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hammer stroke
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
Actually, that's one of the biggest misconceptions there is. And I'm surprised at you, CJ. Like Buddy Hall, Thorsten "looks like" he's "fisting / death-gripping" the cue, but instead has one of the softest grips on the cue there is. This is an example of just looking at a picture, and believing what your eyes tells you just based on that one picture.
Here's a better example of Thorsten's grip -- notice the daylight you can see above the top of his cue and the webbing between his thumb and index finger:
I got to watch Thorsten's grip close-up in many of the 14.1 Challenges (I man the booth with several folks there at the SBE). A picture is one thing, but watching Thorsten in real life is quite another. One gets an appreciation for just how soft his grip is. And think about it -- he doesn't NEED to grip the cue firmly, because the Lucasi Hybrid cues he's fond of all have textured rubber grips. Just because you see what looks like "firm contact" and "fisting" the cue in pictures, doesn't mean the actual contact with the cue is that way. It's actually a "cage" type of cradle, for which the cue is "resting on the floor of."
-Sean
Actually, that's one of the biggest misconceptions there is. And I'm surprised at you, CJ. Like Buddy Hall, Thorsten "looks like" he's "fisting / death-gripping" the cue, but instead has one of the softest grips on the cue there is. This is an example of just looking at a picture, and believing what your eyes tells you just based on that one picture.
Here's a better example of Thorsten's grip -- notice the daylight you can see above the top of his cue and the webbing between his thumb and index finger:
I got to watch Thorsten's grip close-up in many of the 14.1 Challenges (I man the booth with several folks there at the SBE). A picture is one thing, but watching Thorsten in real life is quite another. One gets an appreciation for just how soft his grip is. And think about it -- he doesn't NEED to grip the cue firmly, because the Lucasi Hybrid cues he's fond of all have textured rubber grips. Just because you see what looks like "firm contact" and "fisting" the cue in pictures, doesn't mean the actual contact with the cue is that way. It's actually a "cage" type of cradle, for which the cue is "resting on the floor of."
-Sean
What you say is true.
I make a point of observing technique whenever I travel to big events and, by-and-large, the grips I see used by the top players are "soft."
Lou Figueroa
Keep stating the same thing over and over again and maybe it will finally be believed.
Like Lou I study players techniques at pro events I have attended. Soft grips are the norm.
In fact I would say there are three versions soft, softer and super soft.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Like Lou I study players techniques at pro events I have attended. Soft grips are the norm.
In fact I would say there are three versions soft, softer and super soft.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
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Hammer Down
This expression reminds me of the way John Brumback banks balls. The other Hammer would be the best breakers....Medina had a hammer break, and boom boom of course. To me its when the weight of your body and cue stick hit the sweet spot on the cue ball and the object ball at or near max speed.
This expression reminds me of the way John Brumback banks balls. The other Hammer would be the best breakers....Medina had a hammer break, and boom boom of course. To me its when the weight of your body and cue stick hit the sweet spot on the cue ball and the object ball at or near max speed.
I want to say something else too: what I have observed the top pros doing is the exact opposite "pinning" the CB.
At the US Open One pocket I saw so many guys doing the same thing -- shooting with an ascending cue -- I commented on it to AlanB while we were kibitzing at the TAR table. The top guys are not pinning anything and seem to be trying to avoid the effect.
Lou Figueroa
At the US Open One pocket I saw so many guys doing the same thing -- shooting with an ascending cue -- I commented on it to AlanB while we were kibitzing at the TAR table. The top guys are not pinning anything and seem to be trying to avoid the effect.
Lou Figueroa
Lou,
As Dennis Miller so often says, 'I could be wrong'.
But I don't think CJ was talking about the average pro or even the 'top' pros of today & I don't thing he was talking about one pocket either.
Best Wishes,
Rick
Most people see me play and think I'm gripping the cue "loosely" however........
