Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?

[VVP]

Obviously Europe is dominating RIGHT NOW, but I wouldn't be making any proclamation as to the best continent because of the covid factor. The Taiwanese are still struggling to get in gear right now, but no sensible person will write them off.

I think the biggest lesson to be learned is from the Polish players. Hard dedicated work always pay off. Are the Americans listening

 

[Taxi]

What is clear, sadly is America is in 3rd place. Lower if we used countries not regions. And that’s unlikely to change for a very long time. We just ain’t getting it done, period. And it’s not looking favorable as it’s been falling off for some time now.

Best
Fatboy

Given that the toy tables (AKA bar boxes) dominate the local American pool scene on the local and amateur levels, with few 9' table rooms available within easy travel distance even in some of our major cities, it's not surprising that the talent pool here for real pool (i.e. pool played on 9' or 10' tables) is fast evaporating. High rents and our instant gratification culture make an American pool comeback a real long shot.

 

[VVP]

I believe the USA needs to study what they are doing in Taiwan and Poland that have enabled those countries to produce such strong pool players. Is it an Academy and/or financial support? What will it take to create such conditions in the USA?
I do not mind contributing to an official organization formed to help offset the costs to dedicated players who have demonstrated that they have potential. We have seen younger players like Eric Roberts and Adrian Prasad wanting to play. Money should not prevent these players with demonstrated talent from competing.

 

[sjm]

I believe the USA needs to study what they are doing in Taiwan and Poland that have enabled those countries to produce such strong pool players. Is it an Academy and/or financial support? What will it take to create such conditions in the USA?
I do not mind contributing to an official organization formed to help offset the costs to dedicated players who have demonstrated that they have potential. We have seen younger players like Eric Roberts and Adrian Prasad wanting to play. Money should not prevent these players with demonstrated talent from competing.

Well said, VVP.

I really hate to raise this point, as it may be misinterpreted as a cheap shot at American instructors or the few teaching academies found in America. Still, it has to be asked: Are American instructors getting the job done or have they fallen behind the world in setting and teaching the best possible developmental agendas. Certain aspects of superior play are all about the stroke and basic fundamentals, but other parts of the game are about knowledge and learning how to apply that knowledge to accomplish superior shot conceptualization.

We are in an era where American pros, as a group, are weaker than their European and Asian counterparts in pattern play, defensive play, and kicking, and most of the skills in those portions of the game come down to knowledge and a theoretical comprehension of the subject matter. Are we not teaching these skills at all or just teaching them very poorly? My guess, and it's only a guess, is that we're not teaching them sufficiently.

American players are not doing much to practice the complementary skills. On about ten different occasions, I have asked an established American pro to show me how they practice their kicking. Just one of them was able to do so. Another said he played three-cushion once a week, and I liked that. All the others had no established practice routine for kicking.

For many of the skills, the instructors have to want to teach it and the players have to want to practice it. In far too many cases, that's not what's happening. Throwing financial resources at the problem won't fix things unless we are able to change this.

 

[VVP]

Well said, VVP.

I really hate to raise this point, as it may be misinterpreted as a cheap shot at American instructors or the few teaching academies found in America. Still, it has to be asked: Are American instructors getting the job done or have they fallen behind the world in setting and teaching the best possible developmental agendas. Certain aspects of superior play are all about the stroke and basic fundamentals, but other parts of the game are about knowledge and learning how to apply that knowledge to accomplish superior shot conceptualization.

We are in an era where American pros, as a group, are weaker than their European and Asian counterparts in pattern play, defensive play, and kicking, and most of the skills in those portions of the game come down to knowledge and a theoretical comprehension of the subject matter. Are we not teaching these skills at all or just teaching them very poorly? My guess, and it's only a guess, is that we're not teaching them sufficiently.

American players are not doing much to practice the complementary skills. On about ten different occasions, I have asked an established American pro to show me how they practice their kicking. Just one of them was able to do so. Another said he played three-cushion once a week, and I liked that. All the others had no established practice routine for kicking.

For many of the skills, the instructors have to want to teach it and the players have to want to practice it. In far too many cases, that's not what's happening. Throwing financial resources at the problem won't fix things unless we are able to change this.

Totally agree. Surprised to hear there are teaching academies other than Mark Wilson 's. But you are right it's all about the programs and what is being taught.

Hopefully the guys on Pool Player Podcast will be able to interview some of these instructors so we can get a better idea of their programs while giving them some exposure at the same time.

 

[891014+1]

I personally see many videos of chinese players practising; drills, exercises, how to play patterns, whatever, and they show nothing that i had never saw at some US based youtube coach... or european coach! I´m talking about chinese because they are, at the moment, growing more than europe at snooker and 8 ball, specially 8 ball.

In my personal opinion, it is not the technical part of the game (we all now how to pot a ball, any ball at any game) that makes the difference to elevate the quality. (I have my own opinion about that, as the 3/3 system, but is my opinion only).

It is how the players are incentivized to fight for the win and how to mentally deal with it that makes the effort pay off. China and Europe are working much better that side of the game, just that.

If we look at the teaching from Dr. Dave or Tor Lowery or any others, all the technic stuff is there, so why can´t the players do it? Mental side not teached anywhere, that is why. The day someone finds the correct mental path, does not mather from where is coming from, is going to win. Just take a look at the 10 ball WC, Tevez had no magic powers to reach the final, but he reached it, rigth? Does that means that sudently he is the 2nd best 10 ball player of the world? Am i making sense?

 

[sjm]

If we look at the teaching from Dr. Dave or Tor Lowery or any others, all the technic stuff is there, so why can´t the players do it? Mental side not teached anywhere, that is why. The day someone finds the correct mental path, does not mather from where is coming from, is going to win. Just take a look at the 10 ball WC, Tevez had no magic powers to reach the final, but he reached it, rigth? Does that means that sudently he is the 2nd best 10 ball player of the world? Am i making sense?

I strongly disagree. A lot of the technical stuff isn't out there.

Yes, Dave and Tor's stuff is great, but find me something that tells you, when designing a given kick shot, how to determine a) whether or not to use English, b) what speed to use, c) which of the available kicks offers the best defensive prospects, d) when to use follow or draw to make the ball bigger, e) when to use reduced or added speed to make the ball bigger, f) when to play for separation alone and when to go for more, and g) when it's worth the gamble to play for the kick in. Kicking is an art as much as it is a science. It is the Filipinos, more than anybody else, that have gained by developing and applying the art of kicking, and that's one of the reasons why most of the great kickers our game has ever seen were Filipino.

I guess it can be argued that the artistry part is non-technical, but my point is that are many parts of the game that I've never seen addressed in video or text in my forty-five years around the game.

Finally, wanting it badly enough won't add these pieces to one's game. It requires top notch instruction and an immense amount of study of the play of the very best kickers.

 

[891014+1]

I strongly disagree. A lot of the technical stuff isn't out there.

Yes, Dave and Tor's stuff is great, but find me something that tells you, when designing a given kick shot, how to determine a) whether or not to use English, b) what speed to use, c) which of the available kicks offers the best defensive prospects, d) when to use follow or draw to make the ball bigger, e) when to use reduced or added speed to make the ball bigger, f) when to play for separation alone and when to go for more, and g) when it's worth the gamble to play for the kick in. Kicking is an art as much as it is a science. It is the Filipinos, more than anybody else, that have gained by developing and applying the art of kicking, and that's one of the reasons why most of the great kickers our game has ever seen were Filipino.

I guess it can be argued that the artistry part is non-technical, but my point is that are many parts of the game that I've never seen addressed in video or text in my forty-five years around the game

I agree with you on the fact that not everything possible and maybe some "basic" is not available, specially without hard practise.
The question is, after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of all that, some young kid comes up and beat the hell out of us in a row, how? Why? Or even a better question, if coaches are as good as they teach, why are they usualy smashed when they enter a tournament?

 

[sjm]

I agree with you on the fact that not everything possible and maybe some "basic" is not available, specially without hard practise.
The question is, after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of all that, some young kid comes up and beat the hell out of us in a row, how? Why? Or even a better question, if coaches are as good as they teach, why are they usualy smashed when they enter a tournament?

Great post.

Watching the newbies make a statement against the established veterans is one of the joys of being a pool fan. There's always one of them waiting in the wings. Mizerak used to refer to such players as "too young to know about pressure" but sometimes even the newbies are more experienced than we think. Jean Balukas was quite a player by the age of five, so by the time she was winning every WPA title in sight, she was no newbie. Josh Filler ran about 290 at straight pool when he was about 14, so the Filler we see today is a tested, experienced veteran.

Point well taken that some of those in the instruction profession need to clean up their acts.

 

[kling&allen]

I strongly disagree. A lot of the technical stuff isn't out there.

Yes, Dave and Tor's stuff is great, but find me something that tells you, when designing a given kick shot, how to determine a) whether or not to use English, b) what speed to use, c) which of the available kicks offers the best defensive prospects, d) when to use follow or draw to make the ball bigger, e) when to use reduced or added speed to make the ball bigger, f) when to play for separation alone and when to go for more, and g) when it's worth the gamble to play for the kick in. Kicking is an art as much as it is a science. It is the Filipinos, more than anybody else, that have gained by developing and applying the art of kicking, and that's one of the reasons why most of the great kickers our game has ever seen were Filipino.

I guess it can be argued that the artistry part is non-technical, but my point is that are many parts of the game that I've never seen addressed in video or text in my forty-five years around the game.

Finally, wanting it badly enough won't add these pieces to one's game. It requires top notch instruction and an immense amount of study of the play of the very best kickers.

It seems like the young and talented Europeans are exposed to high-level (world class) play at an early age. In the US, this doesn't seem to be the case. I can't help but wonder if our bar culture plays a big role in this. Unless his or her father runs a pool room or has close ties to the sport, it's going to be really hard for an American 12-year old to play a lot of pool against really good people because no one is going to get let their kid hang out at a bar all day. In Europe, that same 12-year old could hang out a pool club which doesn't carry the same social stigma.

 

[sjm]

It seems like the young and talented Europeans are exposed to high-level (world class) play at an early age. In the US, this doesn't seem to be the case. I can't help but wonder if our bar culture plays a big role in this. Unless his or her father runs a pool room or has close ties to the sport, it's going to be really hard for an American 12-year old to play a lot of pool against really good people because no one is going to get let their kid hang out at a bar all day. In Europe, that same 12-year old could hang out a pool club which doesn't carry the same social stigma.

Yes, this is likely a contributing factor. I'm just not knowledgeable enough to say how big a factor it is.

 

[spartan]

Yes.
Europe is producing endless pipeline of talent with their programs, academies, excellent Eurotour.
Philippines still has countless young talents but they don’t get opportunities or funding to compete on international events – money games is their training so they are better conditioned to play money games than tournaments. Maybe that explains why Filipinos have had less success in winning major international events. Biado is the most successful in recent years. It’s like the best footballing nation Brazil. They say there are many Neymars on the streets, slums. But most don’t get opportunity or don’t get discovered by scouts or are not conditioned to play continental European football.
Taiwan pipeline is drying up young kids playing other sports like pro gaming, darts. Their juniors were dominant in World Junior Championships before but not any more. After Ko Ping Chung, there has not been strong junior player for some time.
China talent pool is big. But money in is snooker, Chinese 8 ball so the top talents play snooker, rest play Chinese 8 ball and some 9 ball. And those who used to play 9 ball (like Chu Bingjie, Wu) also play Chinese 8 ball now cos there are countless tournaments, prizemoney
USA has pipeline but they play baby tables.
If there is 100 player team pool event, then only Europe, Philippines and USA can put up teams of 100 players and Europe would be favorite over Philippines, USA. The other countries don’t have the numbers.
Europe just has better structured system, training, support, conditioning to win tournaments. Europe will not be dominant when Asia is back this year or next but after 5 years when top players from Asia retire, Europe will rule the pool universe.

 

[Fatboy]

Given that the toy tables (AKA bar boxes) dominate the local American pool scene on the local and amateur levels, with few 9' table rooms available within easy travel distance even in some of our major cities, it's not surprising that the talent pool here for real pool (i.e. pool played on 9' or 10' tables) is fast evaporating. High rents and our instant gratification culture make an American pool comeback a real long shot.

I agree, the biz model of a big table room just doesn’t work in most markets. That coupled with the added competition for peoples time playing video games, poker etc has done tremendous damage to pool. And the lack of widespread youth programs. All adds up to what’s happening, we are losing. We have too few players to harvest the talent from and no way to cultivate it once harvested.

best
fatboy

 

[Fatboy]

Immonen is a New Yorker

He is now

 

[ideologist]

He is now

Has been for 2 decades I believe?

 

[Fatboy]

I think people from american continent do not know much about europe´s billiard scene...

We play all table sizes and many different pool disciplines. If all the top players from all those disciplines dedicate themselves only to 9 ball or 10 ball on 9ft tables, fargo ratings would have 50 europeans to one from any other region.

What we see, now, is more and more players going out from local competitions to play and dedicate themselves to 9ft rotation games, that is the only difference to the past. And we have some legendary players who, sadly just don´t care about 9ball or 10ball...

You are absolutely correct

I spend lots of time in Europe, most Americans don’t understand Europe. I’m not here to give lessons on that topic, just confirming that you are correct.

Fatboy will be in Europe in 3 weeks for a month, then July and August as well

 

[Fatboy]

Has been for 2 decades I believe?

I can call and ask…..

 

[sjm]

I can call and ask…..

Mika moved to NY in the late 1990's and he's been here for close to 25 years.

 

[gerard soriano]

Thanks for your kind words.

Saying Stu has no credibility is like saying, They where mostly peaceful protest WTF

 

[telinoz]

Based on results, sure, Euro players are the best right now.

Asia will be winning plenty more, huge depth of talent.

USA, not so much. Where I currently live, we would kill for so many poolhalls, decent tables im bars et
The USA has that in spades, huge pool leagues with hundreds of thousands of players.
But, where is the development program, funding, to move it into a more prominent position in sports?
Just isn't there.
Huge potential, wasted.