lol, back at ya'! Is this all it takes to get a discussion going, lol?
Best,
Mike
hammer stroke
- Thread starter Pete
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lol, back at ya'! Is this all it takes to get a discussion going, lol?
Best,
Mike
the common denominators of ALL shots have been unified in a systematic way.
Yes, that was Buddy Hall and Billy Incardona doing commentary.
One of the toughest shots if you DON'T use TOI is a long shot that has a slight angle....you have to "aim" a little off center and it gives even advanced pros a hard time. It's actually easier to have either a straight in shot or more of an angle on longer shots.
With the 'Touch of Inside' Technique you just align it like it IS straight in and create the Angle by slightly moving the cue tip inside (left TOI if the angle is left, right TOI if the angle is to the right). Then just hit it like it's straight in and let the TOI cut it slightly.
You'll notice in that match with Steve Mizerak that I shoot most of my shots (when I can) with the same shot speed. This assures the same deflection movement of the cue ball and when you "click" on a table it's like all the shots are suddenly the same.
This is what we strive for - the shots to become similar in angle creation, shot speed and cue ball target. Then the game gets very, very simple because the common denominators of ALL shots have been unified in a systematic way.....the TOI Way.
'Let the Game be Your Teacher' - www.cjwiley.com
Yes, that was Buddy Hall and Billy Incardona doing commentary.
One of the toughest shots if you DON'T use TOI is a long shot that has a slight angle....you have to "aim" a little off center and it gives even advanced pros a hard time. It's actually easier to have either a straight in shot or more of an angle on longer shots.
With the 'Touch of Inside' Technique you just align it like it IS straight in and create the Angle by slightly moving the cue tip inside (left TOI if the angle is left, right TOI if the angle is to the right). Then just hit it like it's straight in and let the TOI cut it slightly.
You'll notice in that match with Steve Mizerak that I shoot most of my shots (when I can) with the same shot speed. This assures the same deflection movement of the cue ball and when you "click" on a table it's like all the shots are suddenly the same.
This is what we strive for - the shots to become similar in angle creation, shot speed and cue ball target. Then the game gets very, very simple because the common denominators of ALL shots have been unified in a systematic way.....the TOI Way.
'Let the Game be Your Teacher' - www.cjwiley.com
I agree with CJ.
TOI has made those long slight angle shots so much more consistent. With TOI one can even focus on hitting a part of the pocket to aid in CB position instead of worrying whether you are going to cut it that hair too much or that hair not enough which can make you mis either the ball or position.
It's much easier to hit that touch of inside than it it is to hit the exact center of the cue ball.
Hitting them with TOI gives a whole other option for position than hitting them with a touch of english to throw the OB. Also the throw can be too much or not enough.
TOI works more consistently for those shots. At least for me.
Best,
Rick
TOI has made those long slight angle shots so much more consistent. With TOI one can even focus on hitting a part of the pocket to aid in CB position instead of worrying whether you are going to cut it that hair too much or that hair not enough which can make you mis either the ball or position.
It's much easier to hit that touch of inside than it it is to hit the exact center of the cue ball.
Hitting them with TOI gives a whole other option for position than hitting them with a touch of english to throw the OB. Also the throw can be too much or not enough.
TOI works more consistently for those shots. At least for me.
Best,
Rick
With long shots that have a slight angle...
If you ask any CTE Pro One user they will say its simple. Just as easy as any other long shot.
If you ask users of SEE they will says its simple. Just as easy as any other long shot.
If you ask users of TOI they will say its simple. Just as easy as any other long shot.
At the end of the day if you are accomplished in what ever aiming system you use, there are no hard or tough shots. Users of any of the above aiming methods can hit any part of the pocket they wish. The problem comes in executing it. If you have a shot to the right that's slightly off straight and you are aiming to the left 3rd of the pocket and you don't deflect the CB enough, you will hit the ball too thick, or even worse hit the wrong side of the OB. The same can be said for any aiming system. If you don't hit the CB where you intend you are more often than not going to miss.
There is no "well I hit the ball with English so this gives me a bigger margin for error"...no. Just no.
If there was a magical, super awesome, never fails way to maximize your odds of making a ball, don't you think everyone would be using it? From the league players to the pros? Every single player would use it, and sadly there is no such thing.
If you ask any CTE Pro One user they will say its simple. Just as easy as any other long shot.
If you ask users of SEE they will says its simple. Just as easy as any other long shot.
If you ask users of TOI they will say its simple. Just as easy as any other long shot.