Yes, playing straight pool is a finesse game and requires very little power. Most people see me play and think I'm gripping the cue "loosely" however, that's just the appearance, in actuality I'm gripping it quite firmly. You can see a space between the top on the cue when I'm using the "hammer release," but has no bearing on pressure.
I ask Earl Strickland about his pressure and he described it as "Death Grip"......again, in straight pool there's much more finesse, it's like putting in golf as opposed to the full shots.
Trying to learn with a "soft grip" leads to not having the power to play rotation games at a high level and "Power One Pocket" too. Scott Frost uses a "Pinning" stroke, and has very good control over the cue......AND he also have a great touch and finesse which indeed requires a softer grip.
There is a comfortable in between, however you can go from firm to soft, but less likely to be able to go from soft to firm. Therefore I'd recommend experimenting with a firm grip and develop that type of stroke so you can do whatever's required in the various games.
Actually, that's one of the biggest misconceptions there is. And I'm surprised at you, CJ. Like Buddy Hall, Thorsten "looks like" he's "fisting / death-gripping" the cue, but instead has one of the softest grips on the cue there is. This is an example of just looking at a picture, and believing what your eyes tells you just based on that one picture.
Here's a better example of Thorsten's grip -- notice the daylight you can see above the top of his cue and the webbing between his thumb and index finger:
I got to watch Thorsten's grip close-up in many of the 14.1 Challenges (I man the booth with several folks there at the SBE). A picture is one thing, but watching Thorsten in real life is quite another. One gets an appreciation for just how soft his grip is. And think about it -- he doesn't NEED to grip the cue firmly, because the Lucasi Hybrid cues he's fond of all have textured rubber grips. Just because you see what looks like "firm contact" and "fisting" the cue in pictures, doesn't mean the actual contact with the cue is that way. It's actually a "cage" type of cradle, for which the cue is "resting on the floor of."
-Sean
Yes, playing straight pool is a finesse game and requires very little power. Most people see me play and think I'm gripping the cue "loosely" however, that's just the appearance, in actuality I'm gripping it quite firmly. You can see a space between the top on the cue when I'm using the "hammer release," but has no bearing on pressure.
I ask Earl Strickland about his pressure and he described it as "Death Grip"......again, in straight pool there's much more finesse, it's like putting in golf as opposed to the full shots.
Trying to learn with a "soft grip" leads to not having the power to play rotation games at a high level and "Power One Pocket" too. Scott Frost uses a "Pinning" stroke, and has very good control over the cue......AND he also have a great touch and finesse which indeed requires a softer grip.
There is a comfortable in between, however you can go from firm to soft, but less likely to be able to go from soft to firm. Therefore I'd recommend experimenting with a firm grip and develop that type of stroke so you can do whatever's required in the various games.
Rick,
Sounds good to me.......I didn't realize I was talking to a couple of baseball swing experts with you and Mike. As I said previously, Stephen J. Gould was a scientist, an evolution expert, and also a huge baseball fan. He wrote a book called "Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville: A life long passion for baseball" I have not read the book, nor do I intend to, but this guy was quite an intellectual, and from the reviews I've read at amazon, he definately brings intellectualism into his observations of baseball. Maybe you guys might be interested. I'd provide a link if I were not a computer nit wit.
Sounds good to me.......I didn't realize I was talking to a couple of baseball swing experts with you and Mike. As I said previously, Stephen J. Gould was a scientist, an evolution expert, and also a huge baseball fan. He wrote a book called "Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville: A life long passion for baseball" I have not read the book, nor do I intend to, but this guy was quite an intellectual, and from the reviews I've read at amazon, he definately brings intellectualism into his observations of baseball. Maybe you guys might be interested. I'd provide a link if I were not a computer nit wit.
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That's the key....LESS follow through is more accurate and DOES NOT amplify "off target" contact with the cue ball. The "moment of truth" in the stroke is exactly AT the cue ball, not any further... strive to extend the TIP through the cue ball....that's all.
