Hal Houle CTE Explanation from 1997

Roger is one of the nicest, politest, and most insightful posters on this board.

Given the choice between going to you for lessons, and him -- it's not even a contest -- Roger wins pulling away.

Lou Figueroa

I wouldn't go to me for lessons. I am not qualified to teach anyone how to play pool.

I am however open minded enough as a "student" of the game to allow for the possibility that something may work which I don't know how to do and I strive not to ridicule those things I don't even know how to do or the people who teach those things when it comes to pool.
 
This is getting a bit over the top....IMO

It is very easy to "read in" the wrong vibe of a post....Perhaps some of Rogers post's were supposed to be some form of humer...but... came accross the wrong way to you...

It seems (to me) like becuase your "think" Roger is dead set against CTE and that you think he is looking for ways to say that CTE does not work......In reality it is starting to appear to me like you are "looking" for comments from Roger that you can point at and say....."See you are bashing CTE"

IMO.....Roger is as much of a student of the game as anyone on this board....and probably does have a genuine interest in learning all he can about "all" aiming systems.

BTW...since you are bringing Religion into this...Ya know there are people in this world that even though they are avid supporters of a specific Religion.....Know more about "other" Religions than the avid supporters of that Religion.



Peace Out....

I am not the only person who has this opinion of Roger, I am sure that you are well aware that not all people who participate and lurk on AZ allow all their private thoughts to be public. There are a lot of private conversations happening. One only has to do a basic user search to find out where Roger stands in the subject of CTE. In a classroom setting how far does the student get who ridicules the teacher?

Roger may well be a student of the game but when it comes to CTE he is not acting like one.

And yes, I am bringing religion into it. When a person wears a shirt that advertises his Christianity then I expect him to display the basic tenants of Christianity in his comment and dealings with others or change his advertisement.

So forgive me if I can't let such a hypocritical comment pass where Roger claims to "just want to learn CTE."

But I don't want to talk about Roger Long anymore. In the scheme of things he is not significant. When CTE is finally accepted as a legitimate method of aiming then he will either learn it and teach it if he can or he won't.
 
Hal explained the same system to me with a minor variation...He told me he called it the 3-line method.....Instead of using the edge of the CB to aim to one of three points on the OB....He exlained a method of aiming the "center" of the CB to one of three points on the OB.

What you will find interesting is that after CTE aimers do the bridge length and pivot adjustments....they will end up at one of the 3-line aim points.

I have looked at many many diagrams showing aiming methods....every one of them (so far) has ended up being one of the 3-line aim points.

I personally like aiming using center CB as much as possible (I actually do use a version of CTE for aiming real thin cuts)...but I really prefer a center CB starting point..

CTE users perhaps are more comfortable with the pivot method because it helps them confirm the aim is correct...absolutly nothing wrong with that.

You are going to do "something" to create your aim...it is just a matter of "what" is most comfortable for you.

Even the "PIITH" system users.....If you asked them the right questions in the right way...the real system they use would emerge.....weather they conciously know it or not...

This is correct. I use a couple other of Hal's systems to double check the CTE aim and it's always right on.
 
What would you say if you could follow a few steps and always be within 0.08" of the base of the ghost ball without ever using the ghost ball as a reference? Would that be called "set it and forget it?"

I'm gonna change my avatar to a peacock when we're done with this technical doc because that's how I'm gonna be walking from point A to point B for weeks to come.

Hopefully then Hal will get the recognition he deserves as one of the most profound pool instructors of all time (which he is - no doubt). His thought process is on another level. My prayer is that those who knock him and mock him will man-up and acknowledge his accomplishment when the proper information is presented.

I'm very excited for this info to be released and I also don't mind paying for the good stuff. Any news on how the videos coming along?
 
Hal houle has never asked a cent for inormation

I am not giving away CTE lessons,I am giving CTE lessons and they are not going to be free.And I don't think spidey or Stan are giving it away either
Peteypooldude


in all the years hal houle has posted he has given his information free by pohone or i you wanted to visit him--free as well.

as Hal houles friend and long time mentor, i feel the need to again speak out!

i see , now that hal is not posting and monitoring the forums due to ill health that we have 2 things going on!
1. players suggesting this was their system all along and they discovered it! (OR A LITTLE SYSTEM I DISCOVERED)
2. players wanting to charge to teach it.

HERE'S WHAT I SAY --HOW DARE ANY OF YOU? WE ALL KNOW WHERE THESE SYSTEMS CAME FROM.CTE SPECIICALLY ALONG WITH MORE. WE ALL KNOW WHO HAS TAUGHT THEM TO YOU FOR FREE WITH THE IDEA YOU PASS THEM ON FOR FREE!
HOW DARE ANY OFYOU DESIGRATE HAL HOULES:angry: NAME BY CLAIMING THESE SYSTEMS OR TRYING TO CHARGE FOR THEM? I DONT WANT TO HEAR THE BULL ABOUT OH! WELL I USED THIS LONG BEORE HAL---BULL---
 
hi mike , long time since RSB

they're different things.

In my opinion the old one is the better of the two.
Those who have been around in the newsgroup community since back then know that the kinds of testimonials we see now about the new one were completely paralleled by testimonials about the old one back then.

Many people had "dramatic improvements."

it was the secret of many pros.

It had to be learned at the table

the people most concerned with understanding and critical analysis of the claims were criticized as being overly pedantic.

Etc.


they are 2 different systems, but at the end o the day they both do the same thing. Hal taught them seperately as hard to teach the stick systems on the phone.nice talkin with you again
 
Mike,

As I said I get a nice solid hit and a better break using the CTE method to aim my break shot. That turned out to be a nice by product of adopting this method. Not everyone's results may be the same.

Your characterization of the process does not describe what I do. If you want to learn just what I do then I highly suggest that you find someone who can show it to you. There is no estimation involved - my bridge hand goes in the same place every time relative to the shot.

You're right that conceptually a straight shot (100% full ball collision) is the one which would seem to be the easiest to line up and execute.

How do you line up a straight shot? You tell me first how you do it and then I will tell you one method of how I do it. Not CTE.

Clearly once a person is in line then it's all about execution. But my question to you is how do you KNOW that you are dead in line on the straight shot before you pull the trigger?

John:

I don't want to step between you and Mike, but I did want to address this last question. The root/core answer is FUNDAMENTALS.

I'll elaborate, but first I'll commend you on not making the same mistake that Hal did when expressing this. You question, "how does one know one is dead in-line to the shot," which is a very valid question with a simple and oft-overlooked answer (fundamentals). You didn't ask it as Hal did, which was, "how do you know it's a straight-in shot, and not a 3-degree cut," -- a very stupid/condescending question from someone that obviously underestimates his students' ability to get behind the shot and readily recognize a straight-in from a slight cut.

Getting back to elaborating, it is true that pool players, with their lack of regimented fundamentals, are most VULNERABLE to not knowing if they are truly dead in-line with the shot. There are as many different pool stances / arm positions / grips / lining-up the head and eyes / etc. as there are positions for the sun in the sky. There's a reason why we're seeing things like pivot-based aiming, "Perfect Aim" (which is really only about head/eye alignment), etc., and we're not seeing even a brief mention of those things in other more regimented / more precise pocket-based cue sports like snooker, Pyramid, et al. It's because there's a void in pool that these things fill.

You saw the responses that a question about CTE got on the snooker forum. I was talking to a really strong snooker player the other day, and I asked him about pivot-based aiming (he'd not heard of it, so I had to explain to him the basic tenets of the technique). He responded with an analogy, which up until that point, I hadn't thought of, but it made perfect sense. He said that pivot-based aiming, to him, sounded like using the lane markers in bowling. Beginners use the lane markers because these are much closer and easier to aim at than the stack of pins 19 meters away. Advanced players, with their advanced fundamentals, eschew the lane markers and instead are able to aim directly at the stack of pins using the boards, and they aim for a spot on the boards much farther away, close to the stack, that they want the ball to travel over with a certain spin, to hit a certain spot on the stack between the head pin and the second row (the strike "sweet spot" as we all know).

Advanced players are able to do this, because the subconscious muscle memory is able to help them deliver the ball accurately, and no brain CPU cycles need be wasted on this endeavor. Just speed and spin.

