Has Dr Dave's example been addressed in this forum?

[Saturated Fats]

The illustration and red text below are from Dr Dave's website.

Shot “A” is about a 10° cut, shot “B” is about a 15° cut, and shot “C” is about a 20° cut. All three shots fit into the “thick cut” category of some versions of CTE. Also, the CB-to-OB distance is the same for all three shots. If the bridge length and pivot amount is the same for all three shots, a pertinent question is: What do you do differently with the alignment and/or pivot steps of CTE to pocket each of the three shots?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Ad infinitum. There's no coherent answer (except "NOT FEEL!").

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

Serious question, why would you need an aiming system for some of the most simple shots on the table? IMO Folks need to just get out and practice if a shot like this gives them any trouble.

I pray to have shots like this on the money ball, I see no point in investing time to learn an aiming system on a dead gimme. Literally, if you can't make this shot 8/10 times you need practice or to find a different pastime.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I see no point in investing time to learn an aiming system on a dead gimme. Literally, if you can't make this shot 8/10 times you need practice or to find a different pastime.

Aiming systems include all shots, not just the "hard" ones. The point of the example is not those particular shots but how the system works.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

my answer to you will not be immediately helpful..sorry
this type of question has been asked mutiple times in many ways and answered in this forum
the discussions usually degraded to a flame war between the ones answering the question and the ones who dont believe the answers that were offered
if you want answers you could do a search and you will find endless hours of material to read that answers your question.
i am not sure if the ones that can answer will want to be baited into the same arguments as before
although i cant speak for them
i am surprised that you as a member since 2007 have not had the answer explained to your satisfaction (whether you agreed or not)
by now as you have 16 years to have been following/reading the aiming section
wish i could be more helpful

 

[Bob Jewett]

Serious question, why would you need an aiming system for some of the most simple shots on the table? IMO Folks need to just get out and practice if a shot like this gives them any trouble. ...

People who are just learning the game are sometimes helped by having an "aiming framework" to organize their experiences. Other beginners don't find any use in such an organized approach.

I think even pros don't like shooting shot C in the diagram on a table with 4-and-a-touch pockets. I also think that they will probably be shooting mostly by feel rather than an explicit system. On the other hand, I knew a player -- a top local player -- who could break his hits down to 64ths and knew the cut angle for each of those.

 

[bbb]

People who are just learning the game are sometimes helped by having an "aiming framework" to organize their experiences. Other beginners don't find any use in such an organized approach.

I think even pros don't like shooting shot C in the diagram on a table with 4-and-a-touch pockets. I also think that they will probably be shooting mostly by feel rather than an explicit system. On the other hand, I knew a player -- a top local player -- who could break his hits down to 64ths and knew the cut angle for each of those.

bob
what is it about that shot among the 3 that you think would be the least favorite?
isnt the opening of the pocket available (visible space between the points from the given angle) the largest from that angle?

 

[Bob Jewett]

bob
what is it about that shot among the 3 that you think would be the least favorite?
isnt the opening of the pocket available (visible space between the points from the given angle) the largest from that angle?

Corner pockets are largest for about a 4-degree approach angle relative to the cushion. Dr. Dave has a plot of this somewhere.

Larger cuts are harder to judge for most people. Going from 10 to 20 technically doesn't make the allowed error much smaller, but the shot seems harder. (20 requires about 5% more accuracy in stick alignment than a 10 degree cut.)

 

[bbb]

Corner pockets are largest for about a 4-degree approach angle relative to the cushion. Dr. Dave has a plot of this somewhere.

Larger cuts are harder to judge for most people. Going from 10 to 20 technically doesn't make the allowed error much smaller, but the shot seems harder. (20 requires about 5% more accuracy in stick alignment than a 10 degree cut.)

Thanks for the reply bob

 

[BC21]

People who are just learning the game are sometimes helped by having an "aiming framework" to organize their experiences. Other beginners don't find any use in such an organized approach.

I think even pros don't like shooting shot C in the diagram on a table with 4-and-a-touch pockets. I also think that they will probably be shooting mostly by feel rather than an explicit system. On the other hand, I knew a player -- a top local player -- who could break his hits down to 64ths and knew the cut angle for each of those.

Yes, once a player works with 8ths and 16ths for a while, fine-tuning fractional aims/overlaps to much finer and more precise hits when needed becomes easier to judge and hit.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Corner pockets are largest for about a 4-degree approach angle relative to the cushion. Dr. Dave has a plot of this somewhere.

4 degrees? Unless I'm misunderstanding, that works out to about half a diamond off the long rail, shooting from the headstring to the corner pocket at the far end of that rail.

 

[BC21]

4 degrees? Unless I'm misunderstanding, that works out to about half a diamond off the long rail, shooting from the headstring to the corner pocket at the far end of that rail.

Yeah... on a valley barbox, or Dr. Dave's table, this works just fine - the balls have all kinds of play/slop to drop into the pocket. On a tougher table, however (even with 4.5" pockets and at least a 1" shelf), the ball has to be hit at a soft pocket speed if you hit the cushion, else it will not drop.

On a tougher table, corner pockets definitely play larger straight out from center pocket, and hitting the cushion is a good way to miss or hang the ball up.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

4 degrees? Unless I'm misunderstanding, that works out to about half a diamond off the long rail, shooting from the headstring to the corner pocket at the far end of that rail.

That's about right.

A handy rule of thumb taught by Mr. Jewett:

(For a 58" cue) pivoting at your tip, each inch the butt moves sideways = 1 degree of angle (0.988° if you're feeling anal). So with your tip at the pocket, moving your (cue's) butt 4 inches sideways = ~4 degrees.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

That's about right.

A handy rule of thumb taught by Mr. Jewett:

(For a 58" cue) pivoting at your tip, each inch the butt moves sideways = 1 degree of angle (0.988° if you're feeling anal). So with your tip at the pocket, moving your (cue's) butt 4 inches sideways = ~4 degrees.

pj
chgo

If you're feeling more anal, which is probably not good, lol, the actual number is 1.01"

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you're feeling more anal, which is probably not good, lol, the actual number is 1.01"

lol

And if you're a complete ass, approximately 1.0124" (and I want to borrow your tape measure).

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

... And if you're a complete ass, approximately 1.0124" (and I want to borrow you're tape measure).

Well, for a 58-inch cue and a 1-degree arc, the butt will end up 1.01227811781 inches from the original position. (It's hard to measure distance around an arc.)

For 30 degrees, the two bumper positions are almost exactly 30 inches apart. (30.02300923190)

 

[tomatoshooter]

Well, for a 58-inch cue and a 1-degree arc, the butt will end up 1.01227811781 inches from the original position. (It's hard to measure distance around an arc.)

For 30 degrees, the two bumper positions are almost exactly 30 inches apart. (30.02300923190)

If you forget your tape measure, put the tip of your cue at the vertex and then pivot the cue at the bumper until a line from the joint to the vertex is perpendicular to the centerline of the cue to get 30 degrees. The trigonometry has been fun, but my original question was more about why the corner pocket is largest at 4 degrees and not 45 degrees, basically a line from the foot spot to the center of the bottom corner pocket.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... but my original question was more about why the corner pocket is largest at 4 degrees and not 45 degrees, basically a line from the foot spot to the center of the bottom corner pocket.

Dr. Dave explains that on whichever page talks about pocket size. It comes down to the details of how a ball bounces around in the jaws and the fact that you can hit the rail before the pocket.

Here's something he and I discovered during some tests: From 45 degrees, shooting harder makes the corner pocket bigger.

 

[BC21]

Dr. Dave explains that on whichever page talks about pocket size. It comes down to the details of how a ball bounces around in the jaws and the fact that you can hit the rail before the pocket.

Here's something he and I discovered during some tests: From 45 degrees, shooting harder makes the corner pocket bigger.

Is this because the cushion/points compress more?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Is this because the cushion/points compress more?

Yes. If you know the smash-through shot for the side pocket points, the corners work similarly.