Hats Off To Jay Helfert

Paul Schofield

Paul Schofield

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A few years ago there was a thread devoted to the ambiguity and confusion of the "cue ball only fouls". Jay suggested "Why not all ball fouls?" It is simple and clear, a requirement for the making of a good rule. I thought about it for a year and decided to take his suggestion. Two more years have passed and I have run with "all ball fouls" for eight Tri-state Regional Events, all our leagues, and more than a hundred local weekly Eight & Nine-Ball tournaments.

"All Ball Fouls" has turned out to be the way to go. I follow the rule with "...and you are required and expected to call fouls on yourself." It has made for many interesting and productive discussions about sportsmanship, and integrity. Thanks Jay.
 
Paul Schofield said:
A few years ago there was a thread devoted to the ambiguity and confusion of the "cue ball only fouls". Jay suggested "Why not all ball fouls?" It is simple and clear, a requirement for the making of a good rule. I thought about it for a year and decided to take his suggestion. Two more years have passed and I have run with "all ball fouls" for eight Tri-state Regional Events, all our leagues, and more than a hundred local weekly Eight & Nine-Ball tournaments.

"All Ball Fouls" has turned out to be the way to go. I follow the rule with "...and you are required and expected to call fouls on yourself." It has made for many interesting and productive discussions about sportsmanship, and integrity. Thanks Jay.
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I am glad you decided to go this way, snooker has always been like this and we always called fouls on our self.

I called one on myself at your tournament recently and lots of people looked at me like i was crazy, i would always call a foul as it would play on my mind if i didn't and affect my own game.

Lee
 
THAT is the way I learned to play pool when I worked in the pool hall many years ago. Only when I came to Hawaii did I ever start seeing people playing only cue ball fouls.
 
works great when playing for small change. but for a larger prize or gambling when someone gets in bad they just call a foul on the opponent and say his shirt or something touched a ball. and call a foul.

the rule needs to have a ref there at each table.
 
When I started playing NY it was foul on all balls in all games, it makes things difficult when leaning over a ball or bridging over a ball especially in one pocket where it comes up often.
 
lee brett said:
I am glad you decided to go this way, snooker has always been like this and we always called fouls on our self.

I called one on myself at your tournament recently and lots of people looked at me like i was crazy, i would always call a foul as it would play on my mind if i didn't and affect my own game.

Lee
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Yes Lee. In Snooker there has always been 'A Code of Honour'. I too have called foul on myself and everyone looked at me like I was from another planet..! When in fact it usually makes us focus better for the remainder of the match.

In terms of professionalism, Snooker is light years ahead of Pool. :thumbup:
 
How does this 'Code of Honor', as you call it relate to whether the call is on all balls, or cue ball fouls only. Sportsmanship either exists, or it doesn't.
As to the notion that Snooker is 'light years' ahead of Pool, in professionalism, is pure bullshit, or should I say. "Your comment, old chap, is bollocks."
 
maha said:
works great when playing for small change. but for a larger prize or gambling when someone gets in bad they just call a foul on the opponent and say his shirt or something touched a ball. and call a foul.

the rule needs to have a ref there at each table.
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For the same reason we lock our doors to keep honest people honest, you can't trust people to do the right thing. They just won't. The only thing that governs peoples honestly is, what are the chances they will get caught.
All fouls just invites problems if you are depending on people to call fouls on themselves. Playing with a ref is a different thing.
 
macguy said:
For the same reason we lock our doors to keep honest people honest, you can't trust people to do the right thing. They just won't. The only thing that governs peoples honestly is, what are the chances they will get caught.
All fouls just invites problems if you are depending on people to call fouls on themselves. Playing with a ref is a different thing.
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Well said! Its simply human nature. Those who think otherwise may not have been exposed to their individual threshold yet. :D
 
I had this happen to me at the ISPA event in Des Moines last month. My opponent was on the hill and I was down a couple games. He breaks the rack and scratches. I go to the table, set the CB down and run out the rack. I go back to my chair, proud of myself. I'm just a game back and it's my break. I feel I've got a good chance to make it a hill/hill match. I'm grabbing my break cue when my buddy leans over to me and says... "You just took ball in hand in the middle of the table". I was stunned and he was right. I had not even realized that I had done it. Apparently, I saw my opponents scratch, thought foul...and nothing else.

I have always played the game as a gentleman, always called fouls on myself, believing that it is simply... the right thing to do. So...I went to my opponent and conceded that game, giving him the match. For some reason...he didn't see me commit the foul. He was surprised to say the least. I explained what had just taken place, that I cannot win a game like that. We shook hands, I wished him good luck for the remainder of the event and we parted ways. I lost the match, yet still felt good about it.
 
cc8ball said:
I had this happen to me at the ISPA event in Des Moines last month. My opponent was on the hill and I was down a couple games. He breaks the rack and scratches. I go to the table, set the CB down and run out the rack. I go back to my chair, proud of myself. I'm just a game back and it's my break. I feel I've got a good chance to make it a hill/hill match. I'm grabbing my break cue when my buddy leans over to me and says... "You just took ball in hand in the middle of the table". I was stunned and he was right. I had not even realized that I had done it. Apparently, I saw my opponents scratch, thought foul...and nothing else.

