Gripping the cue

[Scott Lee]

Pool and golf are alike in three ways. The ball doesn't move until we strike it (so it's not reactionary, like other sports); there's no opponent (playing against yourself); and the swing is a circle, where we want to strike the ball at the bottom of the circle. More professional instructors in both sports recommend looser grip over tighter...particularly the better ones.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Golf and pool are not the same, but many are referencing it because there are similarities.

Spend enough time in golf and you will meet or read about proponents of a soft and firm grip. No one recommends a death grip, but plenty of instructors and pro's advise a firm grip, say a level 6-7 on a scale of 1-10. Others recommend a softer grip. I spent a lot of time using both.

For myself, a firm grip worked well because it was a lot easier to maintain a consistent grip pressure throughout the swing. This was extremely helpful when playing under pressure and on full length shots where the natural tendency is to grab harder at the transition.

A firm grip also made my swing less "handsy", which led to more consistency.

As a newer pool player, I am experiencing similar things as I did in golf.

 

[Bambu]

I'd like to see if anybody here can make any comments. I don't have a specific question other than "What do you think"?

I got a new Galaxy S4 phone a few months ago, and have been taking video of my stroke from the back, in slow motion. I did this to help analyze and improve my stroke. I had a decent stroke before, but as a result of this kind on analysis, it has definitely gotten better. I highly recommend slow motion recording to help you improve, even if you think you have a great stroke already.

Anyway, I usually hold the cue loosely with a big gap between my palm and the cue. In other words, the thumb and pointer finger form a loop that the cue rests on (along with the middle finger) and there is a large gap between the cue and that fleshy web like skin between the thumb and pointer finger. The slow motion video revealed that this gap gets closed as I swing forward, and in the process the cue tends to bounce around a little.

My father has been helping to make observations and he has been looking at the strokes of all the pro players he can find. All of them grip the cue with no daylight between the fingers and the cue, unlike how I've been doing it. So I'm gripping more snugly (as opposed to tightly) to see what happens. On the one hand it feels a little more "stable" but on the other it feels like it prevents full relaxation of the arm.

My father made the following observations in an email:

I've been thinking and thinking about the hand/finger position and suddenly had an idea. It occurred to me that the reason we've been unable to pin down the "correct" way to grip the cue is that there IS no correct way. So what we are confronted with is a rather broad range of positions. And perhaps it is just that each of these players has somehow become expert at holding it one particular way. But that doesn't mean that it's "wrong" if Player A does it slightly different from Player B. It's just that A has found a particular method that works for him, but B has done it slightly differently.
What is missing is that we're unable to see a "compressed time" picture of all the years each of them has put in and how it developed that he has finalized on one particular "best" way which works for him (or her). So Loree Jon Jones has 7 preliminary strokes, Allison Fisher and John Schmidt have 3 and Willie is all over the place, varying it. So there we have several experts doing that particular thing differently. A warmup stroke is easy to analyze since all we have to do is count the number of times you do it. But with the grip it's more difficult because the things which are varying are harder to see. We have no way of knowing exactly how tightly each player is gripping the cue. Willie says in his instructional videotape (which you have): "Don't grip it like a baseball bat." Yet we see many players seemingly doing exactly that except we know they're not really holding it as tight as Lou Gehrig. The most extreme I ever saw was Balsis. He always had all 5 fingers wrapped around it, but again we have no way of knowing how tight. We do know that you can't swivel your wrist if you hold all fingers too tightly. And if you don't swivel your wrist you get a "pump handle" action which everyone but this guy Davis avoids.
I have no idea if any of the above has merit, but it's what I've been wondering about.

Thanks for reading!

I recommend a light grip too, but that doesn't mean a firmer grip cant work. I've seen a couple of "A" players who play with a tight grip. Doesn't mean its "correct" but it works for them.

I think your father is right, but I'm not sure about the wrist part. Its true you cant use wrist and a tight grip together, makes sense. But, why would you need to use wrist to avoid a pump type stroke? Other than say, Bustamante(and Finnegan at Steinway) I don't see that pump stroke too often.