I've spent a lot of time "de programming" different player's follow throughs (it takes almost an hour each time).
For some reason the "common knowledge" in the pool world is that a long follow through is better.....and it's not true at all. Same with the "loose grip" (check out the picture of Thorsten H. on the Front Page of the AZ Web Site).....it's an example of "if you tell the same thing over and over it becomes "true," even if it's not" - 'The Game is the Teacher'
This is a very interesting thread too, and this is an interesting turn connecting it to the follow through related ones.
I wanted to point out that when certain champions refer to "long" follow through they do not mean "over-follow", just a "longer" follow through in certain cases, not without reason..
Besides this that "moment of truth" in tip-CB contact is very important as we know and it has variations.. The tip-CB contact time between a soft and a hard tip is only slightly different in terms of time but very different in terms of results..
As far as the grip is concerned again things are very relative.
It's good to advice a firm but loose grip without any space between butt and fingers but again, think of Bustamante's (and others) grip for eg.
Similar thing stands for pause, not adviced in Carom stroke preparation, necessary in Snooker stroke.
So yes, there are average "best" ways but not always applicable for an individual.
You may hold the cue lightly some times, you may pause sometimes and yes you may follow through longer sometimes, all these elements are not a "must", nor do they contradict with any of the "golden" standards, that's all..
Functional approach is one thing, analysis of shot techniques another and so on, everything has limits, players and science too..
"Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'. CJ Wiley
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There seems to be some confusion on "pinning" the cue ball. If I'm playing straight pool or one pocket, it will rarely happen. It doesn't need to happen. It's a stroke technique for power/spin.
The hammer stroke and pinning are like peas and carrots. You pin the cue ball and your body gravitates toward the hammer stroke. IOW, you do it without trying to do it.
I would say all advanced players will pin the cue ball on short, extreme spin shots. That's how you do them. Less follow through and lots of cue manipulation. Unless you're not an advanced player.
Best,
Mike
The hammer stroke and pinning are like peas and carrots. You pin the cue ball and your body gravitates toward the hammer stroke. IOW, you do it without trying to do it.
I would say all advanced players will pin the cue ball on short, extreme spin shots. That's how you do them. Less follow through and lots of cue manipulation. Unless you're not an advanced player.
Best,
Mike
Exactly so. I would have been in the camp with all the naysayers on this, until I saw the video of CJ playing Mizerak. I was in the process of reinventing my mechanics; I thought what the heck? I committed to TOI and later to the hammer stroke and pinning the CB. Everything is now anchored (shot line, stroke, tip-to-CB contact and the table, etc.). After almost 30 years, I wonder why I ever played any other way. It does take a little "suspension of disbelief" to commit to trying something new that you aren't sure works the way you think it should. Then very bright lightbulbs come on. Those that want to argue about physics and semantics can stick with what they are comfortable with...makes no difference to me. :grin:
lol, recently on "Dancing with the Stars" English channels Bruno Tonioli and compliments Petros and Mike's rumba:
Lou Figueroa
Lou Figueroa
Lou,
I'm not quite sure how to take that.
Insult?
If so, it was one of the best that I have received.
It made me laugh.
Best Wishes,
Rick
Crap. I thought all three were doing the Lambada together.
EDIT: ...with CJ providing the choreography.
-Sean
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That head ache created a burning desire to figure out how he did it,
I did the same thing after playing Vernon Elliot for those 12 hours in Indianapolis as a 19 year old. After it was over I had a severe head ache from trying to out maneuver Vernon playing "Roll Out Rules". I saw SO many new shots that night/day, but they all seemed to have the same theme........but what was it? He seemed to be doing something different with his TIP.
That head ache created a burning desire to figure out how he did it, how did he make that cue ball react the way he did where it "floated," "stunned," and created "unusual" zones.
If I had thought I "knew it all" and just continued with "my game" I would never have reached my highest level and reached the finals in the ESPN Championships three years in a row. I was WILLING to try something new.....something I didn't understand (at the time) and this desire to experiment created my overall game.
