac

 

[GaryB]

peteypooldude...I agree with you, in principle, but it also depends on the length of your bridge. Many of the Filipino players shoot with a very long bridge, and hold their cues near the end. Almost none of them are even close to 6' or taller.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The Filipino players also seem to have extremely long fingers that they use to make very tight bridges with no wobble whatsoever.

The method that you and Randy teach makes the most sense to me. That is--the tip as close to the cue ball as possible and then the hand moved back on the cue until the forearm is perpendicular. Simple and effective.

 

[ShootingArts]

trying the "new skin" replies part one.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I've swapped to the new skin(for me) to multi-quote and try to put my thoughts on all the posts in one place. First off, every post is appreciated. Some were replies to each other and may not be quoted here but were read and appreciated.

My replies are in blue.

It is held that you should hit the CB as level to the slate as possible. If you hit it with your fore arm past perpendicular to the floor, the tip of the cue will be dipping down toward the slate - scrubbing/wiping the CB. If you hold the cue at the back, you will be hitting the CB with your fore arm more perpendicular to the floor and thus, the cue will be more level to the slate.

There are other things involved of course but I think your basic answer is to hold the cue where you need to for stroke timing, hitting the ball at the bottom of the stroke. Definitely can't say that is a bad thing!

Depending on your setup, it can remove some elbow drop in your shot. If your hand is too far forward on the cue, you will have to drop your elbow to follow through.

This all depends on your current setup, but YES, it can help certain players to move their hand a little further back.

An interesting point. My main concern with having the grip very far back is that it can harm stroke mechanics. Good point that moving the hand back can help mechanics too depending on other factors.

I like to think as long as the back arm is at 90 at cb impact,It depends on wingspan I would think,a tall and long arm player would naturally grip it further back

Body style does seem to be a big factor in grip location. Good point!

There are a few reasons I grip at the very end.
1)
It allows my stance and left arm to fall into a comfortable position ie slight bend in the left arm to put my bridge hand directly in front and very forward weight balance on my left foot. if you shorten the cue you would have to alter either the bend in your bridge arm or your body position.

2)longer bridge gives me better accuracy striking the cue ball and better follow through

3) it gives more forward balance of the cue.

Your post is of great interest. Obviously the rear grip has been incorporated into your entire stance and stroke. I think this is a key, not necessarily any single right way to do things but all of the components of an individual's set-up have to work together.

Grip towards the back or towards the front is not quite the way I'd look at it. Grip where your arm is pointed straight down at contact is the key factor as this is where the cue is most level. As was already pointed out this will vary depending on the players wing span.

This is the most universal opinion I believe. Hitting when the cue is most level. There are different ways to achieve this goal. I notice several very good players break the wrist back as one example so when they are at the bottom of their stroke the forearm is actually forward of perpendicular. The effect is identical however.

Grip/hand placement is more about the balance point of a cue - IMO.

I have had the weight adjusted (to move the balance point) on my personal playing cue to and fro until my hand naturally falls where I want it to - ultimately having the proper (my ideal) average distance from bridge hand to cue ball.

An interesting point. My cues are all fairly conventionally balanced. My 60 inch cue is balanced 21" from the bumper which is the same as 19" on a 58" cue. Moving my hand back I find I like the house cues with a balance point 17" from the rear of the 58" cues better. I haven't tried balance points further back since I have been playing with grip position.

 

[ShootingArts]

part two of my replies

Pool and snooker are different games with an emphasis on different skills. Pool has a lot of room for error compared to snooker.

It can be a humbling experience for a pool player who thinks they are accurate to play snooker on a tight table! For "splitting the pocket" accuracy, snooker players have developed rigid, repeatable routines, where they try to use the same stance, head position, stroke, bridge, everything they can from shot-to-shot. If you watch Davis or O'Sullivan play you recognize how disiplined they are setting up for each shot.

I believe that snooker players have the highest level of repeatable stroke attainable in the cue sports. I imagine that pool players look sloppy to them, but I can also imagine they marvel at how we can subtly use the relatively generous pockets to change angles and achieve what sometimes looks like impossible position play.

Why at the back of the cue?

- One, it is a consistent placement. It's easy to find the back of the cue. Snooker players tend to use a pendulum stroke - the weight of the cue, especially a snooker cue, is back on the butt, so I believe this helps them feel the weight of the cue without restricting their stroke.

- Two, let's not forget that snooker cues are generally shorter and lighter than pool cues, and carom cues are shorter yet.

