Has the world gone to flipping?

In the collector car world, flippers abound. I have zero respect for them. The M.O. is that they will "suck up" to someone with a prized car...build a long term relationship if need be. Profess total love of that particular machine, how much they'd LOVE to own it, please consider them when it's time to sell, etc.

Once they get the car, it's instantly put on the market for whatever the market will bear, but definitely MORE than he paid for it. To me, he violated the trust given him by the owner who thought he was passing a prized posession on to a friend.

In other words, a con is pulled off by flippers.

Those who openly buy and sell collector items are not flippers, since they don't disguise what they are doing...those who advertise as dealers are also not flippers.

Oh, my collector car got sold to a dear and close friend in Istanbul...it will be his son's car one day. The flippers of the early Porsche community hate my guts for selling "out of the country" and for less than they would have paid. Screw 'em...the joke is on them!
 
I mean this as no disrespect, but Joss, Meucci, Schon, MeDermott are all what can be considered as production manufacturers of cues, in that they produce generally a large number of cues each year. While one can purchase directly from them, typically they are purchased from a licensed retailer of not just cues, but other billiard products as well. Examples of these retailers would be Pooldawg, Muellers, BilliardsWarehouse, etc.

Now, a Cue Dealer is typically an individual, or partnership of individuals who deal almost exclusively in custom cues, or highly collectible older production cues. Some of these dealers may offer only brand new custom cues, with which they have entered into a sales agreement with the maker. These agreements often include not only the pricing at which the dealer may purchase any given cue at, but the pricing at which they may sell at. This allows the dealer to bring to the general public a particular maker's cues that may be otherwise difficult to obtain directly from the maker due to backlog, long waiting lists, etc. It also allows the dealer the ability to make a small profit to cover overhead, marketing, and capital, while avoiding undercutting the cuemaker's direct sale pricing. Understand that not all makers are into the business end of sales and marketing, and some find it much easier to just craft the cues and let others do the business stuff for them. There are some of these same dealers who will offer to take into trade, toward purchase, other makers' customs and collectible production cues as a service to their customers...and some will not. There are also some dealers who handle mostly just used custom cues. Many of these dealers also stand behind what they sell...they're not going anywhere.

Until the advent of the internet explosion..many players/customers and makers as well, had little to no exposure beyond their particular geographic boundaries by which to offer/acquire their cues. John Wright was a bit of a pioneer in this respect. He was one of the first to gather together different makers cues, and then send out brochures of what he had available. He offered fair pricing, an amazing selection, and was dearly loved by many...and is still missed to this very day.

Now...along came the flippers. Many were individuals who managed to talk makers into making them cues or getting on their lists for cues with the sole intent of selling as soon as the cue was received, and with a typically hefty profit margin. If it was a newer maker, with a little bit of initial 'buzz' going on...these individuals would hype the hell outta these makers, while all along snatching up what they could from these makers, at a song, and then holding for a short time to drive demand, and then make a killing on the resale. The savvy of this was picking the makers whose yearly production was next to nothing...the gamble was was whether or not the maker actually had any talent, and therefore a mass appeal. The unfortunate part of this was/is that it was the flipper making all the profit, and the bad taste left in the mouthes of those makers who were duped into selling low in order to gain the exposure. It should also be noted that often flippers washed their hands of the deal once it was/is done...not all, but many. Definitely a caveat emptor.

I just wanted to make sure you had the definitions correct...as it appears your issue is with the flipper, and not the authorized retailers and dealers.

Lisa
 
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pwd72s said:
I bought my Josey from this site. Trust me, it's very much my main playing cue. It now carries "battle scars"...but those didn't hurt it's play, only it's looks.

(edit) The above wasn't quite clear. I bought the cue through the for sale section here...a notice placed by "skins". But I very much bought the cue directly from Josey...
Click to expand...

I will help clarify. :grin: Tim aka 'skins' is part of the Josey family. Typically, Keith is uber-busy making cues, and his wife, Sherri is uber-busy running the businesses (they also own a successful Tae Kwon Do school). Neither spend much time on the internet. 'skins' will often help out by posting up pics of what Keith will have available at say, the US Open or SBE...giving people a sneak preview or an opportunity to pre-purchase should they not be able to make the shows.

Lisa
 
Thanks for the clarification Lisa...I knew Tim was connected to the Josey family somehow. I meant absolutely no disrespect towards him. He gave a heads up here about the cue I bought being for sale...I'm quite glad that I bought it. Paul
 
I definitely agree Jim, most are definitely hype more than quality. Its all in the marketing of the cues. If you advertise a cue to a broad audience and long enough with all the right words and techniques, that cue can have a major design flaw and still be the best on the market. If you can afford to prestige price a cue and only sell to an elite upper class, that will automatically evoke quality. Because when somenone spends a pretty penny on something they have to justify why they did so. So they are going to hype it up to their peers that this is the best thing since sliced bread. Im not saying that the expensive cues doesn't have high quality materials and construction techniques it is just that there are custom cuemakers that has consistantly better quality materials, woods and construction techniques at a fraction of the price. What justifies a plain jane with same woods and materials basically same design priced at 475 vs 1675? The cuemakers lifestyle or demographics maybe. One reason is just the psychology of buyers. If you take the two cues and put them side by side put a high price tag on one an low on the other and do a survey on which cue is of highest quality. Probably 8 out of 10 will say the one with highest price. The influx of inferior products from a couple of countries into the american market has caused this way of thinking. So the majority of people think if its priced cheap it must be. It is definitely hard to market your skills and craftsmanship. But that is one alternative, especially if you have a product that is not unique to all the other products on the market. Predator took a shaft made it unique and stated that it would improve your game and advertised heavily; well it worked. If you dont have a product that is unique you have to market and advertise yourself & make your name well known instead of the product. You can probably tell i enjoyed marketing in college. Sorry if i got off track:grin:. Hope this helps!
Great post Lisa!
 
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Pump and Dump

This sounds so similar to a wall street pump and dump scheme!

They get the stocks for cheap or the cues in this case.

Then hype them as the next George Balabushka!!!

Then sell at the peak of the hype!!!!

When its all said and done the buyer is left holding a poorly constructed pool cue at inflated prices that they will never be able to recoup!

While the cue pimp is off sailing the southeast asian seas with a pocket full of hundreds and a line girls outside his cabin door!


But, hey thats the american way! Capitalism at its finest! oh, and good luck with the court system if you try to get recourse that way you could be tied up in court for years and by the time you get a verdict the money is long gone! Left with court fee's and a useless judgement against that POS that lives in a completely different jurisdiction outside the enforcement arm of the law.

WELCOME TO AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kid Dynomite
 
Am I a dolphin?

Yeah, I seem to pick up cues and sell them pretty quickly, but I do not have a money tree in the backyard, and have been unemployed since January, until I just got employment 4 weeks ago. So money is tight, but getting a little looser in the near future. Especially if I get my BP money!!

The new employment is going well, but doesn't give me much extra money to buy cues, after making up for the bills and debts that piled up this past 9 months without employment.

But I have an addiction to trying out all kinds of makers, and seeing what I like about cues, in order to find the one cue that would be the best fit for my game. So I cannot really keep together a collection, and constantly trade/sell cues to move on to another maker I would like to try. But most of the cues I have bought and then sold/traded I barely broke even on, if I didn't lose money on them due to shipping and fees associated with the trades/sales. But I see it as the cost to be able to try out different cue makers and their wares. To me it is fun to try out different cues, and the cost/loss is worth it to me.

But I do not believe I am promoting HYPE and pushing any cuemakers out there, just really like to try out different cues by all kinds of makers. It is my thing, and I enjoy it.

Of course, I have a really nice cue being built by the OP(JIM LEE), and it is one that I will keep, since I have truly designed it with Jim to be my signature cue, that is why I am calling it the GOTULANE cue. It will be unique, and truly MY CUE to keep.

