Truth, I hit balls with a cue you made 40 years ago and it is fantastic. I'd say your time was and is timeless.
Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
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Truth, I hit balls with a cue you made 40 years ago and it is fantastic. I'd say your time was and is timeless.
I guess I don't see any, or a significant amount, of innovation coming from the custom makers. They stick with very traditional looking cues. I see tonnes of Szam tribute cues. Or SW style cues. "Old growth" maple. Etc.
You were working on things like radial pins. Uniloc joints. Inlaid points that were sharp. Piezoelectric fibers inside a shaft. Flexible ferrules and front end deflection reducing technology. I don't see anyone doing anything remotely close to what you were doing.
Lucasi just seems to be doing "more" with the cue, in general, in regards to applying science to wood. Looks like I'm in the vast minority, though, in my thoughts.
Thanks for the contributions, Bill. I've appreciated it.
Joey, I understand that you "doubt" that any factory has copied SW's taper. Can I ask why you doubt this?
Is it because there is something that SW does which is not technically possible for a factory to copy?
Is is because you have never seen a production cue with a SW taper?
I am just curious what you base this on?
For myself I have seen genuine SW cues side by side with knockoffs produced in Taiwan and with a pair of calipers measured the diameter every inch along the shaft as requested by the person who was showing me the cues. The measurements were exactly the same. So I don't know, as a layman, how else I could determine that the tapers were or were not the same.
I will give you one other example of the capability of Kao Kao. I was involved with a private label deal to have some carom cues made. The buyer wanted them made EXACTLY to the taper of a certain player's cue. He sent ONLY the measurements along every inch from the joint to the tip. From this data Kao Kao built carom cues which had exactly the same taper as the reference cue. In fact they wrote back amazed that it had been done.
Kao Kao cuts shafts on a cnc controlled lathe. Tapers are programmed in and can be changed in minutes. They have a collection of taper profiles from just about every major brand of cue known, either given to them or created from cues they purchased. I gave them a Tim Scruggs shaft and they already had a matching taper profile saved.
I have no agenda when I tell you that they have made cues, production cues, with the SW taper on request. It's simply a fact that exists. If there were some compelling financial reason to prove it then I suppose it could be arranged. For me it doesn't matter except that I am reporting what I know to be true. In fact I have a Fury cue that MIGHT have a SW taper shaft because at one point the head designer at Kao Kao handed me a cue and told me that it was done exactly like a SW. I didn't compare it to a real SW to verify it. But it did hit real good and I played a lot of pool for money with that cue until I got my Jensen.
Is it because there is something that SW does which is not technically possible for a factory to copy?
Is is because you have never seen a production cue with a SW taper?
I am just curious what you base this on?
For myself I have seen genuine SW cues side by side with knockoffs produced in Taiwan and with a pair of calipers measured the diameter every inch along the shaft as requested by the person who was showing me the cues. The measurements were exactly the same. So I don't know, as a layman, how else I could determine that the tapers were or were not the same.
I will give you one other example of the capability of Kao Kao. I was involved with a private label deal to have some carom cues made. The buyer wanted them made EXACTLY to the taper of a certain player's cue. He sent ONLY the measurements along every inch from the joint to the tip. From this data Kao Kao built carom cues which had exactly the same taper as the reference cue. In fact they wrote back amazed that it had been done.
Kao Kao cuts shafts on a cnc controlled lathe. Tapers are programmed in and can be changed in minutes. They have a collection of taper profiles from just about every major brand of cue known, either given to them or created from cues they purchased. I gave them a Tim Scruggs shaft and they already had a matching taper profile saved.
I have no agenda when I tell you that they have made cues, production cues, with the SW taper on request. It's simply a fact that exists. If there were some compelling financial reason to prove it then I suppose it could be arranged. For me it doesn't matter except that I am reporting what I know to be true. In fact I have a Fury cue that MIGHT have a SW taper shaft because at one point the head designer at Kao Kao handed me a cue and told me that it was done exactly like a SW. I didn't compare it to a real SW to verify it. But it did hit real good and I played a lot of pool for money with that cue until I got my Jensen.
I agree. I have gotten lambasted for daring to suggest that a factory in China could build a good cue.
But I have arranged tours for a few collectors on AZB who have been through the factory and can attest to the process and state of the art facility Kao Kao has. I would post pictures but I am bound to an NDA that prevents me from doing so.
Bill gets nothing for saying the cues are good and neither do it. Neither of us is getting paid by any company affiliated with making or marketing these cues.
I don't follow the cue trade much. For more than 30 years, I have been playing with a rather simple cue made for me by Burton Spain in the early 80s. Accordingly, can someone define or describe a SW taper and how it compares to other designs? Thanks in advance - Rick
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I'm not following the SW taper argument, either. I didn't realize that there was a special machine tapering wood at SW that cannot be mimicked. Back when Ray Schuler was making cues, you could send him a shaft, and he could make a copy of the taper, store it, and reproduce it at any time for you.
There was a guy on eBay that was selling cases and cues back in 2008. He had a bunch of SW tributes that were looking pretty good. They were made by Taican. They had the 3/8-11 brass pin. All the rings matched up. And you could request them with the pro taper, or their "SW" taper. They didn't call it a "South West taper". It was their "SW" taper. So I am going to assume they were able to make a shaft similar to SW.
It will cost them more. Lots of shafts and butts will roll funny and they will have to deal with a lot of complaints.
There isn't one Schuler cue (a custom cue) that doesn't roll funny. Compound tapers do that. I don't see all Schuler owners returning their cues.
Hu, a couple of questions. How "perfect" does a cue need to be to make a ball in the pocket exactly?
Also, when was the last time you took apart a Predator, OB, Lucasi, Schon, Shmelke production cue?
And when a "custom maker" puts the parts together, surely, not all customs do it to a perfect zero tolerance fit and finish. Just like production cues that are not perfect, clearly that are LOTS of customs cue makers that are far from it.
I got an OB sneaky pete that can make any shot someone with a $50K Black Boar can make. Of course, I'd rather have the Black Boar and put on an OB shaft
I mean, Black Boar makes playable works of arts. One of the best looking cues of all time was made my Black Boar imho, but she ain't gonna win me even one more single game at the end of the day.
Baseball players have to use a piece of wood to hit a baseball traveling upwards of 100 mph. Yet, they care about one thing.. wood type, handle thickness, barrel size, and weight. And everyone has a different preference for their hitting style. On the high end, it might cost $150 for a wood baseball bat, on the low end $20.
Yet, in pool, we need the most perfect, "balls dead accurate" instrument to sink a ball (that is not moving) from 5 feet away. I mean, unless you are opening me up to take out my gall bladder with that cue, I'm not too worried about 1/1000th of an inch.
I guess I look at the various watches. They all keep time very well, the cheap ones almost every bit as the "gold standard" watches that costs thousands of dollars. But folks really are not paying $10K for a watch to be an extra second more accurate than a $20 watch, are they ?
Yes, they like that it's precision built to the highest tolerance, and they like the looks, and they like the collectible factor, but I've yet to see someone brag that his watch keeps so much better time than the cheap production watches
And yes, I own both production and custom cues.
Compound just means multiple angles.
NOT CURVES.
So far nobody has given me a brand that definitely has duplicated SW's taper.
Btw
Some Schullers I've seen have less number of angles than a lot of other shafts.
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Hu, a couple of questions. How "perfect" does a cue need to be to make a ball in the pocket exactly?
Also, when was the last time you took apart a Predator, OB, Lucasi, Schon, Shmelke production cue?
And when a "custom maker" puts the parts together, surely, not all customs do it to a perfect zero tolerance fit and finish. Just like production cues that are not perfect, clearly that are LOTS of customs cue makers that are far from it.
I got an OB sneaky pete that can make any shot someone with a $50K Black Boar can make. Of course, I'd rather have the Black Boar and put on an OB shaft
I mean, Black Boar makes playable works of arts. One of the best looking cues of all time was made my Black Boar imho, but she ain't gonna win me even one more single game at the end of the day.
Baseball players have to use a piece of wood to hit a baseball traveling upwards of 100 mph. Yet, they care about one thing.. wood type, handle thickness, barrel size, and weight. And everyone has a different preference for their hitting style. On the high end, it might cost $150 for a wood baseball bat, on the low end $20.
Yet, in pool, we need the most perfect, "balls dead accurate" instrument to sink a ball (that is not moving) from 5 feet away. I mean, unless you are opening me up to take out my gall bladder with that cue, I'm not too worried about 1/1000th of an inch.
I guess I look at the various watches. They all keep time very well, the cheap ones almost every bit as the "gold standard" watches that costs thousands of dollars. But folks really are not paying $10K for a watch to be an extra second more accurate than a $20 watch, are they ?
Yes, they like that it's precision built to the highest tolerance, and they like the looks, and they like the collectible factor, but I've yet to see someone brag that his watch keeps so much better time than the cheap production watches
And yes, I own both production and custom cues.
Great points.
Here's one I'll throw out there. Schuler cues have always played well, and when Ray was running the show, the cues were made to a "high-ish" standard. When Ivan Lee left Schuler, the quality went down. I bought a Schuler from Greg Savoie, and we had to return it twice for warranty repair. All in a one month period. All due to fit and finish issues. I finally had to return the cue (3 times in a 6 week period) and get another cue. Jacoby recently took over making cues for Schuler. You could argue that Jacoby has reached volumes that could make them a "production cue" company - they make more sticks than Schon on a yearly basis, and offer more designs. Quality on the Schuler line skyrocketed. They actually look like a custom cue, now. And this is coming from, what could be argued as, a production cuemaker.
I think some people have a vision of a production cuemaking operation as a bunch of minimum wage flunkies that are picking their nose while they are using the lathe. Or a bunch of guys that take no pride in their work. Do you think you'll be better on a lathe by making 10 cues, or 100? Or do you think that it's a new guy working the machines every week, as they have a lot of turnover, with regards to employees?
Bill has described the plant in China. He's mentioned they are certified to ISO 9000 standards. But....according to some.....that means nothing. Ok. You know more.
Then Jose Canseco and Roberto Alomar started getting their custom made bats made here in Fullerton called Mariposa.Hu, a couple of questions. How "perfect" does a cue need to be to make a ball in the pocket exactly?
Also, when was the last time you took apart a Predator, OB, Lucasi, Schon, Shmelke production cue?
And when a "custom maker" puts the parts together, surely, not all customs do it to a perfect zero tolerance fit and finish. Just like production cues that are not perfect, clearly that are LOTS of customs cue makers that are far from it.
I got an OB sneaky pete that can make any shot someone with a $50K Black Boar can make. Of course, I'd rather have the Black Boar and put on an OB shaft
I mean, Black Boar makes playable works of arts. One of the best looking cues of all time was made my Black Boar imho, but she ain't gonna win me even one more single game at the end of the day.
Baseball players have to use a piece of wood to hit a baseball traveling upwards of 100 mph. Yet, they care about one thing.. wood type, handle thickness, barrel size, and weight. And everyone has a different preference for their hitting style. On the high end, it might cost $150 for a wood baseball bat, on the low end $20.
Yet, in pool, we need the most perfect, "balls dead accurate" instrument to sink a ball (that is not moving) from 5 feet away. I mean, unless you are opening me up to take out my gall bladder with that cue, I'm not too worried about 1/1000th of an inch.
I guess I look at the various watches. They all keep time very well, the cheap ones almost every bit as the "gold standard" watches that costs thousands of dollars. But folks really are not paying $10K for a watch to be an extra second more accurate than a $20 watch, are they ?
Yes, they like that it's precision built to the highest tolerance, and they like the looks, and they like the collectible factor, but I've yet to see someone brag that his watch keeps so much better time than the cheap production watches
And yes, I own both production and custom cues.
Schulers have a compound tapered butt section, as well
Which, of the over 30 tapers that Schuler offers, are you talking about? The straight taper? Yep, I'd agree with that. The American.....nope. The Schuler Pro? Nope. The Super X? Nope.
Schulers have a compound tapered butt section, as well
Which, of the over 30 tapers that Schuler offers, are you talking about? The straight taper? Yep, I'd agree with that. The American.....nope. The Schuler Pro? Nope. The Super X? Nope.
Tell me if the butt has curves or linear angles.
I wrote codes for my shafts when I had a cnc taperer. It was easy to change taper/angles. But, they were all linear.
Just give me a brand that has curved taper. I will check it out.
The butt, IIRC, had two linear angles.
The shafts have curves. A Schuler pro has a slight curve. The American is nicknamed the "Coke Bottle". The Super Constant is made up of a bunch of hyperbolic tapers. All curves.
Ok, thanks . My cue butt has two linear angles too. Three if you count the transition. 5 linear on the shafts.
SW has the " coke bottle" on their butts and shafts. Different animal combination.
Sorry, I have not seen them on imports. Or any production cues.
Bill,
It sucks that vision problems interrupted your cue-making and you know how much I admire your talents from prior PMs we've exchanged. Have you thought about being a mentor to a new cue-maker......pay it forward so to speak........the cue-making sector of the billiard industry would benefit.
In 1993, while spending eight months apprenticing with Burt, Joel started to develop his own philosophies behind his designs and his current construction techniques.
......Bill you have tremendous skills and creativity.
You were the 1st cue-maker to employ CNC technology on custom cues 4 decades ago; you've pushed the envelope on some cue designs & the envelope always successfully mailed, i.e., the cues were terriffic.
Wisdom........the end result of lots of knowledge and years of experience.......mistakes teach you the right thing to do.....you learned so much during your heralded cue-making career and if I were a cue-maker that was still young in terms of years in business, I know that I would advance my skills and business if I could consult with you on my cue-making activities.
Where would Joel Hercek be today if Burton hadn't coached him? He may have turned out to be a great cue-maker anyway but I don't think he'd have achieved the fame he's garnished without having been able to learn from Mr. Spain. If I were a cue-maker, I'd be dropping by to speak with you because we all can learn from one another and in cue-making, I suspect that even applies more so.
Matt B.
It sucks that vision problems interrupted your cue-making and you know how much I admire your talents from prior PMs we've exchanged. Have you thought about being a mentor to a new cue-maker......pay it forward so to speak........the cue-making sector of the billiard industry would benefit.
In 1993, while spending eight months apprenticing with Burt, Joel started to develop his own philosophies behind his designs and his current construction techniques.
......Bill you have tremendous skills and creativity.
You were the 1st cue-maker to employ CNC technology on custom cues 4 decades ago; you've pushed the envelope on some cue designs & the envelope always successfully mailed, i.e., the cues were terriffic.
Wisdom........the end result of lots of knowledge and years of experience.......mistakes teach you the right thing to do.....you learned so much during your heralded cue-making career and if I were a cue-maker that was still young in terms of years in business, I know that I would advance my skills and business if I could consult with you on my cue-making activities.
Where would Joel Hercek be today if Burton hadn't coached him? He may have turned out to be a great cue-maker anyway but I don't think he'd have achieved the fame he's garnished without having been able to learn from Mr. Spain. If I were a cue-maker, I'd be dropping by to speak with you because we all can learn from one another and in cue-making, I suspect that even applies more so.
Matt B.
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Oh, I've owned a few that had coke bottle tapers on the butts and shafts. I just don't think they were made that way, intentionally.....again, some of those late 90s and early 2000s production cues had some wonky QA.
I've played with compound tapered butts. Had a pretty long talk with Ray Schuler about them. He thought they added spine to the cue, and made them play better. I guess that could be true for 3C, as you're hitting bigger balls, harder, with more spin than pocket billiards. I could also see them being more comfortable for people with smaller hands, as the taper doesn't increase so drastically for the last 15-17" of the cue. I'm 6' tall, so I tend to be grabbing the last 6-8" of the cue, and I like the butt section to be a little thicker. That's just preference. I've had thinner back sections, like Schulers or Jacobys. Anyways, I have yet to discover, myself, any added advantage to the parabolic and hyperbolic tapers. Yes, they feel nice to the fingers. But I haven't discovered any performance advantages that one particular taper provides for ALL shots. Sure, stiffer shafts have more control, but they also throw more. There's always a tradeoff. It's a matter of personal preference.
The reason I started the thread was that I recently got my hands on a Lucasi. I was expecting it to be "OK", but not great. Boy, was I wrong. And I could grab a Predator shaft off the rack, and it fit flush. Any of them. Tried 6 different Lucasi shafts, off the rack - they all fit dead flush. I rolled the shafts - they were all straight. I grabbed a Predator - same deal, with the 314 or the Lucasi shaft. That would NEVER have happened 7 years ago. The inlays are crisp. The finish is perfect. These are traits you'd associate with custom cues - interchangeable shafts, as well as the fit and finish. Szams demand more money than a Lucasi. That will always be the case, due to collectibility, as well as legacy. But as a straight piece of wood, with some technology and playability, you will be hard pressed to make something at the level of a Lucasi Hybrid or a Predator Crown at the price they sell for.
Never mind the other subjects. I'm not going to argue them .
What Ray told you became fruitless.
You should have done your own prototype.
THEN YOU would have found out if he made sense or not.