Hats Off To Jay Helfert

3andstop said:
Yeah, but that's because the politicians make millions on a crooked deal while we'd probably only make 50 bucks ... it just ain't worth it. :rolleyes:
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It is like the old joke about the guy in the bar who offers a women $1000 to go home with him. She thinks about it for a minute and says "Sure". How about $50.00 and she says "What kind of woman do you think I am"? "He say "We have established that, we just need to meet on the price".

For the right amount, anyone will be dishonest. You start talking millions and forget about it. I actually don't think even politicians start out to be that way but it is not that hard to corrupt anyone.

I never had anyone work for me I actually trusted. One guy beat me out of an estimated $30,000. When he knew I knew he disappeared. We never saw him again
I honestly don't trust anyone, humans are weird animals the strangest and most dangerous on the planet.
 
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NitPicker said:
If no one wanted to do something, there wouldn't need to be a rule or law.
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To a large degree that is true. However, most laws fall into the category of "we don't want you to do that...for your own good." When I grew up all you needed to legally drive a car was a driver's license. Now it's a license, insurance, environmental inspection, seat belts, shoulder harness, airbags, approved child-seat and so on.

NitPicker said:
Rules and laws do not create honesty, character, integrity or in our case, sportsmanship.
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Nor does a lack of rules. At least written rules give the honest player a "reference point" that he can hold the dishonest player to. Without rules the reference point becomes "I can do it because I can beat the crap out of you." aka Mob Rules.
 
I was once in the middle of a mini money game with a friend playing 8 ball race to 7. I had gotten to the hill at 6-3 and he was on the eight ball left with a cueball in the middle of the table and his eight ball was blocked on the long rail with no obvious pocket. He went down to shoot it softly without any call like you would shoot a safety and proceeded to bank the ball into the side pocket. He proceeded to rack the balls like he intended it to.

I decided not to contest the shot though i knew what he was trying to pull. Prior to this, there were also occasions where he clearly kick fouled and hit another object ball first but chose to keep quiet about it. Sometimes i do remind him after the shot is over but he is adamant that its a legal shot although my other friends watching clearly mentioned the same thing. Its just a friendly game and i did not want it to compromise any friendship. What would you have done in this aspect? I know that if i were him i would have admitted to a foul or a loss of rack regardless of the situation and circumstance. Honesty and integrity to me are vital and it brings across what kind of a character you have. I also had situations where i was reprimanded by my scotch doubles partner in competitions where i called foul on myself. Wondering where i had gone wrong.
 
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bdorman, I believe that while not the same for everyone, the "reference points" are innate within each of us. Our rules are simply a means of control, by other men. What's the difference in suffering consequences of actions versus consequences of breaking a rule? One only teaches to obey a rule, while the other actually teaches you why you shouldn't do something. Don't break the law or police will beat the crap out of you is mob mentality. Someone telling you it's for your own good is merely a disguise for telling you what's good for them. Only you can decide what's good for you and what isn't. It's not for someone else to decide. Perhaps one day we can get together and discuss this more...and maybe play a few as well. Thanks for the comment.
 
cc8ball said:
I had this happen to me at the ISPA event in Des Moines last month. My opponent was on the hill and I was down a couple games. He breaks the rack and scratches. I go to the table, set the CB down and run out the rack. I go back to my chair, proud of myself. I'm just a game back and it's my break. I feel I've got a good chance to make it a hill/hill match. I'm grabbing my break cue when my buddy leans over to me and says... "You just took ball in hand in the middle of the table". I was stunned and he was right. I had not even realized that I had done it. Apparently, I saw my opponents scratch, thought foul...and nothing else.

I have always played the game as a gentleman, always called fouls on myself, believing that it is simply... the right thing to do. So...I went to my opponent and conceded that game, giving him the match. For some reason...he didn't see me commit the foul. He was surprised to say the least. I explained what had just taken place, that I cannot win a game like that. We shook hands, I wished him good luck for the remainder of the event and we parted ways. I lost the match, yet still felt good about it.
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This is an interesting scenario because technically after the next shot is taken, and a foul was not called, it is too late to call it. Had a TD been called into it a couple shots later either by you or him, I would expect the TD would rule in one of two ways.

1) Keep shooting, because your opponent has missed his window of opportunity to call that foul

2) Replay the game

I don't think the TD would declare that you must concede the game. You may have over-punished yourself in your gentleman-ship.
 
maha said:
works great when playing for small change. but for a larger prize or gambling when someone gets in bad they just call a foul on the opponent and say his shirt or something touched a ball. and call a foul.