At the end of the day if you are accomplished in what ever aiming system you use, there are no hard or tough shots. Users of any of the above aiming methods can hit any part of the pocket they wish. The problem comes in executing it. If you have a shot to the right that's slightly off straight and you are aiming to the left 3rd of the pocket and you don't deflect the CB enough, you will hit the ball too thick, or even worse hit the wrong side of the OB. The same can be said for any aiming system. If you don't hit the CB where you intend you are more often than not going to miss.
There is no "well I hit the ball with English so this gives me a bigger margin for error"...no. Just no.
If there was a magical, super awesome, never fails way to maximize your odds of making a ball, don't you think everyone would be using it? From the league players to the pros? Every single player would use it, and sadly there is no such thing.
Pidge can you 'aim' or target a ball to hit a point where it misses & still make it with a center hit on the CB?
Wow! Only in the last month have I been able to hit the perfectly straight long shot with consistency. It's the last piece of the puzzle, the crossing of the "T," the dotting of the "i" in my ball pocketing adventure. Move the ball 1/4 inch to either side and I find it much easier.
Why would I possibly want to do that, Rick?
I aim or target a ball to go into the hole with a centre ball hit. Why would I want to aim centre ball for the OB to miss? That's just crazy talk!
But as BeiberLvr says, think rail first.
CIT...
Bank...
Come to think of it Rick, I can do lots with centre ball :O
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The cue ball is the target, not the object ball, it's movement is only a reflection
You're on the right path, putting one piece together at time, that's how I look at my own game as well, I took it apart a year ago and it's just now coming completely back together....only now it's technically more effective, with even less variables.
With time players are discovering that the TOI Technique is not an "aiming system," it's an overall playing system that teaches a way to get into the Zone, and connect your self to each shot using a consistent shot speed, and cue ball target.
Even if someone has the perfect "aiming system" they still have to adjust for speed, spin, deflection and this is directly related to their cue ball targeting. TOI has less veritables on the cue ball, so there's less factors to adjust for time after time.
The cue ball is the target, not the object ball, it's movement is a reflection of how we contact the cue ball (with the TIP)....this is true for all the players that play the game, no matter what their skill level. 'The Game is the Teacher'.com
You're on the right path, putting one piece together at time, that's how I look at my own game as well, I took it apart a year ago and it's just now coming completely back together....only now it's technically more effective, with even less variables.
With time players are discovering that the TOI Technique is not an "aiming system," it's an overall playing system that teaches a way to get into the Zone, and connect your self to each shot using a consistent shot speed, and cue ball target.
Even if someone has the perfect "aiming system" they still have to adjust for speed, spin, deflection and this is directly related to their cue ball targeting. TOI has less veritables on the cue ball, so there's less factors to adjust for time after time.
The cue ball is the target, not the object ball, it's movement is a reflection of how we contact the cue ball (with the TIP)....this is true for all the players that play the game, no matter what their skill level. 'The Game is the Teacher'.com
I have no idea why I am even doing this.
I meant, hit the point to where it does not go in the pocket, not a rail first hit & 'rattle' in.
Think the non percentage side point on the mis 'side' of the point.
We all know what you're trying to get at here. That TOI is the greatest thing ever.
Well I did purchase the online video, and spent about 4 weeks using nothing but TOI. It works, but it's just not for me.
Actually, like Neil & Sean who also think that they are omniscient & can read minds, you are wrong.
I was thinking of hitting such a ball with english to throw the OB in. That makes the ball go in from inside the over cut side of the pocket all the way to a point aimed outside the pocket on the full hit side of the pocket.
Pidge is of PJ's thinking on margin for error & while we all know that the balls & the pockets do not actually change size for any particular method. There are advantages to hitting the ball off center with the appropriate plan & line, not just for pocketing balls but for position sake as well.
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TOI just gives you a few more "tools" and/or helps to understand and utilize your...
I would venture to guess you learned some new shots that you will always use. The TOI training simply shows a style and type of pool that you won't learn unless you commit to this unique system of play...
Using it all the time is certainly not for everyone, and that can be said about any example (we all develop our own style, even using a knife and fork).
It's best to develop your own style, the TOI just gives you a few more "tools" and/or helps to understand and utilize your own stroke better. Many players had little knowledge of how to use deflection to create pocket zones.
I have a feeling we could work together and you would benefit more with a few suggestions on how to maximize the advantages of TOI.
It takes more than 4 weeks to master all the eccentricities of the Touch of Inside System, and a lot of it depends on how sound your fundamentals are. It certainly will put an emphasis on how precisely you hit the cue ball and the feedback will be immediate.