- Snooker players don't usually drop their elbows like pool players, so their grip placement is probably a little more critical to them.

I used to think a light, loose grip was a good thing in pool, but I had a lot of trouble with inconsistency in the power game. Since I've firmed up my grip, my power shots have gained new found life and accuracy. It took a while to adjust to a firmer grip, but I'm now pleased with the result.

Chris

You covered a lot of ground here, all good info. The slightly off topic comments about grip are most interesting to me. I suspect the affection for the superlight grip is tied in to the pendulum stroke. It is the easiest fix for the normal issue of movement needed between the cue stick and elbow to accommodate the fairly short radius of all movement coming from the elbow. When I'm having trouble steering a very light grip can help however a slightly firmer grip and letting the shot dictate the grip seems to work best. A fairly light grip allows a pistol to be shot very fast. The grip will tighten enough to control the pistol while letting it float. I'm thinking a moderate grip may be better than a cradle for pool also and we will automatically make small adjustments for each shot.

That brings up a question. For the same reason that a longer bridge can produce more error from side to side movement, would not a longer backhand result in potentially the same thing?

I think it is a little bit of a double edged sword. The shorter distances mask the errors in stroke but doesn't fix them. With the longer distances the errors are more easily seen and corrected although they cost you in the short term. Of course if you always use a compact style the errors genuinely matter less.

For me the longer bridge gives a more visual reference to how straight I push the cue through when feathering the ball. the short bridge gets me more off line and long potting is a pretty strong element of my game.
The weight on the bridge hand increases as you move the grip back giving a more forward balance.

All good points. The rearward grip often results in the bridge moving further back too. The amount of weight on the bridge and grip hand do change too as you note. Seeing more of the stick beyond the bridge is a help aiming particularly with a closed bridge.

peteypooldude...I agree with you, in principle, but it also depends on the length of your bridge. Many of the Filipino players shoot with a very long bridge, and hold their cues near the end. Almost none of them are even close to 6' or taller.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think the long bridge is probably a mistake for average shooters. No question that top shooters make it work very well. As noted above, a long bridge almost insures the grip hand moved back an equal distance. Good point!

As an aspiring professional snooker player, I have always been taught it is a cardinal sin to shorten down on the cue as this reduces follow through. I'm 5 10 and I use a 58.5 inch cue, holding it right at the end. Sometimes players may feel that on a softer shot choking up on the cue is necessary but I've been taught to simply shortern down on my backswing considerably instead. I hold the cue in the same place every time and follow through until I hit my chest no matter the speed. This improves your speed control greatly as all you do on every shot is pull the cue back as far as it need be and then accelerating through to your chest, the follow through is consistant. This helps snooker players focus 100% on the pot as the speed side of the shot becomes almost automatic.
Sorry for the slightly rambling post, I'm not so good with words

Believe me, you wouldn't be saying that if you knew how long it took me to go through my post to make it understanderble
In answer to your question, no. Same grip position, same bridge hand distance, same follow through, same acceleration through the ball no matter the shot. The only thing that changes is the backswing length.

Excellent posts. Like some of the earlier posts the things that interest me most are slightly off topic but are related to why you always grip to the rear. I am a big fan of accelerating the cue forward from a slow start so I think I understand what you are saying and agree. Thanks for a slightly different perspective from most pool players.

Almost every old book on pool that I read, stated find the balance point and than move your grip hand behind that point so many inches. A couple of those books had the names of future hall of famer's as authors. Just goes to show, to each their own. Like when whats his name tried to say some of Ray Martin's 99 critical shots were wrong. Again, just goes to show. :wink:

I have read that too but the players writing the books I read were all of fairly modest height. When I try to use the same points on the cue as they do the angles of my body are completely different. It is the same thing when they describe stance. Their beginning relationship to the pool table is different than mine. The old masters are certainly right far more than they are wrong but I think they don't explain themselves well sometimes or don't consider different body types. Anyone that has played at that level has a great deal of value to offer but sometimes we have to make some small adaptations I believe.

So he's saying he uses the same form for all shots, with the backswing length being the only variable (for speed control).

This is pretty much what I thought. Snooker players need to have a highly repeatable stroke - and they've achieved this with their technique.

Pool players vary the backswing length too on certain shots, particularly very soft shots or very firm shots.

Chris

Good summary and good comment about pool players and stroke length.

I have always played with my hand right at the end of my cue. Why I don't know. It just feels right. My track record is pretty good and I'm not about to change it. IT"S TO LATE FOR ME.

