Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

I'm not even going to go into "hit", or the mystique of "hit". I'm just discussing construction methods, and the end quality of what is coming off the line at the Poison/Predator/Lucasi/Players brands.

I understand the "need" some players have for custom cues. When people are asking about buying a cue on here, typically they are pointed in the direction of buying a "custom cue", as it will be higher quality than a production cue. Meanwhile, we're talking about a guy that has maybe one or two lathes, and perhaps a mill. And he's made maybe 100 cues in the past 4 years. Put that up against a company that has a repeatable process, starting with a laminated core that is thrown on a CNC lathe and cut to within a few thousands of an inch, just like the other 99 cores before it. It goes through 15 other CNC controlled machine processes. A human hand barely touches the cue. Or, we have a cue coming from a garage, and joint sizes can vary by a few hundreds due to hand sanding. We get "taper roll" on a shaft that was done by hand, vs the computer controlled machine that spits out more than 1000 shafts a week. I don't know how the two can even be compared, in terms of precision.

Sorry, but this post demonstrates an alarming lack of knowledge of how high end makers make cues

My first half of my pool playing, I owned / used only what you might call mass-produced cues: McDermott, Huebler, Joss, Meucci - and all cues were very good cues.
Then I got a JossWest cue - holy cow what a difference! Best playing / hitting cue by far I had ever had.
Then I quit playing for about 12 years and got rid of the JossWest
All I have bought since are "Custom" cues and have experienced higher quality in every department, and for the most part better bang for the buck.

Yes, there are for sure numerous "production" cue makers that achieve a very high level of quality in all departments, but if you think they are as high quality as the top 30 or 40 "custom" cuemakers, you are wrong.
 
Sorry, but this post demonstrates an alarming lack of knowledge of how high end makers make cues

My first half of my pool playing, I owned / used only what you might call mass-produced cues: McDermott, Huebler, Joss, Meucci - and all cues were very good cues.
Then I got a JossWest cue - holy cow what a difference! Best playing / hitting cue by far I had ever had.
Then I quit playing for about 12 years and got rid of the JossWest
All I have bought since are "Custom" cues and have experienced higher quality in every department, and for the most part better bang for the buck.

Yes, there are for sure numerous "production" cue makers that achieve a very high level of quality in all departments, but if you think they are as high quality as the top 30 or 40 "custom" cuemakers, you are wrong.

Massive eye roll.

Mezz is on par, or better, than any custom guy on the planet. Any.
 
Sorry, but this post demonstrates an alarming lack of knowledge of how high end makers make cues

My first half of my pool playing, I owned / used only what you might call mass-produced cues: McDermott, Huebler, Joss, Meucci - and all cues were very good cues.
Then I got a JossWest cue - holy cow what a difference! Best playing / hitting cue by far I had ever had.
Then I quit playing for about 12 years and got rid of the JossWest
All I have bought since are "Custom" cues and have experienced higher quality in every department, and for the most part better bang for the buck.

Yes, there are for sure numerous "production" cue makers that achieve a very high level of quality in all departments, but if you think they are as high quality as the top 30 or 40 "custom" cuemakers, you are wrong.

In what way? You didn't describe any difference other than "better bang for buck" and "higher quality" or "best hitting" which is pretty subjective.
 
Having recently took some time off from pool, and getting back into it, I ended up having to look at my cue inventory, and started horsing around with different manufacturers and custom cues. Perhaps, 10-20 years ago, there was a measurable gap between the custom cues, and the production cues available at the time. Now, it seems that the top quality production cues are as good as the custom cues available today.

This isn't a discussion regarding collecting cues. This is purely me observing fit and finish, quality of construction, and repeatability in the way that cues play. Predator is putting out a quality cue with CNC inlays - as good as a lot of the custom CNC guys, at a better price, with better technology.

I freely admit that my knowledge of custom cue makers, as in who are the top 5 or 6 makers and why their cues are so respected, is not what it used to be. Or even which are the top 5-6 production cue manufacturers.

However, i know something about custom guns and custom fly rod makers, as well as a little about custom sports car manufacturers, and I don't see why the basics would be any different.

For instance, when it comes to fit and finish, in car building, guns, and fly rods human craftsmanship is still able to produce a far better product in terms of fit and finish and quality of construction than any machine. And in all three the custom product performs better as well.

One example in terms of fit and finish: Ferrari employs a man in the painting department who's job it is to apply each coat of paint by hand then inspect each coat after it dries by hand. What I mean by that is after every coat dries, he actually runs his hands over the entire surface of the car and can feel differences in the thickness of the paint down to 1/10,000th of an inch. No machine is capable of registering such a difference. He marks every high spot and then carefully buffs down those areas before applying the next coat. This produces a paint job on a Ferrari that can't be reproduced by any computer-driven painting machine.