"Different Strokes, [and Different TOI], for Different Folks"
I would venture to guess you learned some new shots that you will always use. The TOI training simply shows a style and type of pool that you won't learn unless you commit to this unique system of play...
Using it all the time is certainly not for everyone, and that can be said about any example (we all develop our own style, even using a knife and fork).
It's best to develop your own style, the TOI just gives you a few more "tools" and/or helps to understand and utilize your own stroke better. Many players had little knowledge of how to use deflection to create pocket zones.
I have a feeling we could work together and you would benefit more with a few suggestions on how to maximize the advantages of TOI.
It takes more than 4 weeks to master all the eccentricities of the Touch of Inside System, and a lot of it depends on how sound your fundamentals are. It certainly will put an emphasis on how precisely you hit the cue ball and the feedback will be immediate.
"Different Strokes, [and Different TOI], for Different Folks"
Why would I possibly want to do that, Rick?
I aim or target a ball to go into the hole with a centre ball hit. Why would I want to aim centre ball for the OB to miss? That's just crazy talk!
But as BeiberLvr says, think rail first.
CIT...
Bank...
Come to think of it Rick, I can do lots with centre ball :O
Or at least use common sense and use: a Touch of Whatever You Need (for Position or to Throw a Ball In).
Put another way, use what you need: TOWYN.
Lou Figueroa
I love acronyms
I would venture to guess you learned some new shots that you will always use. The TOI training simply shows a style and type of pool that you won't learn unless you commit to this unique system of play...
Using it all the time is certainly not for everyone, and that can be said about any example (we all develop our own style, even using a knife and fork).
It's best to develop your own style, the TOI just gives you a few more "tools" and/or helps to understand and utilize your own stroke better. Many players had little knowledge of how to use deflection to create pocket zones.
I have a feeling we could work together and you would benefit more with a few suggestions on how to maximize the advantages of TOI.
It takes more than 4 weeks to master all the eccentricities of the Touch of Inside System, and a lot of it depends on how sound your fundamentals are. It certainly will put an emphasis on how precisely you hit the cue ball and the feedback will be immediate.
"Different Strokes, [and Different TOI], for Different Folks"
I actually took to it pretty quickly. I watched the video once, and was able to make it work that day.
I think it'd be cool to spend the day together if we're ever in the same area. Although I'll be honest, I'd probably be more interested in picking your brain over topics besides TOI.
Why would I possibly want to do that, Rick?
I aim or target a ball to go into the hole with a centre ball hit. Why would I want to aim centre ball for the OB to miss? That's just crazy talk!
But as BeiberLvr says, think rail first.
CIT...
Bank...
Come to think of it Rick, I can do lots with centre ball :O
Pidge,
Jon jumped in. Please see my post #132.
I know you won't agree as you are of PJ's line of thinking on this.
When you combine a plan on how & where to hit the cue ball off center with an appropriate alignment, line, aim, there can be an increase allowance for not being perfect as one side has basically been eliminated.
It is my opinion, after playing with english all these past years, that TOI has an even better plan for not being perfect than my playing with english for all these years, because it allows one to mis the intended cue ball target all the way to center & still pocket the ball.
Rick
I'll just take on the second line. I'm a T.O.I. proponent and have been doing my own version of it for 17 years. (C.J.Wiley's version is much better) I find it to be highly effective, but if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for you. When I was using my own version I use to go into slumps with it where I would lose my perception of how to do it. I would then go back to center ball for a while. I would find that my center ball hit had improved from the last time I had used it. I would then go into slumps with center ball and go back to T.O.I. I would find that my T.O.I had improved from the last time I had used.
Acquiring skill in one stroke improves your skill in the other stroke. They compliment each other. So if you go back to center ball, by all means keep T.O.I on the back burner and bring it back out every now and then. You might find out you really did learn something during those 4 weeks.
I noticed this, too. It's like a constant placebo effect. When you try something different, it works really well for a while.
I switch back and forth and strangely enough I start playing better. Kind of makes the slumps go away. I play mainly with TOI, but if I'm starting to dog it, I switch to center cue ball. I guess the recalibration is needed for my feeble mind. Then I'm ready to get back to TOI, again.
I've noticed it for the last couple of months even though I'm used to TOI. My changeover is only a day or so. I wonder if my brain will figure it out eventually?
Best,
Mike
"The player with the most flexibility will have the most control."