I'm finding that I work best with "if it feels good do it" too. I keep trying new stuff when it seems I should be spending my time polishing on old stuff.

Great question, Hu.

I guess I grew up when there were only a few instructional books out there: Mosconi, Cottingham, Hoppe, Lassiter, and Mizerak.

I remember reading in Mosconi's two books that you had to find the balance point of the cue and then "slide your right hand back three to five inches from the balance point." And so, to this day, I play with a grip that ends up pretty much in the center of the leather grip on my cue. I've tried longer grips, but now, alas, I can't seem to make them work.

But honestly, I've always envied the guys with the longer grips. It seems like they get so much power, with relatively little effort.

Lou Figueroa

We don't seem to need much power anymore or at least rarely. One of my biggest flaws is overpowering today's fast rails and fast cloth. I have to agree with your comment, the long strokes just plain look prettier and more effortless though. That is admittedly one reason I want to master a slip stroke too. Properly executed it is beautiful.

This idea that gripping it further back allows for more power is interesting, but I'm not sure I go along with it because it is contrary to some things I've heard. For instance, one of the techniques I've heard about increasing power on the break is to actually move your grip hand forward on the cue. It has something to do with the fulcrum and where your muscles make more power.

Here's one example of this idea put forward by Colin Colenso:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

Interesting topic for sure.

Multiple elements involved so when we say one thing like moving the grip hand further back generates more power or less it is still dependent on other factors. With the grip hand further back and a bridge so short that the arm is still extended then the speed and power may indeed be less. If the bridge, stroke, and grip work together the hand further back can generate increased speed and control. Of course if they don't work together the grip further back can cobble up everything too.

Okay, this is my take on why I don't hold the cue all the way at the buttcap. I use a 61" cue. I am 6'1" with a large wingspan. When I finish my stroke I like my grip hand to find a "home" in my ribcage. If I held the cue far back beyond where my forearm is pointing straight down at the ground at cue ball contact, my follow through would be way longer than it should be when my grip hand hits "home". This would be the same problem for persons of slighter stature/wingspan that use a standard length cue.

Maniac

This seems to be the reason for everyone's placement of their grip hand, it is part of a total package. I'm thinking that it might indeed be the best answer too, everything including grip placement has to work together.



My toy shop is nearing completion once again and I think I'll make myself some toys to try. One is another 60" cue with the wrap running all the way to the butt cap. Cutting my own wrap groove and wrapping it myself I can run a linen wrap as far as I want too. I think I'll do something I don't care for and put a weight bolt in this cue too so I can move the balance point as far back as I want to. I have also wanted to build myself a very long cue to try, 64"-66". Not with a long shaft, probably a three piece cue. I'm also going away from the layered tips and very hard ferrules, returning to milk duds and either a very short ferrule or a fairly soft ferrule.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel as much as go back to what I used most effectively, a 60" house cue with a milk dud on it. I do want a hinge in it but I'll keep it as close to a one piece cue as possible.

Thanks again for all posts, quoted or not, and please feel free to keep the thread going. It has been a huge help to my thinking about the grip already plus I got a few unexpected bits of information as a bonus.

Hu

 

[LAMas]

There might be another reason to hold the cue far back and that would be that any sideways motion in you stroke would have less effect than if you held the cue far forward. Cecil Tugwell held his cue far back and he was very accurate.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

CORY: I know to each their own....BUT....This is a false statement:

"Grip/hand placementis more about the balance point of the cue."

SPF=randyg

That's pretty vague...

If you wish to contradict, explain yourself.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

That's pretty vague...

If you wish to contradict, explain yourself.

I was thinking the same thing....first of all you stated it as your opinion, then he says that your opinion is a "false statement", and he doesn't bother to explain why.

Randy it would be nice if you would explain your reasoning, that was pretty rude.

 

[ShootingArts]

to be fair to Randy

I was thinking the same thing....first of all you stated it as your opinion, then he says that your opinion is a "false statement", and he doesn't bother to explain why.

Randy it would be nice if you would explain your reasoning, that was pretty rude.

To be fair to Randy, I did ask that the thread not be about contesting each other's opinions after he made the first post. The thread has ran it's course as far as the original objective now and if Randy sees this and chooses to respond with the basis of his different viewpoint I'm more than fine with that. I do much appreciate that Randy remained quiet at the time to let me gather as much input as possible from everyone that wanted to comment.

Thanks again to everyone and a special thanks to RandyG for understanding and cooperating with what I was trying to do. The thread helped me exactly as I hoped it would plus gave me some unexpected bonuses.