At some point our game becomes a blend of all those we've played.....and it's not necessarily if we won or lost, it's "how we were willing to play the game"....and recognize 'The Game is our very best Teacher'
The "Game" is a journey, not a destination, enjoy the journey, it's a trip.....or a TIP
I did the same thing after playing Vernon Elliot for those 12 hours in Indianapolis as a 19 year old. After it was over I had a severe head ache from trying to out maneuver Vernon playing "Roll Out Rules". I saw SO many new shots that night/day, but they all seemed to have the same theme........but what was it? He seemed to be doing something different with his TIP.
That head ache created a burning desire to figure out how he did it, how did he make that cue ball react the way he did where it "floated," "stunned," and created "unusual" zones.
If I had thought I "knew it all" and just continued with "my game" I would never have reached my highest level and reached the finals in the ESPN Championships three years in a row. I was WILLING to try something new.....something I didn't understand (at the time) and this desire to experiment created my overall game.
At some point our game becomes a blend of all those we've played.....and it's not necessarily if we won or lost, it's "how we were willing to play the game"....and recognize 'The Game is our very best Teacher'
The "Game" is a journey, not a destination, enjoy the journey, it's a trip.....or a TIP
C.J.,
As long as West Point brought up your match with Mizerak...I saw it somewhere about a year ago. The cue ball is maybe 8 inches from the short head rail and near the middle of the table. The object ball is half way between the cue ball and the corner pocket. It was not a big cut.
The announcer (Jerry Forsyth?) says "Wow! I can't believe C.J actually put himself in position to take that long of a shot." You fired it straight in without the least bit of hesitation. So I'm asking myself, why did Forsyth say that? The dude's a pro. It was long but it wasn't much of a cut?
The only reason for missing it would be unintentional english if it's a center ball hit or misjudged deflection in your case with T.O.I. Forsyth watches a lot of matches. From his reaction it's obvious those type shots are missed often
I rarely miss such shots on my 8 footer with 4/12 inch pockets. I concede it's entirely possible I would on a 9 footer. I don't know. It's also entirely possible that if a crowd of people and T.V. cameras were brought into my basement I'd hit the ceiling with the cue ball. I don't know.
I strongly suspect what Forsyth really meant was,"Wow! I know C.J and his fellow pro's rarely miss this type of shot when they're at home or at their poolroom, but given the closeness of this match and the obvious pressure attached, I can't believe C.J. Actually put himself in position to take that long a shot." Am I correct?
As long as West Point brought up your match with Mizerak...I saw it somewhere about a year ago. The cue ball is maybe 8 inches from the short head rail and near the middle of the table. The object ball is half way between the cue ball and the corner pocket. It was not a big cut.
The announcer (Jerry Forsyth?) says "Wow! I can't believe C.J actually put himself in position to take that long of a shot." You fired it straight in without the least bit of hesitation. So I'm asking myself, why did Forsyth say that? The dude's a pro. It was long but it wasn't much of a cut?
The only reason for missing it would be unintentional english if it's a center ball hit or misjudged deflection in your case with T.O.I. Forsyth watches a lot of matches. From his reaction it's obvious those type shots are missed often
I rarely miss such shots on my 8 footer with 4/12 inch pockets. I concede it's entirely possible I would on a 9 footer. I don't know. It's also entirely possible that if a crowd of people and T.V. cameras were brought into my basement I'd hit the ceiling with the cue ball. I don't know.
I strongly suspect what Forsyth really meant was,"Wow! I know C.J and his fellow pro's rarely miss this type of shot when they're at home or at their poolroom, but given the closeness of this match and the obvious pressure attached, I can't believe C.J. Actually put himself in position to take that long a shot." Am I correct?
IIRC, it was Billy Icardona that was commenting on that shot...he seemed amazed by a lot in that game, as I think everyone was!:wink: