Hard maple shaftwood and growth rings per inch: what do you think?

jazznpool

jazznpool

Superior Cues--Unchalked!
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Just trying to spark discussion. Do you guys consider growth rings per inch a primary shaftwood grading factor? We know high, high ring count dowels or squares are more rare than those with relatively lower ring counts. Although I prefer a minimum of 9 -10 growth rings for appearance purposes I consider other grading factors (like straightness of grain end to end, for example) to be much more important in making good quality pool cue shafts. I'm perfectly okay with higher ring count dowels or squares but only if they are strong in other factors I value. Also, IMO, I don't think its worth it to pay a high premium for high ring count shaftwood.

Just wondering what you guys think?

Repectfully,
Martin
 
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jazznpool said:
Just trying to spark discussion. Do you guys consider growth rings per inch a primary shaftwood grading factor? We know high, high ring count dowels or squares are more rare than those with relatively lower ring counts. Although prefer a minimum of 9 -10 growth rings for appearance purposes I consider other grading factors (like straightness of grain end to end, for example) to be much more important in making good quality pool cue shafts. I'm perfectly okay with higher ring count dowels or squares but only if they are strong in other factors I value. Also, IMO, I don't think its worth it to pay a high premium for high ring count shaftwood.

Just wondering what you guys think?

Repectfully,
Martin
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I grade shafts for several different things on my cues. Ring count must be high. Straight grain is another, but with high ring count you will have a little more run out. Weight is important as well and how clean the grain is. I will give up a little in other areas to have high ring count, but not a lot.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
i'm trying to learn a little more about this game and everything that goes into it. i don't know much about wood but what exactly is runoff? and when you say clean grain i don't really get it. Do you think you can maybe post a picture to show the difference. if you don't feel like it it's cool thanks anyway
 
in order of importance.

1...straight grain ...BY FAR !

2...dark reddish grain
3...grain count. at least 3

how do you all count the grain? as a consumer, not a qmaker, i am only concerned with the final product = 3 grain count minimum from tip to joint. i don't know what that translates to as a dowel or block. if the grain count is lower, i prefer a taper
 
ny straight grain do you mean the lines or growth ringd are straight going down the shaft toward the ferrule?
 
masonh said:
ny straight grain do you mean the lines or growth ringd are straight going down the shaft toward the ferrule?
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yes. find the center grain at the joint and follow them to the center at the ferrule. if they trail off to the side,,,they're crooked.
 
Chris, What makes the high ring count shafts attractive to you? Is it the added sales value or do you believe that with everything else being equal that a 25 grain shaft will play noticably better than say, a 10 grain shaft? In your opinion, can a shaft ever have too much spine or stiffness for a given shaft diameter? How about shaft tap tone--do you feel there is any connection with potential shaft playability? Thanks,

Martin




cueman said:
I grade shafts for several different things on my cues. Ring count must be high. Straight grain is another, but with high ring count you will have a little more run out. Weight is important as well and how clean the grain is. I will give up a little in other areas to have high ring count, but not a lot.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
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So much for the discussion! Maybe a) cuemakers are fearful that future cue sales might be negatively affected by expressing an opinion or b) there's just apathy for the subject:eek:

Martin
 
jazznpool said:
So much for the discussion! Maybe a) cuemakers are fearful that future cue sales might be negatively affected by expressing an opinion or b) there's just apathy for the subject:eek:

Martin
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Or possibly c) There seems to be so many different opinions as to the most important attributes of shaft wood, that no firm conclusion will ever be decided upon.

I grade electronically first, then by growth rings, then by straightness of grain, then by coloring. Personally, I really like shaft wood to be a little darker (will not use the snow white stuff).

Most important in my mind is, what is happening as the shafts are being turned. 24 hours after they are turned, are they still holding straight? How about after one week(?) then one month? I turn one at a time over a period of ten months rather than using one of the shaft saw machines. I feel I have a better visual over what's going on with the wood this way. After 8 months,8 turns, and size at .570", if the wood is moving it goes to the trash.