I have always played the game as a gentleman, always called fouls on myself, believing that it is simply... the right thing to do. So...I went to my opponent and conceded that game, giving him the match. For some reason...he didn't see me commit the foul. He was surprised to say the least. I explained what had just taken place, that I cannot win a game like that. We shook hands, I wished him good luck for the remainder of the event and we parted ways. I lost the match, yet still felt good about it.
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I had almost the same thing happen to me but in reverse. I was away from the table and the guy scratched. He put the cue ball on the table and sat down.

When I came back I looked at the table for a minute and began shooting. I got out and ultimately won the match. After the match everyone was talking about what had just happened. They told me they didn't know what to do. Should someone in the audience have yelled out "Ball in hand".

My opponent acted like he had done nothing wrong as he sat there and watched me shoot from where he had put the cue ball with his hand. The ability for people to play dumb is pretty prevalent.
 
cc8ball said:
I had this happen to me at the ISPA event in Des Moines last month. My opponent was on the hill and I was down a couple games. He breaks the rack and scratches. I go to the table, set the CB down and run out the rack. I go back to my chair, proud of myself. I'm just a game back and it's my break. I feel I've got a good chance to make it a hill/hill match. I'm grabbing my break cue when my buddy leans over to me and says... "You just took ball in hand in the middle of the table". I was stunned and he was right. I had not even realized that I had done it. Apparently, I saw my opponents scratch, thought foul...and nothing else.
I have always played the game as a gentleman, always called fouls on myself, believing that it is simply... the right thing to do. So...I went to my opponent and conceded that game, giving him the match. For some reason...he didn't see me commit the foul. He was surprised to say the least. I explained what had just taken place, that I cannot win a game like that. We shook hands, I wished him good luck for the remainder of the event and we parted ways. I lost the match, yet still felt good about it.
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Well done, cc8. You did the right thing. A lesson to us all. You are a beacon of light in a world of darkness. A shining ray of hope.
Remind me to never to stake you in a big money game. :wink:
 
What's interesting about this thread - some - maybe most - pool players have more integrity than the politicians who run the country.
 
cc8ball said:
I had this happen to me at the ISPA event in Des Moines last month. My opponent was on the hill and I was down a couple games. He breaks the rack and scratches. I go to the table, set the CB down and run out the rack. I go back to my chair, proud of myself. I'm just a game back and it's my break. I feel I've got a good chance to make it a hill/hill match. I'm grabbing my break cue when my buddy leans over to me and says... "You just took ball in hand in the middle of the table". I was stunned and he was right. I had not even realized that I had done it. Apparently, I saw my opponents scratch, thought foul...and nothing else.

I have always played the game as a gentleman, always called fouls on myself, believing that it is simply... the right thing to do. So...I went to my opponent and conceded that game, giving him the match. For some reason...he didn't see me commit the foul. He was surprised to say the least. I explained what had just taken place, that I cannot win a game like that. We shook hands, I wished him good luck for the remainder of the event and we parted ways. I lost the match, yet still felt good about it.
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Good for you and good for the game.

Too bad it wasn't against me! I needed all the help I could get.

Jeff Livingston
 
macguy said:
For the same reason we lock our doors to keep honest people honest, you can't trust people to do the right thing. They just won't. The only thing that governs peoples honestly is, what are the chances they will get caught.
All fouls just invites problems if you are depending on people to call fouls on themselves. Playing with a ref is a different thing.
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Agreed. The best summary is "the desire to win is greater than the desire to be honest, adjusted for the cost of losing." This assumes that the chance of being caught is zero (i.e. you can't suffer any loss of reputation because you're the only one who knows a foul occurred).

Certainly, there are people value their honesty more than winning, but they are far fewer than those who value winning more.
 
bdorman said:
Agreed. The best summary is "the desire to win is greater than the desire to be honest, adjusted for the cost of losing." This assumes that the chance of being caught is zero (i.e. you can't suffer any loss of reputation because you're the only one who knows a foul occurred).

Certainly, there are people value their honesty more than winning, but they are far fewer than those who value winning more.
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"the desire to win is greater than the desire to be honest, adjusted for the cost of losing."

I don't know if you just made that up but I am stealing it.
 
I like cue ball foul only.:yes:


I think it would be a bull shit call it someone's belly or shirt touched a ball

while shooting and a foul is called.:dance:
 
I have a tremor and often touch other balls when cueing or setting up a shot. I'd be toast if this rule passed, but I think it's a good rule anyway. It would take away some b/s that comes up.

Maybe I'd learn to not touch other balls if it cost me so often and become a better player overall?

Jeff Livingston
 
Rules and laws are made to be broken. If no one wanted to do something, there wouldn't need to be a rule or law. Rules and laws do not create honesty, character, integrity or in our case, sportsmanship. We have more rules and laws today than ever and yet honesty, character, integrity and sportsmanship get harder and harder to find.

After all, this is why many feel all ball fouls are good for the game. We're trying to capture human decency in a confined box of rules, but it will continue to elude and escape until people are capable of harnessing it themselves. Then, there'd be no need for rules or laws.
 
alstl said:
What's interesting about this thread - some - maybe most - pool players have more integrity than the politicians who run the country.
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Yeah, but that's because the politicians make millions on a crooked deal while we'd probably only make 50 bucks ... it just ain't worth it. :rolleyes:
 
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