Another example in the gun world: it's widely understood that the finest weapons made are double barreled rifles, typically used for safaris in Africa. These weapons are hand-made to exacting specifications, usually for the individual customer so that the weight, balance, length of pull, comb height, etc. are specifically tailored to the hunter that bought it. No machine can do this. And no big game hunter that buys such a weapon would want a machine-made rifle, because it takes a human craftsman to ensure every part works exactly as it should, that every sear, limb, spring, etc., is not only the right size and dimensions, but that every part is perfectly polished (similar to the Ferrari paint job) so that they work as if coated in perfectly evenly laid glass for absolute reliability. Which is what you want when a 2,000 lb. Cape buffalo is charging you from 30 feet away. These weapons start at $50,000 and can be more than $250,000. Perfection has its price . . .

Fly rods are made all over the world, with the largest makers in China and Korea. These companies rely heavily on machine manufacturing to keep costs down, and they do produce a very good product most of the time.

But the very best fly rod makers in the world are in the U.S., and the best of those still make their rods mostly or entirely by hand. Companies like Sage and Winston still employ craftsman to hand roll rod sections, apply paint and so forth, inspecting their work at every stage, to produce a rod that not only has significantly better fit and finish, but performs on the water better than any Chinese or Korean made rod.

Now a pool cue isn't a car with its thousands of moving parts, or a gun with its few dozen that have to perform under extreme pressure and violent motion. A cue isn't even similar to a fly rod, which must endure extremes in temperature, repeated dunkings in fresh or salt water for hours at a time, etc.

But a cue must perform its job, and just like guns, fly rods, and sports cars, I'll bet that the very best performing, best fit and finish, most reliably durable cues are still made by craftsmiths.
 
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I freely admit that my knowledge of custom cue makers, as in who are the top 5 or 6 makers and why their cues are so respected, is not what it used to be. Or even which are the top 5-6 production cue manufacturers.

However, i know something about custom guns and custom fly rod makers, as well as a little about custom sports car manufacturers, and I don't see why the basics would be any different.

For instance, when it comes to fit and finish, in car building, guns, and fly rods human craftsmanship is still able to produce a far better product in terms of fit and finish and quality of construction than any machine. And in all three the custom product performs better as well.

One example in terms of fit and finish: Ferrari employs a man in the painting department who's job it is to apply each coat of paint by hand then inspect each coat after it dries by hand. What I mean by that is after every coat dries, he actually runs his hands over the entire surface of the car and can feel differences in the thickness of the paint down to 1/10,000th of an inch. No machine is capable of registering such a difference. He marks every high spot and then carefully buffs down those areas before applying the next coat. This produces a paint job on a Ferrari that can't be reproduced by any computer-driven painting machine.

Another example in the gun world: it's widely understood that the finest weapons made are double barreled rifles, typically used for safaris in Africa. These weapons are hand-made to exacting specifications, usually for the individual customer so that the weight, balance, length of pull, comb height, etc. are specifically tailored to the hunter that bought it. No machine can do this. And no big game hunter that buys such a weapon would want a machine-made rifle, because it takes a human craftsman to ensure every part works exactly as it should, that every sear, limb, spring, etc., is not only the right size and dimensions, but that every part is perfectly polished (similar to the Ferrari paint job) so that they work as if coated in perfectly evenly laid glass for absolute reliability. Which is what you want when a 2,000 lb. Cape buffalo is charging you from 30 feet away. These weapons start at $50,000 and can be more than $250,000. Perfection has its price . . .

Fly rods are made all over the world, with the largest makers in China and Korea. These companies rely heavily on machine manufacturing to keep costs down, and they do produce a very good product most of the time.

But the very best fly rod makers in the world are in the U.S., and the best of those still make their rods mostly or entirely by hand. Companies like Sage and Winston still employ craftsman to hand roll rod sections, apply paint and so forth, inspecting their work at every stage, to produce a rod that not only has significantly better fit and finish, but performs on the water better than any Chinese or Korean made rod.

Now a pool cue isn't a car with its thousands of moving parts, or a gun with its few dozen that have to perform under extreme pressure and violent motion. A cue isn't even similar to a fly rod, which must endure extremes in temperature, repeated dunkings in fresh or salt water for hours at a time, etc.

But a cue must perform its job, and just like guns, fly rods, and sports cars, I'll bet that the very best performing, best fit and finish, most reliably durable cues are still made by craftsmiths.

You’re comparing apples to surfboards.
 
You’re comparing apples to surfboards.

It's possible. I said at the top that my knowledge of exactly what goes into cue-making and how cues are expected to perform is not great.

But as I also said, my point is that among the products I do have some knowledge of, craftsmen still rule over machines. And I really don't see why that would be different with cues. You're welcome to prove me wrong. Why, among all the performance products in the world should pool cues be the outlier?
 
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It's possible. I said at the top that my knowledge of exactly what goes into cue-making and how cues are expected to perform is not great.

But as I also said, my point is that among the products I do have some knowledge of, craftsmen still rule over machines. And I really don't see why that would be different with cues. You're welcome to prove me wrong.

Both the custom guys, and the “production guys” have the exact same machines in their shops, doing the exact same jobs. With the top guys, nearly everything is computer controlled. Same CNC milling and cutting machines. Same materials. None of them can do something the other guys can’t. It’s become that good at the top. A Mezz cue is built to such tight tolerances, the butts don’t even need glue during assembly. Imagine that....
 
Both the custom guys, and the “production guys” have the exact same machines in their shops, doing the exact same jobs. With the top guys, nearly everything is computer controlled. Same CNC milling and cutting machines. Same materials. None of them can do something the other guys can’t. It’s become that good at the top. A Mezz cue is built to such tight tolerances, the butts don’t even need glue during assembly. Imagine that....

And? Who cares if they all have the same machines. Ford has more technologically advanced machines and robots than Ferrari, but no one thinks Ford makes a better sports car. Or that they even can produce a better paint job.

Your point seems to be that a cue is merely an accessory; that anyone can make one and that they all perform about the same. Like a pair of shorts for a tennis player.

My experience in other fields tells me that it's unlikely that's the case. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't just about the make and model of the machines being used. It's about the human interface with that equipment as much as anything else.

Take your example of a Mezz cue. How do you know for certain what tolerances are used by any top-5 Custom cue-maker? What if someone out there is using tolerances that are even tighter? What if they found some unique way of fitting the pieces together that no machine can match for reliable integrity over decades of use?

I don't know that they have or not, but neither do you.
 
and? Who cares if they all have the same machines. Ford has more technologically advanced machines and robots than ferrari, but no one thinks ford makes a better sports car. Or that they even can produce a better paint job.

Your point seems to be that a cue is merely an accessory; that anyone can make one and that they all perform about the same. Like a pair of shorts for a tennis player.

My experience in other fields tells me that it's unlikely that's the case. The point i'm trying to make is that it isn't just about the make and model of the machines being used. It's about the human interface with that equipment as much as anything else.

Take your example of a mezz cue. How do you know for certain what tolerances are used by any top-5 custom cue-maker? What if someone out there is using tolerances that are even tighter? What if they found some unique way of fitting the pieces together that no machine can match for reliable integrity over decades of use?

I don't know that they have or not, but neither do you.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
 
And? Who cares if they all have the same machines. Ford has more technologically advanced machines and robots than Ferrari, but no one thinks Ford makes a better sports car. Or that they even can produce a better paint job.

Your point seems to be that a cue is merely an accessory; that anyone can make one and that they all perform about the same. Like a pair of shorts for a tennis player.

My experience in other fields tells me that it's unlikely that's the case. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't just about the make and model of the machines being used. It's about the human interface with that equipment as much as anything else.

Take your example of a Mezz cue. How do you know for certain what tolerances are used by any top-5 Custom cue-maker? What if someone out there is using tolerances that are even tighter? What if they found some unique way of fitting the pieces together that no machine can match for reliable integrity over decades of use?

I don't know that they have or not, but neither do you.

You are getting too far out there. I don't mean to say cue making isn't a science, but it isn't rocket science. A sneaky Pete with no collare and no weight bolt, for example. It consists of two pieces of wood spliced into a butt, a shaft, a ferrule, a tip, a joint pin, and a rubber bumper. It is all held together with glues. It consists of a half dozen components. It is turned and tapered by the maker.

Assuming, it is straight and solid, what is the difference between makers and why can't machines do the same thing, with human oversight?
 
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FWIW I think you both have a point(s). there are always some in any hobby that feel ike they have to push to the "enth" degree to be satisfied or feed ego. Relative to 'craftsmanship" totally get that too - it's the romantic notion.

But honestly - be it pool, hunting, fishing, etc. lots of us have the goal to be successful and use truly quality equipment because we understand the value. And we're serious about success.

Yet it's easy for me to draw the line on a great fitting Browning Citori for killing birds over a 2K dog I trained versus a Holland & Holland shotgun and a 5k dog.

At some point, buying quality, being damned good at your hobby and being successful (the goal) is plenty satisfying and wiser use of my money and confidence.

There's a line some people never learn how to draw for themselves.
 
You are getting too far out there. I don't mean to say cue making isn't a science, but it isn't rocket science. A sneaky Pete with no collare and no weight bolt, for example. It consists of two pieces of wood spliced into a butt, a shaft, a ferrule, a tip, a joint pin, and a rubber bumper. It is all held together with glues. It consists of a half dozen components. It is turned and tapered by the maker.

Assuming, it is straight and solid, what is the difference between makers and why can't machines do the same thing, with human oversight?

Well, it’s somewhere in the middle between you and him. It isn’t rocket science, but there are certain machinist skills a good cue guy should have, but they never learn. You’ll find the old school greats like Tim Scruggs were machinists before making cues. Hu has even mentioned he makes more money as a machinist than he did making cues.

Jim, you’re much closer to the truth than X Files has written in his post.
 
Some do a few things radically different but you're right. I had a cue maker
tell me once that no one was allowed in his shop for basically one reason only. He
said that the world of glue was where it was at. He said there were glues out there
that were so sophisticated in how they acted after they dried that it would be hard to
believe how the small differences in glues translated to cue hit. This guys cues all hit
soft and he didn't want anyone finding out what he was using. He told me before he
sold the first cue he experimented with glue for over a year and had thousands of
dollars in deciding what not to use. He said the glues he used he was certain no one
else would even suspect that he would use it because of the consistency out of the
can.



You are getting too far out there. I don't mean to say cue making isn't a science, but it isn't rocket science. A sneaky Pete with no collare and no weight bolt, for example. It consists of two pieces of wood spliced into a butt, a shaft, a ferrule, a tip, a joint pin, and a rubber bumper. It is all held together with glues. It consists of a half dozen components. It is turned and tapered by the maker.

Assuming, it is straight and solid, what is the difference between makers and why can't machines do the same thing, with human oversight?
 
Some do a few things radically different but you're right. I had a cue maker
tell me once that no one was allowed in his shop for basically one reason only. He
said that the world of glue was where it was at. He said there were glues out there
that were so sophisticated in how they acted after they dried that it would be hard to
believe how the small differences in glues translated to cue hit. This guys cues all hit
soft and he didn't want anyone finding out what he was using. He told me before he
sold the first cue he experimented with glue for over a year and had thousands of
dollars in deciding what not to use. He said the glues he used he was certain no one
else would even suspect that he would use it because of the consistency out of the
can.

Uh huh....magic glue.
 
You are getting too far out there. I don't mean to say cue making isn't a science, but it isn't rocket science. A sneaky Pete with no collare and no weight bolt, for example. It consists of two pieces of wood spliced into a butt, a shaft, a ferrule, a tip, a joint pin, and a rubber bumper. It is all held together with glues. It consists of a half dozen components. It is turned and tapered by the maker.

Assuming, it is straight and solid, what is the difference between makers and why can't machines do the same thing, with human oversight?

I agree with you.

My point is that I can't think of a single performance-oriented product that doesn't benefit from more human interaction during production rather than less human interaction. Not one. Okay, maybe performance tires. I don't know if anyone is making tires largely by hand. But I tend to doubt it.

So IMHO, human craftsman probably still have the upper hand over machines when it comes to turning out the best possible pool cues, simply because why would a pool cue be any different from anything else on Earth?

Now, understand, I'm not saying that all custom cues are better than all production cues, or even most of them. I'm simply saying that it's probable that the very best cue-makers probably consistently produce a cue better than most production cues.
 
I agree with you.

My point is that I can't think of a single performance-oriented product that doesn't benefit from more human interaction during production rather than less human interaction. Not one. Okay, maybe performance tires. I don't know if anyone is making tires largely by hand. But I tend to doubt it.

So IMHO, human craftsman probably still have the upper hand over machines when it comes to turning out the best possible pool cues, simply because why would a pool cue be any different from anything else on Earth?

Now, understand, I'm not saying that all custom cues are better than all production cues, or even most of them. I'm simply saying that it's probable that the very best cue-makers probably consistently produce a cue better than most production cues.

You DO know that production cues are made by human craftsmen, right?
 
You DO know that production cues are made by human craftsmen, right?

Of course. Just as building a Honda Civic requires human interaction or whatever. The question is what is the skill level of the human doing the work. Is that person a journeyman/apprentice level worker, or is he a master-class craftsman?
 
Of course. Just as building a Honda Civic requires human interaction or whatever. The question is what is the skill level of the human doing the work. Is that person a journeyman/apprentice level worker, or is he a master-class craftsman?

The folks at Pechauer have been building cues longer than virtually all custom cue makers. And have easily made 20 times the number of cues as all the custom builders put together. You think they might be able to build a cue?

Call Dan Janes at Joss. He loves hearing he’s a production cue maker.
 
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