In pool, the analogy is that the CTEL is the lane marker. The idea is that it's much easier to aim at this, then to try to aim at the ghost ball positioned at the correct spot next to the object ball in line to pocket that object ball in a pocket an even further distance away. Delivery, here, is the main problem for every pool player. Delivering that cue accurately. Unfortunately, there's probably a good sum of players that may have adopted pivot-based aiming to address a problem that wasn't an aiming problem to begin with. A lot of players underestimate their natural ability to perceive the shot, and may've [mistakenly] discarded their natural ability to adopt an aiming system that doesn't require you to perceive anything -- just point, [blindly] pivot a certain arbitrary amount, and shoot. Just believe in the system, and you'll have success. The unfortunate thing is, the problem probably wasn't aiming all along -- it was a cue delivery (or even head/eye alignment) problem, that would be better long-term addressed with focused attention on fundamentals. It's much analogous to turning up the volume on the car stereo to mask noises heard in the engine. It makes the driving experience more pleasant, but is certainly not good for the car, and the car is going to break down, sooner or later.

Anyway, that's my thoughts wrapped around that interesting analogy relayed to me by a really good snooker player.

Thoughts, anyone?
-Sean
 
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John:

I don't want to step between you and Mike, but I did want to address this last question. The root/core answer is FUNDAMENTALS.

I'll elaborate, but first I'll commend you on not making the same mistake that Hal did when expressing this. You question, "how does one know one is dead in-line to the shot," which is a very valid question with a simple and oft-overlooked answer (fundamentals). You didn't ask it as Hal did, which was, "how do you know it's a straight-in shot, and not a 3-degree cut," -- a very stupid/condescending question from someone that obviously underestimates his students' ability to get behind the shot and readily recognize a straight-in from a slight cut.

Getting back to elaborating, it is true that pool players, with their lack of regimented fundamentals, are most VULNERABLE to not knowing if they are truly dead in-line with the shot. There are as many different pool stances / arm positions / grips / lining-up the head and eyes / etc. as there are positions for the sun in the sky. There's a reason why we're seeing things like pivot-based aiming, "Perfect Aim" (which is really only about head/eye alignment), etc., and we're not seeing even a brief mention of those things in other more regimented / more precise pocket-based cue sports like snooker, Pyramid, et al. It's because there's a void in pool that these things fill.

You saw the responses that a question about CTE got on the snooker forum. I was talking to a really strong snooker player the other day, and I asked him about pivot-based aiming (he'd not heard of it, so I had to explain to him the basic tenets of the technique). He responded with an analogy, which up until that point, I hadn't thought of, but it made perfect sense. He said that pivot-based aiming, to him, sounded like using the lane markers in bowling. Beginners use the lane markers because these are much closer and easier to aim at than the stack of pins 19 meters away. Advanced players, with their advanced fundamentals, eschew the lane markers and instead are able to aim directly at the stack of pins using the boards, and they aim for a spot on the boards much farther away, close to the stack, that they want the ball to travel over with a certain spin, to hit a certain spot on the stack between the head pin and the second row (the strike "sweet spot" as we all know).

Advanced players are able to do this, because the subconscious muscle memory is able to help them deliver the ball accurately, and no brain CPU cycles need be wasted on this endeavor. Just speed and spin.

In pool, the analogy is that the CTEL is the lane marker. The idea is that it's much easier to aim at this, then to try to aim at the ghost ball positioned at the correct spot next to the object ball in line to pocket that object ball in a pocket an even further distance away. Delivery, here, is the main problem for every pool player. Delivering that cue accurately. Unfortunately, there's probably a good sum of players that may have adopted pivot-based aiming to address a problem that wasn't an aiming problem to begin with. A lot of players underestimate their natural ability to perceive the shot, and may've [mistakenly] discarded their natural ability to adopt an aiming system that doesn't require you to perceive anything -- just point, [blindly] pivot a certain arbitrary amount, and shoot. Just believe in the system, and you'll have success. The unfortunate thing is, the problem probably wasn't aiming all along -- it was a cue delivery (or even head/eye alignment) problem, that would be better long-term addressed with focused attention on fundamentals. It's much analogous to turning up the volume on the car stereo to mask noises heard in the engine. It makes the driving experience more pleasant, but is certainly not good for the car, and the car is going to break down, sooner or later.

Anyway, that's my thoughts wrapped around that interesting analogy relayed to me by a really good snooker player.

Thoughts, anyone?
-Sean

Yes, I think you described it most excellently! That's my thought, anyway.

Roger
 
John:

I don't want to step between you and Mike, but I did want to address this last question. The root/core answer is FUNDAMENTALS.

I'll elaborate, but first I'll commend you on not making the same mistake that Hal did when expressing this. You question, "how does one know one is dead in-line to the shot," which is a very valid question with a simple and oft-overlooked answer (fundamentals). You didn't ask it as Hal did, which was, "how do you know it's a straight-in shot, and not a 3-degree cut," -- a very stupid/condescending question from someone that obviously underestimates his students' ability to get behind the shot and readily recognize a straight-in from a slight cut.

Getting back to elaborating, it is true that pool players, with their lack of regimented fundamentals, are most VULNERABLE to not knowing if they are truly dead in-line with the shot. There are as many different pool stances / arm positions / grips / lining-up the head and eyes / etc. as there are positions for the sun in the sky. There's a reason why we're seeing things like pivot-based aiming, "Perfect Aim" (which is really only about head/eye alignment), etc., and we're not seeing even a brief mention of those things in other more regimented / more precise pocket-based cue sports like snooker, Pyramid, et al. It's because there's a void in pool that these things fill.

You saw the responses that a question about CTE got on the snooker forum. I was talking to a really strong snooker player the other day, and I asked him about pivot-based aiming (he'd not heard of it, so I had to explain to him the basic tenets of the technique). He responded with an analogy, which up until that point, I hadn't thought of, but it made perfect sense. He said that pivot-based aiming, to him, sounded like using the lane markers in bowling. Beginners use the lane markers because these are much closer and easier to aim at than the stack of pins 19 meters away. Advanced players, with their advanced fundamentals, eschew the lane markers and instead are able to aim directly at the stack of pins using the boards, and they aim for a spot on the boards much farther away, close to the stack, that they want the ball to travel over with a certain spin, to hit a certain spot on the stack between the head pin and the second row (the strike "sweet spot" as we all know).

Advanced players are able to do this, because the subconscious muscle memory is able to help them deliver the ball accurately, and no brain CPU cycles need be wasted on this endeavor. Just speed and spin.

In pool, the analogy is that the CTEL is the lane marker. The idea is that it's much easier to aim at this, then to try to aim at the ghost ball positioned at the correct spot next to the object ball in line to pocket that object ball in a pocket an even further distance away. Delivery, here, is the main problem for every pool player. Delivering that cue accurately. Unfortunately, there's probably a good sum of players that may have adopted pivot-based aiming to address a problem that wasn't an aiming problem to begin with. A lot of players underestimate their natural ability to perceive the shot, and may've [mistakenly] discarded their natural ability to adopt an aiming system that doesn't require you to perceive anything -- just point, [blindly] pivot a certain arbitrary amount, and shoot. Just believe in the system, and you'll have success. The unfortunate thing is, the problem probably wasn't aiming all along -- it was a cue delivery (or even head/eye alignment) problem, that would be better long-term addressed with focused attention on fundamentals. It's much analogous to turning up the volume on the car stereo to mask noises heard in the engine. It makes the driving experience more pleasant, but is certainly not good for the car, and the car is going to break down, sooner or later.

Anyway, that's my thoughts wrapped around that interesting analogy relayed to me by a really good snooker player.

Thoughts, anyone?
-Sean

I would rather aim at precise points given to me by my CTE alignment then shoot at a ghost ball. The bowling ball thing, if I have the same delivery and the ball in theory rolls the same every time, then I want a pecise point to shoot at and not some ghost pin.
 
Sorry, but I claim B.S. on this one. He says beginners use the lane markers. Then says advanced bowlers aim directly at the stack of pins.... then says they don't aim at the stack of pins directly, but at certain boards they want the ball to go over. No difference aiming at certain boards, or at lane markers. Neither one is aiming directly at the pins.

Sounds more like he is just trying to say he has something that lower players don't have. And, I bet he is still using lane markers or boards to align himself to the lane to start with. Which is what CTE does. It puts you in the right place to start with.

Neil:

Let's not be word technicians here, ok? The spirit of the communication, not the letter of the communication. I think you know what he was getting at based on my [perhaps not-so-absolutely-faultlessly-clear] description.

The spirit of what he was trying to say was that advanced bowlers aim beyond the lane markers, and are aiming at both the "sweet spot" on the pin stack, and a spot on the boards near the stack. In other words, the ball has to hook over that spot on the boards to hit the sweet spot.

Look, I'm not calling the CTE baby ugly. And I dare you to find ANYWHERE where I did. Throughout, I maintain that while I'm a ghostballer, I am interested in CTE if only for the science/math mind of me in answering the question, "how does CTE arrive at the correct ghostball position?" Which is a valid question from an analytical mind. I may call those who spiel these incredible claims to the carpet, but I never belittle the CTE technique itself.

So in our thrust to gain knowledge about CTE, let's put the childish word technician games aside, ok?

Respectfully,
-Sean
 
I'm curious what his opinion is on BHE.

I didn't ask him, only because it was a question about "aiming systems" (specifically pivot-based). Methinks BHE (at least for him) might fall under the realm of "spin/throw compensation" or what-not. But next time I see him, though, I will ask.

-Sean
 
John:

I don't want to step between you and Mike, but I did want to address this last question. The root/core answer is FUNDAMENTALS.

I'll elaborate, but first I'll commend you on not making the same mistake that Hal did when expressing this. You question, "how does one know one is dead in-line to the shot," which is a very valid question with a simple and oft-overlooked answer (fundamentals). You didn't ask it as Hal did, which was, "how do you know it's a straight-in shot, and not a 3-degree cut," -- a very stupid/condescending question from someone that obviously underestimates his students' ability to get behind the shot and readily recognize a straight-in from a slight cut.

Getting back to elaborating, it is true that pool players, with their lack of regimented fundamentals, are most VULNERABLE to not knowing if they are truly dead in-line with the shot. There are as many different pool stances / arm positions / grips / lining-up the head and eyes / etc. as there are positions for the sun in the sky. There's a reason why we're seeing things like pivot-based aiming, "Perfect Aim" (which is really only about head/eye alignment), etc., and we're not seeing even a brief mention of those things in other more regimented / more precise pocket-based cue sports like snooker, Pyramid, et al. It's because there's a void in pool that these things fill.

You saw the responses that a question about CTE got on the snooker forum. I was talking to a really strong snooker player the other day, and I asked him about pivot-based aiming (he'd not heard of it, so I had to explain to him the basic tenets of the technique). He responded with an analogy, which up until that point, I hadn't thought of, but it made perfect sense. He said that pivot-based aiming, to him, sounded like using the lane markers in bowling. Beginners use the lane markers because these are much closer and easier to aim at than the stack of pins 19 meters away. Advanced players, with their advanced fundamentals, eschew the lane markers and instead are able to aim directly at the stack of pins using the boards, and they aim for a spot on the boards much farther away, close to the stack, that they want the ball to travel over with a certain spin, to hit a certain spot on the stack between the head pin and the second row (the strike "sweet spot" as we all know).

Advanced players are able to do this, because the subconscious muscle memory is able to help them deliver the ball accurately, and no brain CPU cycles need be wasted on this endeavor. Just speed and spin.

In pool, the analogy is that the CTEL is the lane marker. The idea is that it's much easier to aim at this, then to try to aim at the ghost ball positioned at the correct spot next to the object ball in line to pocket that object ball in a pocket an even further distance away. Delivery, here, is the main problem for every pool player. Delivering that cue accurately. Unfortunately, there's probably a good sum of players that may have adopted pivot-based aiming to address a problem that wasn't an aiming problem to begin with. A lot of players underestimate their natural ability to perceive the shot, and may've [mistakenly] discarded their natural ability to adopt an aiming system that doesn't require you to perceive anything -- just point, [blindly] pivot a certain arbitrary amount, and shoot. Just believe in the system, and you'll have success. The unfortunate thing is, the problem probably wasn't aiming all along -- it was a cue delivery (or even head/eye alignment) problem, that would be better long-term addressed with focused attention on fundamentals. It's much analogous to turning up the volume on the car stereo to mask noises heard in the engine. It makes the driving experience more pleasant, but is certainly not good for the car, and the car is going to break down, sooner or later.

