Handicap Mentality - What's my spot ? What are you giving me ?

ChicagoRJ

EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
Silver Member
WOW, not again.

Without a "spot" the good players are not going to get games. And the really good players usually can outrun the "spot".... that's why they are good.
 

Petros Andrikop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You have a point, every sport needs motivation towards the top in order to remain a sport.
It has been pointed out several times that making it too easy for amauteurs may eventually leave Pool with a lot of casual players and just a few athletes..
Petros
 
Pretty sick when a guy who would need 2 games on the wire from a good shortstop going to 7 is giving up the 6 out. Here as a AA player that is what's happening. The local tournament just switched the weekly to a split field with B and down with A and up on other. Some very poor playing C players are winning it. Just cheapens the whole event. You have weak B plus players spotting the 7 8 9 to a C. Race to 7 takes almost 2 hours. Sickening really.

I wish there was a place for big boy pool. Called shot 10 ball rack your own. Maybe a game spot or two and just play. Nobody has any heart anymore.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
4 GAMES ON THE WIRE (going to 10) AND the 7/8/9 (playing 9-Ball).

I'm glad you said this. ;)

There's a tournament going on this weekend that's a big handicap tournament. I would like to play, however, my rating is a "10" - this means I have to give players that play like John B. and Lou 4 GAMES ON THE WIRE (going to 10) AND the 7/8/9 (playing 9-Ball). This is a LOT of weight on 4/8 tables alternating the break.

Don't get me wrong, I "can" do this, it's just a lot to ask for me to do it EVERY MATCH for the entire tournament......this basically means I can't make any mistakes (and break flawlessly) to have a legitimate chance of winning.

Meanwhile, the lower numbered players can win the tournament and never want to get any better.....because if they do their handicap will go up and I'll only have to give them 3 games on the wire.......brutal!!



Sorry but it sounds like a bunch of the posts I’ve read lately are talking about spoiled little kids. If they don't win right away, they never come back. Well let's just give everybody a trophy like they do with the real little kids so nobody cry's and pouts.

I really didn't even feel like posting just now, but I was getting sick to my stomach just reading some of these posts.

Where even in their wildest dreams should they think that they should beat a better more experienced player right away.
They can just maybe, get a chance to win when playing another beginner, like themselves. As it should be.
This mentality of giving so much handicap to a beginner, that they can beat someone right away, who has put in the time and effort
to get good (has paid their dues) is faulty in my opinion. I think this causes more disillusionment with and detriment to the game than some realize.
The whole beauty of the game is it's complexity and the layers of knowledge one needs to master to become proficient.

If beginners can win right away why should they go down to the Pool room and practice. For that matter how is this considered fair to the players who have already sacrificed the time, money, and effort, to become somewhat proficient at this game.

I've seen a good player come into a weekly handicap tournament and be given so low of a rating that they are winning more than a few times at
first then as soon as they raise their rating and their not winning they stop coming. Now how is this helping the tournament or the room for that matter.
It upsets the better players that know the person was rated to low and given an unfair advantage. You don't see the player that was given to much handicap coming down other days of the week to practice, why should they already are winning. Where is their incentive? For that matter the players that were coming down to practice get disgruntled and don't show up as much either. Now how does that help the tournament, the room, or promote the
game in a good direction, I'll answer that for you, It doesn't !!!

This whole handicap thing just has new players asking "what's my spot ? / what do I get ?" and the real answer should be
"with practice you get good". Spotting someone to victory doesn't leave them with a feeling of accomplishment or if it does it's short lived.

You are likely to not see these same people around six months from now. They have gone on down the road to find something (in their own minds) more challenging, this is a lose-lose situation in the long run.


Where as many tries to get that first taste of victory makes it very sweet and ever lasting in ones mind. This person is a customer for life !!!
A win-win situation.

I think helping a beginner is great but coddling them, is not. People appreciate the things they have to work for, or toward to achieve.

These people will have a lasting feeling of accomplishment and be around for the long haul. Just my opinion !


What are your thoughts ?
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I agree with a lot of what you are all saying, but I would like to add that just because someone isn't that good yet, and needs a spot, doesn't mean they necessarily don't want to get better...

I want to get better.

On the other hand, for me to play straight up against someone who is far superior isn't going to be much of a learning experience. Getting run over isn't motivational for anyone.