 

[ronscuba]

Pool and golf are alike in three ways. The ball doesn't move until we strike it (so it's not reactionary, like other sports); there's no opponent (playing against yourself); and the swing is a circle, where we want to strike the ball at the bottom of the circle. More professional instructors in both sports recommend looser grip over tighter...particularly the better ones.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, on a scale of 1-10, what grip pressure are you recommending ? Do you recommend a constant grip pressure or does the grip tighten or close at the end of the stroke ?

I see many players open the pinky and ring finger on the pull back and close those fingers on the forward stroke.

 

[West Point 1987]

One of the worst mistakes to make when watching a pro shoot, is to make assumptions about his/her grip. For example, folks watch Thorsten Hohmann (especially on videos), they see his "fist-like" grip with knuckles prominently exposed, and they think he's gripping the cue like a deathgrip, or at least "very, very firmly."

The truth is, unless you watch that person close up -- or even have a chat with him/her -- what you see isn't necessarily what you think. Thorsten actually has a very soft grip on the cue, and it's a classic cradle, just that he wraps the fingers all the way around the cue and forms a "cage" that the cue rests in, rather than a "shelf" that the cue rests onto. If you watch carefully, you can even see daylight on top of, and in some rare cases, around the top 3/4 (sides) of the cue.

I mention this, because I see folks saying "tight" or "firm" grip when describing a grip where the fingers form a cage around the entire circumference of the cue, and it truly is a misnomer.

As another example, watch Buddy Hall's grip -- same thing. He probably has the most classic "fist grip" out there, but rest assured -- that cue is just resting on the fleshy pads of his fingers.

The one thing that your grip is supposed to do, is guide the cue, without side-to-side yaw. Many folks -- like Thorsten and Buddy -- accomplish this with a stiff wrist and somewhat-locked fingers, but the contact with the cue is very light, to allow the hand to pivot around the cue as the forearm goes through its normal pendulum motion. The hand, then, is just a "sleeve" that the cue rests into, and is guided by.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

This is a good picture of Thorsten, but I wonder if he maybe released his grip a bit at the end of his follow through...I just watched a couple of hours of his matches, and I noticed that he definitely has tension in his forearm (you can see the muscles move as he grips the cue). If I ever have the honor of meeting Thorsten, I'm definitely going to ask him.

 

[sfleinen]

This is a good picture of Thorsten, but I wonder if he maybe released his grip a bit at the end of his follow through...I just watched a couple of hours of his matches, and I noticed that he definitely has tension in his forearm (you can see the muscles move as he grips the cue).

Again, this is a mistake. Just because he may be putting a little tension in making a rigid "cage" with his hand, doesn't mean that firm pressure is applied to the cue. Watch his grip from behind, and you'll see. Many times, the camera angle in matches won't allow a rear view of his grip, because then the shot itself is blocked from the camera, so rear views of a player's grip are rare. In person or "live," this is a different story.

Also, you might recall that Thorsten uses the Lucasi Hybrid cues, which all have rubber grips. There's absolutely no reason at all to have to grip the cue firmly. The rubber grips offer all the tack he needs to keep the cue stable in flight.

If I ever have the honor of meeting Thorsten, I'm definitely going to ask him.

Absolutely -- the best thing you can do is get it from the horse's mouth. Like I did.

-Sean

 

[Pidge]

Again, this is a mistake. Just because he may be putting a little tension in making a rigid "cage" with his hand, doesn't mean that firm pressure is applied to the cue. Watch his grip from behind, and you'll see. Many times, the camera angle in matches won't allow a rear view of his grip, because then the shot itself is blocked from the camera, so rear views of a player's grip are rare. In person or "live," this is a different story.

Also, you might recall that Thorsten uses the Lucasi Hybrid cues, which all have rubber grips. There's absolutely no reason at all to have to grip the cue firmly. The rubber grips offer all the tack he needs to keep the cue stable in flight.



Absolutely -- the best thing you can do is get it from the horse's mouth. Like I did.

-Sean

The rear view is a good point. At this years World Snooker Champs I was watching Ronnie O'Sullivan and I got a good close up of his grip from behind. He opens and closes his hand with the fingers moving in a "wave" like fashion when feathering the ball ALL the time. This would also make his tendons and muscles move in his forearm if he wasn't wearing a long sleeve shirt.

I have no idea why he does it though. Tension relief and timing would be my guess, just like tapping your fingers in your bridge hand.

 

[Scott Lee]

People are different. What I recommend is focusing on letting the cue do the work, as opposed to 'clenching' the cue and using muscle and force to drive it through the CB. For me personally, I would guess that my cradle pressure stays somewhere around a 3-4 on your scale. The thing I stress to students is to be consistent...loose if you can, but consistent throughout the backswing and forward stroke. A smooth transition plays a large role in making this happen. Just because the hand opens on the backswing and closes on the forward stroke doesn't necessarily mean too much pressure is being applied.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, on a scale of 1-10, what grip pressure are you recommending ? Do you recommend a constant grip pressure or does the grip tighten or close at the end of the stroke ?

I see many players open the pinky and ring finger on the pull back and close those fingers on the forward stroke.

 

[CreeDo]

Good on you to video your stroke. It's something a lot of people underrate even though
the forum and instructors recommend it over and over.

The grip is something that people can definitely overthink.
I try not to fool with it unless it's causing problems.

#1 problem I see is when people grip tightly trying to do power draw strokes
or the break. As their arm swings forward, if the fingers don't "give" a little,
the whole stick swings forward and then upward at the end.

They don't realize they're going upward at the end, it's not like they're pointing the stick 90 degrees
straight up at the end of their stroke. It's a very small upward motion right at the finish.
Say 1 degree upward. But that's enough to turn a nice low power draw shot into a lousy centerball hit
that just sits there instead of sucking backward nicely.

You can let the fingers give, or to prevent the upward motion you can let the wrist bend backward instead.
I believe this is what CJ calls the hammer stroke. I haven't played with it but it seems like
a decent solution to a straightforward physics problem.

 

[ronscuba]

People are different. What I recommend is focusing on letting the cue do the work, as opposed to 'clenching' the cue and using muscle and force to drive it through the CB. For me personally, I would guess that my cradle pressure stays somewhere around a 3-4 on your scale. The thing I stress to students is to be consistent...loose if you can, but consistent throughout the backswing and forward stroke. A smooth transition plays a large role in making this happen. Just because the hand opens on the backswing and closes on the forward stroke doesn't necessarily mean too much pressure is being applied.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks Scott. Agreed, people are different. Reminds me of a really good book on golf swing mechanics called the Laws of The Golf Swing. Depending on body type, size, height, etc., golf swing setup positions and mechanics are different.

Getting back to pool. Firm grip pressure can mean different things to different people, which is why I used a number.

For myself, less moving parts helps make my stroke straighter and more consistent. I may change in the future as I improve, but right now, a firm grip is working well. With a loose grip, my stroke tends to be more wristy and I have to fight the tendency to clench. I haven't been playing long enough to open-close my hand during the stroke and keep it straight.

I also switched from a linen wrap to textured leather. Linen was too slick and I had to hold my cue tight or clench on the forward stroke to prevent it from sliding.

 

[owll]

This is a good picture of Thorsten, but I wonder if he maybe released his grip a bit at the end of his follow through...I just watched a couple of hours of his matches, and I noticed that he definitely has tension in his forearm (you can see the muscles move as he grips the cue). If I ever have the honor of meeting Thorsten, I'm definitely going to ask him.

This is something i've been working on recently with my own game...one of the things i've tried that i like somewhat is keeping my middle finger tight on the cue and letting rock on this point....this gives me a constant pivot/breakover point ...and seems to be line me up straighter on shots....

Look at pic of thorsten, his middle finger seems to be tight on the cue....i wonder if he is keeping that one finger consistently tight with the other ones loose, to give himself a constant and consistent point for cue to pivot on....I dont know, just my thoughts.