Last year I trashed approximately 50%.
 
jazznpool said:
So much for the discussion! Maybe a) cuemakers are fearful that future cue sales might be negatively affected by expressing an opinion or b) there's just apathy for the subject:eek:

Martin
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or,,,all that needs to be said, has been said. my preferences stem from the feel of the hit of a particular shaft.

now, i bought an sw from tedesco, and i thought one of the shafts hit different. sure enough, the grain was not straight. i called lorie and asked if they could make another shaft, specifying why i didn't like the one. she got all defensive on me and stood behind her work, saying they run certain tests on all their shafts, and not a one leaves the shop unless it passes.

i don't know what kind of tests they conduct, but it didn't pass mine = everyone has a different criteria for what is good.

i can accept that. here's what i can't accept. i feel a qmaker who doesn't give you the best quality shaftwood, or ANY materials for that matter, is shortchanging his customers. and i think straight grain is an important factor. it is a matter of integrity.
 
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I'm new at this but I've been buying and selling cues for years and have played with every cues that come and goes through my hand.

One thing that I found consistently in good playing cues are good quality shafts. Quality to me mean that the shaft grain are straight, then I look at ring count and then I look at density of the shaft which has a lot to do with the tightness of the grain (May need a loup to examine of the horin and vert. grain structure). I think the grain density is the key to quality playing shaft woods (Ring Count and Straightness of the grain are very important because they help with keeping the shaft straight over the long run). But when it comes to playability, the tightness of the grain is a more important factors...I've play with shaft wood that had tons of runoff and with 5-8 ring count but the hit and feel of the shafts was great because of its density (Weight in at 4.4oz).

However, you'll find that the straight grain shaft with high ring count always seem to have consistently good grain density as well and alway seem to play good. You then also have high ring count and straight grain shafts that don't play as good because the grain density are pool. (3.2oz etc).

I think southwest probably have some of the best quality shaft wood out there if you look at each of their shaft carefully. They do have crappy shafts in the newer southwest...maybe its why the playability for them are not consistent anymore.

Anyway, I'll take the playability of any good quality shafts over any predators, tigerx, and ob1, etc. and they are definitely worth a lot more to me. But then again, what do I know. LOL

Ask any cuemakers and they tell u you can't have enough of good quality shaft wood as they're becoming really hard to get. Of course how the cuemaker process the blanks also have a lot to do with the quality of the shaft as well. But if you start with good wood, you'll have good shafts.

Regards,
Duc.
 
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Shaft wood

A couple of comments, first I look for good straight grain, then ring count, and finally weight or density. White color comes from vacuum drying and I don't think it makes a bit of difference in final playability. At least if it is done correctly. Some people where doing it to fast and turning the shafts mealy. I have found that ring count and density go hand in hand. My theory, and it's only a theory is that the high ring count comes from slower growth, which leads to smaller pores in the wood. Less pulp and more fiber. Pulp is where the wood stores moisture, so the less of it the better. At least that's my idea of how it all works.
If I lost 50% of my shaft wood, I would change vendors. But then again that's why people guard good suppliers so closely. I figure 25%. Use to be closer to 10%, but the quality of wood has been declining over the years.
 
cutter said:
vacuum drying ~~~Some people where doing it to fast and turning the shafts mealy.
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Agreed!! And we were still paying premium for it.

I fought the shaft wood vendor thing for too many years and finally got fed up. Buying direct from the mill and being able to hand pick my lumber puts the ball in my park. By the time I rip the 8/4 into squares and turn them to dowels, I probably have as much invested as if I were buying blanks (even considering the 50% waste), but at least I know when & where it was cut, and when it was dried. That's worth something to me.
 
i don't know if it means anything to cuemakers but be being a consumer i actually like shaft wood with some color to it. not snow white. i'm impressed to the extent that all these cuemakers go to to get good shaft wood. i hate to bring it up but how exactly are rings counted could someone post an example picture
 
poolplayer2093 said:
i hate to bring it up but how exactly are rings counted could someone post an example picture
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Go to Google Images and search using Growth Rings. Lot's of images there.

In cuemaking they're usually expressed by the number of rings across the diameter of a one inch dowel.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
Go to Google Images and search using Growth Rings. Lot's of images there.

In cuemaking they're usually expressed by the number of rings across the diameter of a one inch dowel.
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Thanks man i'll give that a try
 
When are we gonna see some bio engineered wood. How bout we get an engineer to increase the # of rings produced per year. Id pay an extra dollar for that
 
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