Hu

 

[CarlB]

My take on grip

**Opinion**

The grip is just like a golf swing, any stance, baseball swing, or *Insert sport action here*

It is one part of a whole as far as your shot goes. It is something that your body will adjust to, you will get comfortable making shots. then someone comes up and says, "no, no, hold the cue this way." then your uncomfortable and trying to learn how to make shots over again.

There is a slight science and logic however to your arm being bent at a 90 degree angle. It allows for maximum "hinge" without moving your upper arm so your tip moves straight back and forth. It allows you to keep the same stroke, take back, and follow through.

My take on it is it wouldn't matter where you are gripping the actual cue, if you prefer a longer bridge and you grip further back, and vice versa.

But the fact still remains that 90 degrees allows for minimal vertical tip movement during a stroke.

You wouldn't want a short bridge with the cue gripped way back, or a long bridge holdind up higher, that would just look funny.

**Opinion**

Carl Bekowitz

 

[lfigueroa]

That's pretty vague...

If you wish to contradict, explain yourself.

I would also like to hear the explanation, because I think there is something to the balance issue for some players.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

**Opinion**

The grip is just like a golf swing, any stance, baseball swing, or *Insert sport action here*

It is one part of a whole as far as your shot goes. It is something that your body will adjust to, you will get comfortable making shots. then someone comes up and says, "no, no, hold the cue this way." then your uncomfortable and trying to learn how to make shots over again.

There is a slight science and logic however to your arm being bent at a 90 degree angle. It allows for maximum "hinge" without moving your upper arm so your tip moves straight back and forth. It allows you to keep the same stroke, take back, and follow through.

My take on it is it wouldn't matter where you are gripping the actual cue, if you prefer a longer bridge and you grip further back, and vice versa.

But the fact still remains that 90 degrees allows for minimal vertical tip movement during a stroke.

You wouldn't want a short bridge with the cue gripped way back, or a long bridge holdind up higher, that would just look funny.

**Opinion**

Carl Bekowitz

I think you can get pretty good any which way. Guys shoot great opposite-handed, one-handed, behind-the-back, shooting with a bridge, etc. When younger (and more limber) I could actually shoot pretty good shooting with the cue between my legs

But for your average Joe, I think the truth is closer to: there is an optimal setup for you. Find it and you will not only play better, more consistently -- you will cut eons off your learning curve.

Some guys set up different each time they come to the table, or are often indiscriminately changing something like their grip. Sometimes, these are the same guys that have been playing every day for years, yet never seem to get any better.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CarlB]

I think you can get pretty good any which way. Guys shoot great opposite-handed, one-handed, behind-the-back, shooting with a bridge, etc. When younger (and more limber) I could actually shoot pretty good shooting with the cue between my legs

But for your average Joe, I think the truth is closer to: there is an optimal setup for you. Find it and you will not only play better, more consistently -- you will cut eons off your learning curve.

Some guys set up different each time they come to the table, or are often indiscriminately changing something like their grip. Sometimes, these are the same guys that have been playing every day for years, yet never seem to get any better.

Lou Figueroa

I can agree with this. (how often do you hear that on the forums. lol)

 

[mullyman]

You know, Hu, I too hold my cue at the far end, usually on the butt cap. But, I'm 6'1 and with a wide stance it's unavoidable unless I want to feel pinched into my stance. I thought to rectify this problem that I would go with a 59in cue. Guess what, I still hold my cue pretty much at the far end. I just can't shoot with my hand on the grip area. I feel like I'm playing in a sardine can if I push everything forward like that.
MULLY

 

[CrownCityCorey]

You know, Hu, I too hold my cue at the far end, usually on the butt cap. But, I'm 6'1 and with a wide stance it's unavoidable unless I want to feel pinched into my stance. I thought to rectify this problem that I would go with a 59in cue. Guess what, I still hold my cue pretty much at the far end. I just can't shoot with my hand on the grip area. I feel like I'm playing in a sardine can if I push everything forward like that.
MULLY

I am 6'4" and had the same experience; as I went from 58"-60" cues, I was still holding it all the way in the back - getting farther and farther away from my work.

I am settled in now with 59" cue (30" shaft), and have simple adjusted the weight/balance to achieve my desired average distance from my work (e.g. cueball).

For me heavy/dense forearm woods (e.g. Ebony or Cocobolo) are a must to get it all to work out - with a Maple forearm, the cue ends up @ 21+ oz (affecting my desired swing speed) and my hand all the way at the back of the cue. I will run out of cue before it feels right.