The key, of course, is to have fair spots, or none at all. Tough, I'm sure.

I do wish to point out the usual argument, in that handicapping isn't terribly different from deciding on a spot in a gambling match, if its done right.

I'll back out now and take the beating that is sure to ensue :p
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just to present the other side of the coin...

What if it was a different sport, like boxing?

How many Tuesday evenings would you get knocked down, before you decided it wasn't the best choice for you?
 
If it was like boxing the person with the most heart could win. Even with less talent. I beat lots of guys at or near pro level. It's a one player at a time game...anybody can get shut down if you runout and play lock safes.

Pool lately needs a heart transplant. When you have heart and lose to a better player you practice up. You beat other players for cash and bring it to play better players. One day you will learn how to survive and win. You don't learn anything getting the rainbow crush.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm glad you said this. ;)

There's a tournament going on this weekend that's a big handicap tournament. I would like to play, however, my rating is a "10" - this means I have to give players that play like John B. and Lou 4 GAMES ON THE WIRE (going to 10) AND the 7/8/9 (playing 9-Ball). This is a LOT of weight on 4/8 tables alternating the break.

Don't get me wrong, I "can" do this, it's just a lot to ask for me to do it EVERY MATCH for the entire tournament......this basically means I can't make any mistakes (and break flawlessly) to have a legitimate chance of winning.

Meanwhile, the lower numbered players can win the tournament and never want to get any better.....because if they do their handicap will go up and I'll only have to give them 3 games on the wire.......brutal!!

It's the alternate break that's the deal-killer for me.
It's like playing straight pool where you have to stop at 20.
 

grindz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As long as someone is going to try and get into another's pocket
They will have to do something to make it palatable.

TD
 

Buckzapper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played in a handicapped 9 ball tournament 2 years ago, booked as a Superbowl 9 Ball tournament and party. About 30 shooters entered with a $25 fee. I had to spot most of the players the 5,6,7,8 & 9 wild. A few even got the 4 as well. My first match, I had to give out the 5 through 9 in a race to 5. He won easily. I didn't stay for the loss side match.
Some months later a guy pointed him out to me and said he was the best player the room had. I told him he was a ball-banger since he needs more than half of the balls to be his money balls.
I have no respect for the whiners that can't play without the same spot you'd give a 12 year old.
If you want to play, first grow some testicles larger than raisins.
 

Banks

Banned
Something similar was brought up here. If there is a handicapped or limited tournament in the area, it gets people in. For those that want all of these open tournaments and think that's the way, buy your own bar and tables and knock yourselves out. Then when you shut the doors shortly after, you'll have time to give us the details.
 

Jeff Rosen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For over 50 years I was a casual player, only going to pool rooms with friends, co-workers, and girls that I was dating. Never learned a thing other than my father teaching me how to make a bridge at 5 or 6. Then about a year ago at 60 I joined an APA league. I got addicted and then joined another APA league, a Mega Bucks League, and a straight pool league.
While I tend to agree with the original poster, it is what it is. I am only a three in APA (I feel I'm a four but I can't change it) The handicap is there, it is what it is. I want to improve. My goal is to play in the Predator and Joss Tours. I'm trying to learn cue ball control now and sometimes I miss shots that I would have made without thinking of position.
I don't expect a spot. It's what they give me. I'm actually embarrassed about the spots, especially when I find out in the straight pool league that the handicap is 110 to 35!!! What I try to do, my goal in all my matches in APA, Mega Bucks, and Straight pool (at Raxx in West Hempstead) is to win by ACTUAL score. It happens occasionally and it's very gratifying. If I don't win in actual score it just doesn't feel like a win.
 

daphish1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm glad you said this. ;)

There's a tournament going on this weekend that's a big handicap tournament. I would like to play, however, my rating is a "10" - this means I have to give players that play like John B. and Lou 4 GAMES ON THE WIRE (going to 10) AND the 7/8/9 (playing 9-Ball). This is a LOT of weight on 4/8 tables alternating the break.

Don't get me wrong, I "can" do this, it's just a lot to ask for me to do it EVERY MATCH for the entire tournament......this basically means I can't make any mistakes (and break flawlessly) to have a legitimate chance of winning.

Meanwhile, the lower numbered players can win the tournament and never want to get any better.....because if they do their handicap will go up and I'll only have to give them 3 games on the wire.......brutal!!

but can you do this, are the races fair against the competition you are playing against?
 