Take a look at the rules in American Rotation. Joe contemplated the above when he wrote the AMRO rules.

Don
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Cue ball fouls only is a much better way to go for most tournaments and leagues.

With cue ball fouls, however, allowing the opponent to replace the ball if it's touched prior to the shot is important. Also, it's important for it to be a foul if an object ball is moved during the final stroke.

All ball fouls slow down matches considerably --- cause grief for anyone wanting to wear a long sleeve shirt --- cause grief for women with shoulder length or longer hair --- cause grief for anyone having to stretch for shot. These are all things that should not be in play in determining who wins or loses a match.
 
Here is the standardized Rule for fouling all balls.

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot.

Here they are: Rules for Cue Ball Fouls Only.

1-33 Disturbed Balls (Cue Ball Fouls Only) (AR p. 91)
1. During a game, it is not a foul if you accidentally touch or move a single stationary object ball with any part of your body, clothing or equipment, unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot.
2. "Effect on the outcome of the shot" means that either the disturbed ball contacts any ball set in motion as a result of the shot, or that the base of any ball set in motion as a result of the shot passes through the area originally occupied by the disturbed ball. That area is defined as a circle approximately seven inches in diameter centered on the
OFFICIAL RULES OF CUESPORTS INTERNATIONAL
34
position originally occupied by the disturbed ball (see Diagram 6).
3. If a disturbed ball has no effect on the outcome of the shot, your opponent has the option to leave the disturbed ball where it came to rest or to restore it to its original position before the next shot. If the disturbed ball is to be restored, a referee may restore it, your opponent may restore it, or you may restore it with your opponent’s permission. It is a foul if you touch or restore the disturbed ball without your opponent's permission.
4. It is a foul if a disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot. Your opponent has no restoration option.
5. If you disturb a single object ball and, in the same shot, commit a foul that is not related to the disturbed ball: you are penalized for the foul, and your opponent has the restoration option for the disturbed ball that was not involved in the foul.
6. If a single disturbed ball falls into a pocket with no effect on the outcome of a shot, your opponent has the restoration option. However, if the disturbed ball is designated by specific game rules as the game winning ball, it must be restored. If the game-winning ball is disturbed and falls into a pocket when there is an effect on the outcome of the shot, it is loss of game.
7. It is a foul if:
a. you disturb the cue ball;
b. you disturb more than one object ball;
c. a disturbed ball contacts any other ball;
d. you disturb a ball that is in motion.
Your opponent has no restoration option. If the game-winning ball is disturbed in conjunction with a violation of (a) through (d) and falls into a pocket, it is loss of game.
1-34 Jump Shots and Massé Shots
1. Jump shots are legal shots. However, it is a foul if you intentionally cause the cue ball to rise off the bed of the table by "digging under" or "scooping" the cue ball with the cue. If such a motion is unintentional, it is considered a miscue, and not a foul in and of itself. (AR p. 90)
2. If you attempt to jump over or massé around an impeding illegal object ball then Rule 1-33, Disturbed Balls, does not apply to the impeding ball for that shot. If the impeding illegal object ball moves during the stroke it is a foul regardless of whether it was moved by your equipment or any part of your body.

Which is simpler and clearer?
 
In 2004 Darren Appleton called a foul on himself on the break trailing 9-10 in a race to 11 match for the English 8 ball World Final, knowing it cost him the title. The ref didn't spot it either.
 
SilentLurker said:
In 2004 Darren Appleton called a foul on himself on the break trailing 9-10 in a race to 11 match for the English 8 ball World Final, knowing it cost him the title. The ref didn't spot it either.
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Nice. Daz is a class act.

Gideon
 
FranCrimi said:
Cue ball fouls only is a much better way to go for most tournaments and leagues.

With cue ball fouls, however, allowing the opponent to replace the ball if it's touched prior to the shot is important. Also, it's important for it to be a foul if an object ball is moved during the final stroke.

All ball fouls slow down matches considerably --- cause grief for anyone wanting to wear a long sleeve shirt --- cause grief for women with shoulder length or longer hair --- cause grief for anyone having to stretch for shot. These are all things that should not be in play in determining who wins or loses a match.
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Years ago I think Jimmy Marino fouled a ball with his hair. Miz was always trying to not touch balls with his stomach. I believe it was Crane who while chalking dropped the chalk, it hit the rubber cushion bounced on the table and touched a ball. It was a foul and the opponent ran out.
 
lee brett said:
I am glad you decided to go this way, snooker has always been like this and we always called fouls on our self.

I called one on myself at your tournament recently and lots of people looked at me like i was crazy, i would always call a foul as it would play on my mind if i didn't and affect my own game.

Lee
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I was playing in 9ball league and was on on the 8 during a break and run, touched the cue accidentally and called a foul on myself and my Captn almost lost it lol. I will always be honest, a W is nothing if I cheated to get it.
 
Good for you! You're a credit to the sport! I have always called my own fouls...for the past 45 years. Either you have integrity or you don't. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

cc8ball said:
I had this happen to me at the ISPA event in Des Moines last month. My opponent was on the hill and I was down a couple games. He breaks the rack and scratches. I go to the table, set the CB down and run out the rack. I go back to my chair, proud of myself. I'm just a game back and it's my break. I feel I've got a good chance to make it a hill/hill match. I'm grabbing my break cue when my buddy leans over to me and says... "You just took ball in hand in the middle of the table". I was stunned and he was right. I had not even realized that I had done it. Apparently, I saw my opponents scratch, thought foul...and nothing else.

I have always played the game as a gentleman, always called fouls on myself, believing that it is simply... the right thing to do. So...I went to my opponent and conceded that game, giving him the match. For some reason...he didn't see me commit the foul. He was surprised to say the least. I explained what had just taken place, that I cannot win a game like that. We shook hands, I wished him good luck for the remainder of the event and we parted ways. I lost the match, yet still felt good about it.
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Fouls

i prefer cue ball fouls only, I like letting the shooting sort it out. I call fouls on myself and think most of us do. In weeklys I run its much easier to adhere to cue ball fouls only, but I do understand the need for the other, especially in major tourneys or high stakes. But I'm not really sold on the idea if my or my opponents shirt grazes a ball that it should be a foul.
 
I don't mind playing either way really.

As far as calling your own fouls is concerned, I think the issue can actually be debated but only because we play a game where being a gentlemen is not encouraged nor expected. The simple act of adding this expectation to the rules and having promotor's mention this before their tournaments can change this culture very quickly. Add to that a punishment to any player who is observed not calling a foul on themselves and we could be on our way to classing up our game.

I like it.
 
BasementDweller said:
I don't mind playing either way really.

As far as calling your own fouls is concerned, I think the issue can actually be debated but only because we play a game where being a gentlemen is not encouraged nor expected. The simple act of adding this expectation to the rules and having promotor's mention this before their tournaments can change this culture very quickly. Add to that a punishment to any player who is observed not calling a foul on themselves and we could be on our way to classing up our game.

I like it.
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I called a push foul on myself at league last week. The captain of the other team praised me for my honesty, said that pool is better off, the league is better off, no one would have noticed, etc. etc. I had done this before against his team and he said the same praise then, so I was kind of overwhelmed that he said it again this time. I thought maybe he had forgotten the last time I did that, so I just told him that I if I "won" that way it wasn't me doing it and that's not why I play. If I want to cheat, I'll run for office.

It wasn't a hour later and he tried breaking a rule about jumping and defended it profusely until he was heckled so much he finally caved-in with shame. I said nothing but boy did my teammates give him crap! It was embarrassing to say the least.

Jeff Livingston
 
Just to inject a little comedy, wasn't there a breast foul in a match withing the last couple years? They even switched angles to get a better view, I believe the ref went to a monitor to check.
 
NitPicker said:
Rules and laws are made to be broken. If no one wanted to do something, there wouldn't need to be a rule or law. Rules and laws do not create honesty, character, integrity or in our case, sportsmanship. We have more rules and laws today than ever and yet honesty, character, integrity and sportsmanship get harder and harder to find.

After all, this is why many feel all ball fouls are good for the game. We're trying to capture human decency in a confined box of rules, but it will continue to elude and escape until people are capable of harnessing it themselves. Then, there'd be no need for rules or laws.
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The "All Ball fouls" rule is there for fairness, and to punish the player for altering the outcome of the game in a tournament situation where that actually matters. It's not in place to try to find the last ounce of human decency.

It sounds like you think all rules are in place to keep peoples integrity in check. Rules are what define the boundries of the game itself. Otherwise you're just smacking balls around randomly.
 
Frankly, I care very little either way. I am looking for a rule that is clear, definitive, and easy to understand and follow. Cue ball foul only rules are mushy, subjective, and complicated.

The topic of "calling fouls on one's self" is a seperate one, regardless of which rule is chosen.

Since instituting all ball fouls, I have found there to be less fouls. Men (and women) wear short sleeve shirts. Women tie their hair back. Players are generally more careful, resulting in less confusion and fewer fouls. For the aspiring player, it is probably not a bad idea to develop good habits where fouling object balls are concerned.
 
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