Anyway, that's my thoughts wrapped around that interesting analogy relayed to me by a really good snooker player.

Thoughts, anyone?
-Sean

I tend to disagree (surprised?).

I have given my hypothetical of a player with perfect fundamentals who lines up wrong. Maybe he doesn't do it every shot but say on 30% of his shots. This player approaches the balls as he was taught, gets in the perfect stance, delivers the cue stick perfect through the cue ball at the right speed and misses the shot. 7 out of 10 times he makes the shot - i.e. lines up right to the shot and 3 out of 10 he misses it because his cue stick was slightly off the right line even though it FELT perfect to him.

So what do you tell this player how to fix his aiming problem? Just assume for a moment that EVERYTHING else about his game is perfect. You don't need to correct his stance, stroke, delivery, elbow, hair placement, anything. On paper he looks like the perfect player. Only his pocketing percentages are less than they should be given his perfect fundamentals.

How would you coach this player to fix his aiming and raise his pocketing percentages?
 
I tend to disagree (surprised?).

I have given my hypothetical of a player with perfect fundamentals who lines up wrong. Maybe he doesn't do it every shot but say on 30% of his shots. This player approaches the balls as he was taught, gets in the perfect stance, delivers the cue stick perfect through the cue ball at the right speed and misses the shot. 7 out of 10 times he makes the shot - i.e. lines up right to the shot and 3 out of 10 he misses it because his cue stick was slightly off the right line even though it FELT perfect to him.

So what do you tell this player how to fix his aiming problem? Just assume for a moment that EVERYTHING else about his game is perfect. You don't need to correct his stance, stroke, delivery, elbow, hair placement, anything. On paper he looks like the perfect player. Only his pocketing percentages are less than they should be given his perfect fundamentals.

How would you coach this player to fix his aiming and raise his pocketing percentages?

I'll chime in here if you don't mind.

In this case I'd have him shoot straight in shots all day. If he lines up with the back end of his cue too far to the left, he'd cut the ball to the left, and vice versa if he lines up with his cue too far to the right. Eventually he would find the spot where his cue is lined up perfectly, and he would know what it feels like when his arm is in the right spot- and eventually incorporate that into cut shots.

A system that helps you line up perfectly wouldn't hurt there either. Is CTE an aiming system or alignment system? I am very curious about learning it, but can't seem to find much information that really goes into detail.
 
Is CTE an aiming system or alignment system?

Both. The shooter has to accurately identify the CTEL and position his/her body accordingly. If the initial pre-pivot setup (and sighting) isn't accurate, the end result isn't accurate.

Many people who don't do well with CTE don't strive to be "perfect" with the initial alignment. As with anything, crap in = crap out.
 
I'll chime in here if you don't mind.

In this case I'd have him shoot straight in shots all day. If he lines up with the back end of his cue too far to the left, he'd cut the ball to the left, and vice versa if he lines up with his cue too far to the right. Eventually he would find the spot where his cue is lined up perfectly, and he would know what it feels like when his arm is in the right spot- and eventually incorporate that into cut shots.

A system that helps you line up perfectly wouldn't hurt there either. Is CTE an aiming system or alignment system? I am very curious about learning it, but can't seem to find much information that really goes into detail.

cuetechasaurus:

You've got the correct solution here. All practice is good as long as the player observes the results of every shot and then adjusts alignment whenever needed. Every time a shot is missed, the subconscious mind registers the result in the memory bank. Same thing happens every time a shot is made. Through doing this for extended periods of time, a huge amount of information is stored as what we call "muscle" memory. Then, whenever we line up on a shot the wrong way, our subconscious mind says, "No, remember what happened the last time you tried to shoot the shot that way?" And then when we adjust to the right alignment the subconscious mind says, "There, that's where you was at whenever you hit this shot correctly." This is what I believe shooting by "feel" is all about.

But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using an aiming/alignment system to accelerate this whole process. :thumbup:

Roger
 
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