Lucky_Lew66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I feel like a broken record player...lol...Handicap is supposed to make things fairer not fair, they dont give you 100% handicap in bowling or golf,they make it a closer match, not totally even, if they do that,like many have stated,whats the point of putting in time and effort to get better, and what about the guys like C J Wiley that have put in thousands of hours to get where he is at,and let some novice play him and beat him, WTH how is that fair. If the players dont have enough love of the game and heart to compete then maybe they should take up checkers or something. Really if a room owner is smart they have a tournament for both levels of players and some where they play together,so the lesser player can gage where his games at. One of the posters said how can he learn by getting his brains beat out,well its been proven you learn how to play good pool by watching good players play,and its sounds like you arent watching close enough while they are shooting. i am sure the better players would be glad to give the lesser players a few pointers on how to improve also. I play pretty fair for my area, and i always try and help lesser players improve, because someone took the time to show me. Really you dont learn the game by competing anyways you learn by getting some good pool instruction from a book or instructor and then practicing what it tells you to. There is some much material out there that wasnt when i started, if you cant learn the game,then obviously you arent trying very hard,and dont want to put in the time it takes to be proficient at the game,so why should i give you the World as a spot and get beat,if you arent willing to put in the time like i did to get where i am at in the game. Its like this whole new generation, they have no work ethic,its the age of where they want everything handed to them without having to work for it...
 

BarneyCalip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ Handicap Tournaments are Not For You

CJ Handicap Tournaments are Not For You.......
There are many Open Tournaments in this World where you can play and win.

Pool players have been Gambling for years with Spots.
Wrong spots will cost you money.
Is asking for spots in Gambling Wrong?

Handicap tournaments ARE INHERENTLY NOT FAIR, do to the Sandbaggers.
So they are not for Good Pool Players.

Handicap Tournaments are there for the room owner to bring in New Players.
Notice I didn't say Pool Players.

Pool Players never want to spend a dime in a room, all they want to do is gamble.
I can't tell you how many players have complained about paying time after Gambling
Especially when they break even...............
Yes there are exceptions.

I have noticed that Pro Pool Players are now requesting Rooms to come to Open Tournaments.
Hey, I had one Pro Player even ask for a Girl.......

Lots of Luck, BarneyCalip
 

Harold Smith

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Itsfroze, I have been saying for years just what you are saying. When I started thinking I was good enough to play for money, and that has been many years ago, you never got a spot, if you were not good enough to win you just went back and practiced more. I would go back and play them again just to see where I was in terms of getting better. You played people better than you to learn. Why should someone who has spent years becoming good spot a beginner enough for him to maybe win. Years ago if you asked for a spot in a poolhall you would get a big laugh from everyone.---Smitty
 
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Petros Andrikop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe it's good to clear a few things:
There is a difference between pro play, recreational play, gambling, hustling, challenge matches and handicap ones. Each case is unique.
There is also a difference between how a pool hall makes profit and how the sport should be played in order to maintain a sport character. The first is up to the club owners, the second is up to the pool players, the two do not have to contradict each other.
So if the players want to keep Pool as a sport too they have to be a bit more "active" about organizing the sport instead of waiting from others to do it for them.
The industry, tournament directors and club owners as well have to look into the future, the recreational part or the handicap part or the several formats that bring down the pros in favour of the weaker players may be good today but tomorrow this may not be the case.
In the end, everyone involved have to really promote what they are selling/playing etc..
Petros
 

Colonel

Living The Dream
Silver Member
I can't speak for pool league handicaps or handicapped tournaments as I've never done those things. What I have done a lot of is gambling & spots are a big part of gambling in pool, they've been around forever, at all levels of play. There is certain etiquette, to woof at someone for an hour to get them to step in the box & the second they agree to play the guy that has been woofing says "what are you giving me" is the behavior pattern of a nit.

Now on the other hand if someone is seeking a game with you because they've clocked your game when you haven't seen theirs or you have and know they are a ball or two better its not inappropriate to ask for a spot, they approached you. The bottom line, in gambling it's really not as much about how well you play, it's all about knowing how to match up. You have to be realistic of your skill set & your opponents because if you aren't, you'll get busted, ego has no place in gambling, a man has to know not only his limitations but also his opponents.
 
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