I used to play top short stops and not use TOI for periods of time and sometimes I'd win, but usually I'd play pretty even with them. When we raised the bet I'd switch to the TOI and it was like shifting gears and hitting the "Nitro" button.
In hind sight going back and forth actually made my overall game stronger and gave me more flexibility. I am known for my "high gear" and this was always done by shifting into the "TOI MODE".
I actually never played the "center ball" game so when I wasn't favoring the inside of the cue ball I'd be favoring the outside.....I wouldn't suggest trying to hit the cue ball exactly straight (unless straight in or slow rolling) I'd recommend moving the cue ball either right or left with spin and/or deflection.
It's the same in golf, only on the shorter shots do you not intentionally "work" the golf ball or in tennis you use topspin or a "sliced" shot to curve or "work" the tennis ball slightly.
"The player with the most flexibility will have the most control."
I used to play top short stops and not use TOI for periods of time and sometimes I'd win, but usually I'd play pretty even with them. When we raised the bet I'd switch to the TOI and it was like shifting gears and hitting the "Nitro" button.
In hind sight going back and forth actually made my overall game stronger and gave me more flexibility. I am known for my "high gear" and this was always done by shifting into the "TOI MODE".
I actually never played the "center ball" game so when I wasn't favoring the inside of the cue ball I'd be favoring the outside.....I wouldn't suggest trying to hit the cue ball exactly straight (unless straight in or slow rolling) I'd recommend moving the cue ball either right or left with spin and/or deflection.
It's the same in golf, only on the shorter shots do you not intentionally "work" the golf ball or in tennis you use topspin or a "sliced" shot to curve or "work" the tennis ball slightly.
"The player with the most flexibility will have the most control."
? for CJ
Hi CJ,
As you may or may not know the dropping of the elbow & keeping the elbow fixed has been a topic of debate recently.
I do not & never have given one thought to my elbow in the many mnay years that I have played. I have just always focused on delivering the cue straight into & through the cue ball.
I had always used what would be called by most a loose grip where the cue sort of pivots as though there was a small rod that was running from the tops of my thumb & index finger through the butt of the cue.
When I went to using TOI my grip naturally firmed up with no real conscious thought by me. I have also not consciously used the hammer stroke but...again have been subconsciously stroking with a more compact stroke & hitting very many shots with just my wrist, hand, & fingers, with very little arm swing & the action has been that of your hammer action.
With a firm grip, if one swings the forearm with a fixed elbow or if one swings the whole arm from the shoulder & allows the elbow to drop, both methods would make the tip rise going through if some other movement is not made in conjunction with them.
Naturally, the hammer wrist action sends the tip down by it self with no other motion going along with it. So...the hammer wrist action & the arm swings with a frim grip want to send the tip in opposite directions but...the amount that is capable for both is not equal.
So..now to my question. Do you know what or do you have any thought as to anything else that offsets the greater amount of tip movement that would occur from the larger movement of the arm swings with a firm grip?
As I 'see' it, it is the extension of the forearm away from the upper arm as opposed to bringing them together. Am I correct, on the right track, or not? It that what your sword drill is about & if so would you care to elaborate on it?
As Always, Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
Hi CJ,
As you may or may not know the dropping of the elbow & keeping the elbow fixed has been a topic of debate recently.
I do not & never have given one thought to my elbow in the many mnay years that I have played. I have just always focused on delivering the cue straight into & through the cue ball.
I had always used what would be called by most a loose grip where the cue sort of pivots as though there was a small rod that was running from the tops of my thumb & index finger through the butt of the cue.
When I went to using TOI my grip naturally firmed up with no real conscious thought by me. I have also not consciously used the hammer stroke but...again have been subconsciously stroking with a more compact stroke & hitting very many shots with just my wrist, hand, & fingers, with very little arm swing & the action has been that of your hammer action.
With a firm grip, if one swings the forearm with a fixed elbow or if one swings the whole arm from the shoulder & allows the elbow to drop, both methods would make the tip rise going through if some other movement is not made in conjunction with them.
Naturally, the hammer wrist action sends the tip down by it self with no other motion going along with it. So...the hammer wrist action & the arm swings with a frim grip want to send the tip in opposite directions but...the amount that is capable for both is not equal.
So..now to my question. Do you know what or do you have any thought as to anything else that offsets the greater amount of tip movement that would occur from the larger movement of the arm swings with a firm grip?
As I 'see' it, it is the extension of the forearm away from the upper arm as opposed to bringing them together. Am I correct, on the right track, or not? It that what your sword drill is about & if so would you care to elaborate on it?
As Always, Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick