Has the Parade Passed By

[Table Titan Streams]

The ability for players to fast-track is at an all time high. What took many of us years to learn by getting our brains beat in is really unheard of thanks to Youtube and social media. And, that's not a bad thing. It's really this way in all sports, equipment is better, education is better and at our fingertips, etc etc. I find now that I am in my mid 40's after taking 20 years off it's easier to improve my game than ever thanks to everything we have to watch. And, I will also say it seems todays players are much more willing to share because the days of hustling are far behind us for the most part.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Amen to that. I just got back into pool about 6 months ago after not really playing for 20 years. I have never had back problems in my life, but after playing for an hour or two non-stop, my back hurts for hours. I'm sure it's because I get down so low on my shot, but that's how I've always done it....so now I'm just praying that it doesn't get worse!

I had a stiff back, a friend got me working out lifting weights, the clean and jerk fixed it. When you are standing normally, your lower back is concave. If you sit a lot your hamstrings tighten up and when you bend over, your pelvis stays upright forcing your back to bend. When you put much force through your lower back and it's out of alignment, that's when your shit blows up.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Time for a senior tour. By the time most pros hit 45-47 they can't hang with the kids. I think a new 50+ tour would work. Hell, Matchroom could have a sr. division at some of their bigger events.

Steve Mizerak had one for a while in the mid '90s. Maybe because the old guard couldn't expose themselves to every player and learn from them they seemed to have a different style.

These guys both play soooo smooooth. They play such natural position, it the cue ball just rolls into the next shot. Perfect speed and distance. Their routes are so well planned that there might be a half dozen shots that the average bar banger couldn't pull off if they could nail the right speed. I know there's more to it than that but there aren't many shots that seem to defy physics.

 

[DDiabolico]

These guys are also destroying players that where on top of the pool world 20 or so years ago. As much as a health nut and disciplined player as he is, guys like Thorsten are probably never going to win another major tournament again. Same with Mika and Neils.

You're probably right about Thorsten. He still plays a lot of tournaments but he rarely finishes high. About Mika... At one point I thought he had given up pool altogether and became a lifestyle influencer on social media. Obviously he's still at it but like Thorsten, high finishes are rare. Niels would probably be at the top if it wasn't for Covid. SInce the start of the pandemic he developed a pretty successful YouTube channel and even offers online courses. I assume he avoids longer trips because of his family. Covid's still going strong in a lot of countries and maybe he just doesn't want to risk not being able to come home from some of those trips. By the way, he said that he is attending some of the big tournaments that are coming up, so we'll see.

Lest we forget. all three of them still have sponsorships with big brands and are probably obliged to attend a certain number of events. Maybe they wouldn't have those sponsorships anymore if it wasn't for their past achievements and their personalities.

 

[evergruven]

Same thing with Tennis. I think today's women could compete with the top men from the 60s and 70s. It's a entirely different game now.

cheers, agree with this in the sense that today's players have so many more options re: knowledge, mental and physical training, equipment, etc.
...but as was mentioned above, give the champs of yesteryear the same resources that exist today for players, and I'd venture they'd still be champs

as an aside, I know it's real, but the idea of this thread is wild to me..
I mean that to say, to think that joe/jane off the block, talented as they are, could step up and hang with a world champ in pool is amazing
I'll have to think about it more, but I imagine there aren't many athletic endeavors where that's the case..of course pool isn't tennis, but still..pretty cool

 

[alstl]

oh, I've knocked off a champ or two, but now the current crop is almost impossible to get passed

Lou Figueroa

Thorpe is Mosconi Cup level. Several no names finished higher than Thorpe at DCC 9 ball. Winning the event is nearly impossible but knocking off a high level player in 9 ball is very possible.

Long race in 14.1 - that's nearly impossible.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Age is experience, sometime experience is not advantage.

 

[Grimper]

McEnroe was comparing Serena to today's men. Not the men that played in the 60s and 70s. I'm tellen' ya, if Serena played (with her modern racket) on the men's tour in the 60's, she would be ranked #1.

As someone who's played and followed tennis for 50 years, I can tell you this just isn't so. You think she could beat the John McEnroe of 1975?
He'd eat her alive.

 

[fjk]

As someone who's played and followed tennis for 50 years, I can tell you this just isn't so. You think she could beat the John McEnroe of 1975?
He'd eat her alive.

I said the 60s.

Here's the top 10 from the 60s. Go watch some YouTube videos of their games and then tell me Serena (in her prime, with a modern racket) couldn't dominate them. Her serve is faster, groundstrokes harder, she's fitter / moves better, and she has a more multidimensional / sophisticated game than the men of the 1960s. There's gotta be some nerd that could generate a computer simulation for us to watch.

1	Roy Emerson
2	Rod Laver
3	Manuel Santana
4	Fred Stolle
5	John Newcombe
6	Neale Fraser
7	Ken Rosewall
8	Tony Roche
9	Arthur Ashe
10	Nicola Pietrangeli

As someone who's played and followed tennis for 50 years, I can tell you this just isn't so. You think she could beat the John McEnroe of 1975?
He'd eat her alive.

 

[fjk]

As someone who's played and followed tennis for 50 years, I can tell you this just isn't so. You think she could beat the John McEnroe of 1975?
He'd eat her alive.

I do agree she wouldn't fare well in the 70s. Today, even a Serena in her prime, couldn't compete with men...even at the college level.

In the 60s though, with her modern racket, she would just bomb those guys off the court. They would have never seen the pace she puts on every ball from anywhere on the court.

 

[fjk]

Age is experience, sometime experience is not advantage.

When I was a teen, an old-timer from my poolroom used to always tell me "the fact that you don't understand how much could go wrong with your shot selection is a tremendous advantage to you". I think he was trying to say I was free stroking out of ignorance.

 

[bbb]

I said the 60s.

Here's the top 10 from the 60s. Go watch some YouTube videos of their games and then tell me Serena (in her prime, with a modern racket) couldn't dominate them. Her serve is faster, groundstrokes harder, she's fitter / moves better, and she has a more multidimensional / sophisticated game than the men of the 1960s. There's gotta be some nerd that could generate a computer simulation for us to watch.

1	Roy Emerson
2	Rod Laver
3	Manuel Santana
4	Fred Stolle
5	John Newcombe
6	Neale Fraser
7	Ken Rosewall
8	Tony Roche
9	Arthur Ashe
10	Nicola Pietrangeli

letting serena use her modern racquet is like allowing someone to bring their machine gun to fist fight
its not a fair comparison

 

[fjk]

letting serena use her modern racquet is like allowing someone to bring their machine gun to fist fight
its not a fair comparison

Agreed. The conversation started though by comparing players from different eras. Today's pool players greatly benefit from sophisticated instructional videos and vastly better equipment. In the old days, you learned how to play pool by "paying your dues". In other words, playing better players and closely watching what they do (while losing lots of games & money).

 

[MitchAlsup]

Me, I blame Efren for raising the bar as high as it currently is.
Everyone playing against him had to seriously raise their games.

 

[Toxictom]

Same thing with Tennis. I think today's women could compete with the top men from the 60s and 70s. It's a entirely different game now.

I thought Billy Jean King settled that in the 70's.

 

[sammylane12]

I think, a decade or two ago, I always felt I had a chance against the big dogs when playing my best shortstop quality game -- maybe not to win but to be semi-competitive and win a couple of games.

But now, the ball striking by so many of the players has become so good I wonder if your slightly better than average guy has any chance whatsoever against many of the guys out there nowadays. I recall an Accu-Stats tape (yes, tape) during which Danny Dilberto laments: in the old days the young guys would dog it against a better player. They don't dog it anymore.

Lou Figueroa

I know what you mean about the inevitable slide into the category "he used to be good".. Danny has a point about the dog in players, there is a lot less than it used to be. Nobody ever chokes against me now, they all turn into Jonny Archer.

 

[measureman]

Steve Mizerak had one for a while in the mid '90s. Maybe because the old guard couldn't expose themselves to every player and learn from them they seemed to have a different style.

These guys both play soooo smooooth. They play such natural position, it the cue ball just rolls into the next shot. Perfect speed and distance. Their routes are so well planned that there might be a half dozen shots that the average bar banger couldn't pull off if they could nail the right speed. I know there's more to it than that but there aren't many shots that seem to defy physics.

Incredible that a player of Toby Sweet's caliber missed that easy 7 ball on the hill.
He didn't have to do anything but bounce off the rail for the 8.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Today's top players are straighter shooters for sure but...

We are now comparing International fields versus primarily US fields of the past. Russ sort of points out what a more localized pool world looks like, and that's no slight to Germany as they have a lot of great players.

One benefit of a healthier professional scene, would be -- the world's best players wouldn't have to travel the world to compete for a 10-20 thousand dollar first prize. Then maybe there would be more opportunities for US players to rise through the ranks. What are they really to do now? How long can someone like Tyler Styer stick with pool, when he has to compete with +800 rated players just to win a paycheck large enough to feed himself? Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the world's greatest players stateside, it's just there's not much left for the up and comers. The smart ones end up sticking in the amateur ranks and give up their big dreams.

Yeah, no worries. For reference, the better Oberliga players are generally in the 650+ Fargorate range, and I realize they are not really comparable to competing against international monsters. We have a few 700s sprinkled in amongst just the Hessen state players. A few 750-ish players pop up from time to time to fill in for missing players. And depending on what game comes up in your league matches, there are a few specialists.. Heck, I had a Verbandsliga player (one level down from the highest amateur level..) run 80 and out on me in straight pool in his home hall in a league match.

I was just making the observation that, given my Fargorate of 580 is almost completely based off of barbox tournaments and BCA league in Colorado, and given my results against established players in my area, I am fairly happy with my game for the amount of effort I put into it. Players I have beat in longer races are in the 650+ range.

Still, it's REALLY frustrating that Mike Page is not answering either my emails or Facebook messages, re: trying to import German league results into Fargorate. I actually spent a weekend building a python script that will pull data directly off of the German league results for Hessen, and format them in the format Mike originally asked for, and I can give him a single spreadsheet with all the results for an entire year, all players, all league levels. And simply no response as to whether he will accept it or not. My only other option to get my Fargorate adjusted is to go play a Eurotour event, as Derby still hasn't gotten their shit together as far exporting full match scores to Fargorate, which is the only tournament I play stateside every year, and it takes a few thousand dollars between flights, hotel, entry fees, food, etc.

 

[book collector]

I thought Billy Jean King settled that in the 70's.

I will always believe Bobby Riggs dumped that match.

 

[Dave714]

Incredible that a player of Toby Sweet's caliber missed that easy 7 ball on the hill.
He didn't have to do anything but bounce off the rail for the 8.

I would have liked seeing Toby play more as I was coming up. In my opinion he his highly underrated.