I guess I will still continue to buy and sell cues, but hopefully I can start making a little money on them to keep supporting my habit without killing my wallet. Just check out my thread where I am currently selling all my current holdings at below the cost to me.

Yes, it is an addiction, but one I am currently happy to have. It is fun, and when it loses that quality I will stop. But I do not see that happening anytime soon. OF course the wife sees it differently, but until she has evidence to support her suspicions, I can continue my losing ways.

But to answer to the question at hand - I do believe there are some people here that are HYPING cues that they bought to sell at large profit in order to promote the cuemaker and his wares, and they might have gotten a nice discount to provide their service. But there are also the ones on those long waiting lists that when they get the highly sought after cue, they sell it immediately to make a very nice profit. It is a fact of life, and it is their right to do it, and I do not hold it against them. They got in line at the right time and will be rewarded for their time and discipline because they were in the right spot at the right time. Also, it takes demand to allow for the increased price, it takes 2 to tango, so someone must also accept to pay the higher price in order for the cue to sell. I feel sorry for the cuemaker who sells the cue, knowing the secondary market will double, triple, or quadruple the price, and the cuemaker doesn't see any of that. What the cuemaker probably sees is an increase in names being put on their list for ordered cues - so more work at the same pay.

What would happen if the cuemakers in this realm of cuemaking raised their prices with the current demand for their cues? Prices would increase or decrease depending on the current market - NO SET PRICES for customers on THE LIST! Price would be dependent of current market price. Hmmmm..... that would really make the cue buying and selling world quite different. Of course people who bought cues during a lower demand market time(therefore lower cost) would be able to profit when and if the market went up, but then it would truly be a world like the stock market for cues.
What a clever concept - the Artist gets paid for his work for current market price. Of course the cuemaker may not get as many orders for his cues, since the HYPE MACHINE is offline, but maybe it would be more enjoyable for them. I am not a cuemaker, so I cannot begin to say how they would feel, but if I spent my heart, soul, and time crafting a unique piece of work, and then sold it to only see the buyer sell it for double what I charged them within a matter of hours/days, it would really piss me off. And it would truly have me reconsidering my pricing structure. The next piece of art would certainly sell for more.

But all of this is JMHO, and therefore it is probably flawed.

Michael
 
Here is what I see...

Someone isn't happy his cues ain't moving. Well let's see, who the hell would want to start making instruments to play a game, in a game that is declining in participation, when there are 5 new instrument makers a week, who within a month are seeing the same problem you're having.

Who starts out wanting to supply a market that has an over abundance of product as it is, and not enough people using the product to begin with. An economy that isn't letting the average player own ONE decent cue let alone 4-5 cues that are worth money.

Here is a tip for you... a sponge can only hold so much water. This sponge at the moment needs a good wringing...

The fact is... all the new players are learning to play with low deflection shafts, OBI, Tiger, Predator etc.. gone are the days where every player dreamt of getting a cue from a custom cue maker and getting on his waiting list. This was a great thing when there was maybe 50-100 cuemakers. Now you have more cuemakers than pool players.

Everytime I read that someone wants to get into the cue business, I think to myself, there is a guy that I wouldn't follow through a minefield on his best day. You guys are killing me, hey get a lathe, get a mill, hell call unique products get a cnc.. sure WTF... the world needs another cuemaker like Iran needs another reactor, or TV needs another reality show.

JV
 
Maybe I'm guilty of being a 'flipper' .
I buy a lot of new cues , and resell many of them after a short time .
I do receive wholesale prices from many manufacturers & custom builders .
And I frequently sell at or near retail.
Why ?
Because , frankly , my opinion is well respected in the local billiard community , and when someone comes to me and says "how does an OB1 play compared to a pre-cat 314?" or "how do Joss cues play compared to McDermotts ?" or "are Kamui browns better than Moori mediums?" I like to be able to answer based on personal experience , and not just regurgitate some internet review .
That requires that an awful lot of cues pass through my hands .
I'd LOVE:lovies::lovies: to be able to keep them all , but that's not really feasible from a financial standpoint. So they gotta go . . . .
Remember that flavor of the week you mentioned ? Just because I really like Cherry Garcia doesn't mean I don't want to tryPhish Food!
Does this make me a flipper ? Maybe . . . .
Does it make me a bad guy ? NOOOOOOO !
 
classiccues said:
Here is what I see...

Someone isn't happy his cues ain't moving. Well let's see, who the hell would want to start making instruments to play a game, in a game that is declining in participation, when there are 5 new instrument makers a week, who within a month are seeing the same problem you're having.

Who starts out wanting to supply a market that has an over abundance of product as it is, and not enough people using the product to begin with. An economy that isn't letting the average player own ONE decent cue let alone 4-5 cues that are worth money.

Here is a tip for you... a sponge can only hold so much water. This sponge at the moment needs a good wringing...

The fact is... all the new players are learning to play with low deflection shafts, OBI, Tiger, Predator etc.. gone are the days where every player dreamt of getting a cue from a custom cue maker and getting on his waiting list. This was a great thing when there was maybe 50-100 cuemakers. Now you have more cuemakers than pool players.

Everytime I read that someone wants to get into the cue business, I think to myself, there is a guy that I wouldn't follow through a minefield on his best day. You guys are killing me, hey get a lathe, get a mill, hell call unique products get a cnc.. sure WTF... the world needs another cuemaker like Iran needs another reactor, or TV needs another reality show.

JV
Click to expand...

No argument with this logic at all.

I have a local maker and friend whose been crafting cues for about 6-7 years now, I think. He seems to be doing fine, even in this declining market. Why...he makes a great value for the money. He knows his demographic, knows what they can afford to pay on any given level of cue, and continues to get them out into the hands of players. There are actually more his cues in the hands of players now locally than likely production cues...no joke. He is also a player, and knows he can 'work' with as to payment arrangements, and who he can't...and he does.

Truth is, he loves working with wood, so he also builds shadowboxes for the local Navy base for use in the retirement presentations, also provides local engraving services, and makes some of the coolest exotic wood boxes. He just purchased a used edge-surging sewing machine, so will now be able to offer custom patches for local leagues and organizations. He is retied USN and understood the need to diversify right out of the gate. He's not rolling in it, but he gets his bills paid, and it allows him his passion to build cues. He also knows how to build the various machines he needs for his craft, and has slowly built his shop and wood inventory over the years. He also didn't look to over-expand his regionally boundaries, preferring instead to let his work get out there naturally...through the hands of players and word of mouth...he does not advertise. He also does not rely on the internet to hock his wares.

He is building his business and his reputation the old fashioned way...and it's working for him. Maybe in another 10 years he'll have a bigger reputation that reaches past the PacNorthwest...maybe he won't...I don't think he really cares, as long as he gets to keep making players cues for players. His name is Paul Allers, and he makes one of the best playing 60" cues one could hope to wrap their hands around.

Lisa
 
Here is what I see...

Someone isn't happy his cues ain't moving. Well let's see, who the hell would want to start making instruments to play a game, in a game that is declining in participation, when there are 5 new instrument makers a week, who within a month are seeing the same problem you're having.

If this is directed toward me JV, you are way off coarse. I brought this up due to the fact of how the cue world is operating at this particular time. And wanted to share my opinion and see if others had the same opinion as what I have been seeing. Nothing more.
There are many great makers right here on AZ that can build a great playing cue at a great price. That was my original point. They should not let the flippers bring them down trying to set thir markets with only certain cues or flavors of the month as I call it.
It is just a shame many won't try these makers cues due to influence, or should I say false influence of hyped up cues. It ruins the market in many ways and the only person who EVER benefits from this is the flipper, not the maker, or the customer in the long run.
So I do not agree with your statements at all. If you want , go to Valley Forge,US Open and stand in the middle and just take a 360 degree look. Those are pool players my friend, and they are by the thousands!
Thanx for allowing me to share my opinion and reveal many aspects of what I was saying.
Jim Lee
 
Flipping?

There are so many nice cues out there that I want to one day own. Unfortinate for me, I will need to "flip" a cue in order to afford another one. If I had the financial means, I would never sell or flip a cue. I try to buy low, have fun playing with it, sell at a medium price, and move on. I tend to look at cues that are common in my region or ones that I have personal past experiences with. I will also only buy quality cues built by quality cue makers. I do not listen too much to the hype or what the flavor of the month is presently.
 
Forums like AZ have created communities of like-minded individuals to share their interests, which in this case is cue collecting. Before the internet, joining or even finding such a community was much more difficult. One of the things this has led to is a huge surplus of cues that are not regularly used, yet likely have little collectible value (in terms of appreciation over purchase price). The effect is a general decline in cue values, and I'm fearful the proliferation of cues being bought and sold will lead to a near permanent decline in the cue market.
 
J&D CUSTOMS said:
Here is what I see...

Someone isn't happy his cues ain't moving. Well let's see, who the hell would want to start making instruments to play a game, in a game that is declining in participation, when there are 5 new instrument makers a week, who within a month are seeing the same problem you're having.

If this is directed toward me JV, you are way off coarse. I brought this up due to the fact of how the cue world is operating at this particular time. And wanted to share my opinion and see if others had the same opinion as what I have been seeing. Nothing more.
There are many great makers right here on AZ that can build a great playing cue at a great price. That was my original point. They should not let the flippers bring them down trying to set thir markets with only certain cues or flavors of the month as I call it.
It is just a shame many won't try these makers cues due to influence, or should I say false influence of hyped up cues. It ruins the market in many ways and the only person who EVER benefits from this is the flipper, not the maker, or the customer in the long run.
So I do not agree with your statements at all. If you want , go to Valley Forge,US Open and stand in the middle and just take a 360 degree look. Those are pool players my friend, and they are by the thousands!
Thanx for allowing me to share my opinion and reveal many aspects of what I was saying.
Jim Lee
Click to expand...

I've stood in the center of Valley Forge for the last 14 years and can tell you for the last 5-6 the numbers have been declining. BTW the majority of those playing down there, if the cue is over 250, they might have a heart attack.

The flippers aren't bringing down the market, the market is bringing down the market. What is a flipper? Flippers are guys trying to find the perfect hit, OR a small time cue dealer just trying to make 50-100 on every cue. If a cuemaker wants to deal with a flipper or cue dealer that is their right. In this market a maker needs to do anything and everything they can to get noticed.

Sure the APA, TAP and BCA leagues have great participation. But unless you're building cues with flames, skulls, grim reapers, or the Bud Light logo, they aren't your customers for the most part. In fact if you tell them there is a Szamboti in booth 327 they'll ask what the hell is an ice cleaning machine doing here.

Jamie asked you for some examples, so lets see you name someone who is an over-hyped cuemaker that is hurting the market using flippers.

If the cue flipper is the only one benefitting from the arrangement, how could there be so many flippers? There must be a lot of stupid cuemakers to support the flippers.

JV
 
classiccues said:
I've stood in the center of Valley Forge for the last 14 years and can tell you for the last 5-6 the numbers have been declining. BTW the majority of those playing down there, if the cue is over 250, they might have a heart attack.

The flippers aren't bringing down the market, the market is bringing down the market. What is a flipper? Flippers are guys trying to find the perfect hit, OR a small time cue dealer just trying to make 50-100 on every cue. If a cuemaker wants to deal with a flipper or cue dealer that is their right. In this market a maker needs to do anything and everything they can to get noticed.

Sure the APA, TAP and BCA leagues have great participation. But unless you're building cues with flames, skulls, grim reapers, or the Bud Light logo, they aren't your customers for the most part. In fact if you tell them there is a Szamboti in booth 327 they'll ask what the hell is an ice cleaning machine doing here.

Jamie asked you for some examples, so lets see you name someone who is an over-hyped cuemaker that is hurting the market using flippers.

If the cue flipper is the only one benefitting from the arrangement, how could there be so many flippers? There must be a lot of stupid cuemakers to support the flippers.

JV
Click to expand...


JV you seem very bothered by all this. It is an opinion, no need to get excited. I will not name any names of any flippers or my fellow makers. I am not like that at all and is not the point of this thread.
You say you have been to these places, then you know, the higher end market will always be there for those collectors and just folks with money, but be honest when I ask if the builders selling great cues at a great price booths aren't hopping and selling?
Cause they will pick up the cue, look at it, find a table near by, test hit it, and buy it with out carring to much the name or the persons sales pitch who is selling it. Cause they are holding it for themselves. Would be a great world if all customers could have a chance to do that! Then I could assure you this flipper game would change big time!
Thanx again,
Jim Lee
 
I agree with whoever said that flippers are people who cozy up to cuemakers and collectors professing love for the cues and then once they get their hands on the "special" cue they have waited a lifetime for they flip it two days later.

I have had special cues that I had to sell to pay bills many years after I acquired them. In several instances I called the makers and apologized. To this day I am sick that I had to sell those cues.

I don't believe that a flipper has this feeling about any cue. I think that they just want to be able to say that they "owned" x-brand.

At the end of the day people can and should be allowed to do whatever they want with the merchandise they own. But where it hurts is when feelings get invested and you think you are doing something special for a guy and the thing you made ends up for sale two days later.

As to the idea that some cue makers are overhyped by flippers I don't think that this is particularly true.

I think that especially today cuemakers get a reputation for quality FASTER because of all the trading and flipping. If the cues can't stand the scrutiny then they fade from the light as people complain about them.

Of course people will say nice things about the things they are trying to sell as one of my famous colleagues has stated. But at the end of the day if a cuemaker's product isn't really good then that WILL become known.

Are flippers good or bad for the market? In some ways good because they keep things moving and eventually good cues find a good home. In other ways bad because they cost a lot of time and emotion only to have the cue maker disappointed when the cue is put up for sale at an inflated price a short time later.

As to playing with cues. Well most sellers will advise customers to try out a range of cue brands and construction styles to find the type of cue they like. So people who go through a lot of cues are then able to describe their experience with it. So when someone comes on here and says they are interested in a Sugartree then there are plenty of people who can offer their opinion of how a Sugartree plays and feels because they have experience with it. To me, even though hit is subjective, there is something to be gained from having a larger pool of decent players who are experienced with the "hit" of a wide range of cues.

Somewhere in their a person can get a decent idea of whehter a particular cue might feel good to them or not. Now, this is certainly no substitute for actually playing with the cue as it's my experience that people who look at a cue's specs will often say that they are sure they won't like it and then when they pick it up they love it.

So I can definitely see the merit in buying a cue, trying it out and flipping it a short time later because it's not "the one". I have had cues made for me by well known cue makers that were kind of blah for me but that my friends LOVED. Jerry Olivier, my good friend built me one like this. I liked it well enough but it wasn't GREAT. Then a year later he hands me another shaft for it and OMG it was like I just had the best orgasm of my life when I hit a ball with this shaft. Why? What did Jerry do? I don't know, it just felt that good. That's the magic that is cue making in my opinion and for those of us lucky enough to have had that feeling when hitting balls we will always chase that feeling again should we let the perfect cue slip through our fingers.
 
J&D CUSTOMS said:
JV you seem very bothered by all this. It is an opinion, no need to get excited. I will not name any names of any flippers or my fellow makers. I am not like that at all and is not the point of this thread.
You say you have been to these places, then you know, the higher end market will always be there for those collectors and just folks with money, but be honest when I ask if the builders selling great cues at a great price booths aren't hopping and selling?
Cause they will pick up the cue, look at it, find a table near by, test hit it, and buy it with out carring to much the name or the persons sales pitch who is selling it. Cause they are holding it for themselves. Would be a great world if all customers could have a chance to do that! Then I could assure you this flipper game would change big time!
Thanx again,
Jim Lee
Click to expand...

I am having a problem with your definition of flippers, what exactly do you feel a flipper is? A guy that waits 10 years for a SW then sells it right away? What is a flipper?

JV
 
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