Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

JB Cases said:
Well you're entitled to your opinion. I know who worked on Earl's cues and he had cuetec shafts. Varney didn't work on Earl's cues. Varney also made statements about Allison's cues that were not correct.

As I said hit is subjective. Even players who were sponsored could not tell which cue was theirs.

But yes, I agree, any Stroud probably hits better than any Lucasi. But then again maybe not IF Taican did what Bill told them to do.

That's kind of the point here.

You have this idea that a cue holds a person back and they overcome the cue's deficiency to win. I don't agree. I think that while a cue can be made to a higher level per se it doesn't mean that it actually PERFORMS better. It might feel better to one person and not feel better to the next person.

The point is that import cues NOW are made well enough to hold up and provide the level of performance that pros can use to win championships. That's the bottom line.

I happen to have a little insight having dealt with Kelly Fisher for years when I lived in China. She would come to the Kao Kao factory and be asked to test out many variations. As Bill said they have to depend on others to tell them when a cue hit good. And they did ask many good players to do the same thing, always refining the cues to satisfy the professional's tastes. Varner, Sigel, Kelly, Mizerak, and many others came through their doors to have cues made.

And they also have been making some of Predator's cues for several years now.

They can make just about any shaft taper known. They have seasoned wood, they have treated wood, they have laminated wood. They can do any inlays, any rings, any wraps, any cores, any type of construction method known they can do it.

The point being that the make cues good enough to win championships with. Not cues that players have to fight with but instead cues that players feel comfortable with. I have seen this evolution first hand for 20 years and especially since 2001. I got to China in 2006 and by 2008 Kao Kao had spent 3 million dollars overhauling their factory to be just about what Bill described above.

I know that there is a general disdain for production cues and especially for cues made "overseas" (china). But facts are facts, the quality is all grown up when it comes to cues from China now, especially when those cues are from the top factories.
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When pros weren't getting paid to use someone's cue, what did they play with ?
How many begged Bill, Tad, Ernie or Gus for cues ? SW ?

There are how many SW knock-offs out there from Asia ? Yet, none of them have copied SW's taper . They're all straight taper . Certainly, they could replicate SW's taper . But, they haven't . Hell, I dare them use Imron finish. That is the hardest finish I can think of. A lot harder than UV or powder coat.

PS
Those pros came to have their private label cues made . I THINK.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Priceless. You think I actually made cues because I wanted to become a cuemaker. That's so cute :)

I made a few cues as a challenge to myself to see what it was like.

Unlike you, who seems to have built up an online identity, and bets his mortgage....on the fickle needs of the cue buying public. I work in an industry that guarantees my paycheck, and I can pay for a house, and put my kids through school. I'll gladly take the recognition I receive in the form of weekly cheques, benefits and commissions instead of being praised like Kevin Varney. Eddie Wheat is internationally known in the cuemaking world. Seems like the "good and honourable" cuemakers are the exception, not the norm.

So, I'm ok where I'm at, thanks. I'll leave the revolutionizing of the custom cue market to you. One question - between your 100 posts per day, when do you actually make a cue? Just wondering.
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Does sound like someone who failed and has an ax to grind with those who continue. Every post I read from you, about custom cues, smells of jealousy.

Larry
 
JoeyInCali said:
Actually, you're the twat. You got some points from who wanted to participate. You then turn to the usual ahole that you are. Tree hugging and justifying their existence ?
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Joey, He's saying 2 guys, us, successful in the cue industry for more than 50 years combined and WE'RE the twats... This was the point of my first post.
 
Cues

63Kcode said:
The question wasn't which was better, but if the quality gap was closing.

Yes, I would have to say the gap is closeing The average production cues have grown in quality. With all the new custom cue makers, I would have to say the AVERAGE custom cue quality has decreased. The few top tier makers are still making great cues. It's just that the words "custom cue" have become deluted.

IMHO

Larry
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Hi Larry
I have played with one of your cues and to be honest I would never compare any Production cue to one of your"s..

Would You ?
 
This was a interesting, however controversial topic to post and as I pointed out last evening, it's a frikin' no win here like aiming systems haha.

Thanks to DJ for taking the time to do his best to sort it out, offer good insight and keep the post on track. Wonder if he will wonder back. Doubt it.

Do yourself a favor and go make yourselves a sandwich gentlemen before you drag this like others into the AZ pond of no return.

Have a good day,

-Kat,
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I can find at least 10 SW knockoffs by US "custom" cuemakers that aren't SW. What's your point?

Coker, Stacey, Olney....want me to keep going?
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Keep going .
The Asian knock-off look exactly like SW. They have their points and inlays on decals . Yet, they have not copied SW's taper .
Tell us Shawn, because you're the expert . They have the CNC that holds tolerances in the thousandths like you said. Why not ?
Do they hit like SW too ?
 
63Kcode said:
Does sound like someone who failed and has an ax to grind with those who continue. Every post I read from you, about custom cues, smells of jealousy.

Larry
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Jealousy? Please.

Please find one disparaging remark about custom cuemakers that I have posted. There isn't one. If that's the path one wants to choose to make their living, it's all theirs.

I figured out a few years ago that the arrow doesn't make you a better archer. And, despite the fact that there are some beautiful cues out there, it doesn't make them play any better than any other cue.

I never became a "cue maker". I'd have a guy that would come along and ask me to make a cue for him. I'd usually ask him why he wanted a cue from me, and he'd say "because it plays better than a production cue". I sold cues for McDermott at the time, and 85% of the time, I would steer the guy in the direction of a McDermott, because around these parts, people want a cue in a month, that looks pretty, and they want to spend about $300.

Did I ever "try" to become a cuemaker? Nope. I had a lathe for doing repairs. I still fix cues, here and there, but don't really do a lot of work on them anymore, mostly due to lack of interest. Pool took a back seat once I had kids. I also like to work on motorcycles, and ride them when I have time.

It was never a failed venture, because it was never a "venture" in the first place.

Larry, I respect you as a cuemaker, but your opinion is WAY off regarding me.
 
Dockter said:
Not knocking, I'm actually curious..

What would one look for through an X-Ray or cutting down a cue to determine if it's better?

Just to keep the thread on topic- I think anyone can play with anything as long as they like the feel and can get comfortable with it. My reason for wanting a custom eventually is so I don't have 3 other people walk into the room with the same thing I'm shooting with. For me it boils down to vanity. :)
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Could one of you guys answer this before it gets lost in the flame war. :) Would you only be looking at the density of the wood or is there other things you in the know could tell through cutting or X-Raying a cue? I find cue making interesting and honestly thing some are pieces of art. I would just search here but I suck at using the search function here.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Keep going .
The Asian knock-off look exactly like SW. They have their points and inlays on decals . Yet, they have not copied SW's taper .
Tell us Shawn, because you're the expert . They have the CNC that holds tolerances in the thousandths like you said. Why not ?
Do they hit like SW too ?
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No clue. My Josey hit like a Southwest. So does my Barnhart. Again, your point?

I didn't realize that SW had patented the 6 point hi/lo cue. Silly me.

Oh, one note. The Barnhart taper is EXACTLY the same as a SW.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Or you can keep drinking the kool-aid, and believe that a guy with 5 years experience makes a cue (he's made 30 cues...but he's an expert!) as well or better than guys who have done it for 40.....

As Dan Janes said to me, "would you rather have the guy doing the laser surgery on your eyes with 3 years experience and 100 surgeries, or the guy with 40 years experience, and 40,000 surgeries?"

Your pick. I guess once you make more than 1000 cues per year, you become stupid, and forget about quality wood. Who knew?
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Name 1 guy who ever made 1000 cues in a year, please.

As for the eye surgery? A doctor who has been practicing for 40yrs is going to be at least 65years old...sorry, I'm not letting any AARP member cut anything on my body.
 
63Kcode said:
I find this comment "disparaging", rude and uncalled for.

Any other questions?

Larry
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Every other week, we're hearing stories of cuemakers that vanish into the wind. The list is long, and grows longer. I'm sorry if that comment offended you, but it was directed at a pile of cuemakers that have taken people's money, held it hostage, and either not shipped a cue, or finally sent the cues back after waiting years.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
Name 1 guy who ever made 1000 cues in a year, please.

As for the eye surgery? A doctor who has been practicing for 40yrs is going to be at least 65years old...sorry, I'm not letting any AARP member cut anything on my body.
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Jerry Pechauer. Richard Helmstetter. Jim McDermott. Gordon Hart. Dan Janes.

Want me to keep going?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Keep going .
The Asian knock-off look exactly like SW. They have their points and inlays on decals . Yet, they have not copied SW's taper .
Tell us Shawn, because you're the expert . They have the CNC that holds tolerances in the thousandths like you said. Why not ?
Do they hit like SW too ?
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I am not taking sides between you and Shawn. I just wanted to point out that Kao Kao can and does make cues with the SW taper on request.

I won't comment on whether any of the cues that they have made to SW specs hit like a SW. I don't want to get into that.

I did report though that in 2001 I found cues that were made in Taiwan that were extremely close to SW in the hit.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Does "help" from someone else during the process take away from the authenticity of a cue?
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No. You said they built 1000 cues in a year when, at most, they built part of 1000 cues in a year...or simply managed people who built over 1000 cues in a year.

Seriously, they are still Ford cars, but Henry ain't built one in a long time.
 
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