Heart vs Skill

That's what it is JB....

JB Cases said:
Exactly.

Heart is what allowed Alex to come back on Shane the first time they played on TAR.

Heart is all about overcoming the odds against you. Using all the skills you possess PLUS the extra dose of grit to stay in the game and BEAR DOWN.

Efren and Alex could have thrown in the towel and started playing with their give up stroke. Instead they reached deep down and found an extra gear.
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Heart is not giving in to that give up stroke because you're down.

I've been having to overcome the opposite of heart, but it isn't give up, it's been just nerves.

I would play perfect to get on or close to the hill and then just couldn't close out.

Last year I was playing in a tourney at Jamaica Joe's. High level regional tournament with all the pros from around there and some that weren't.

I was destroying everyone I played. diamond barbox nineball, alternating break, no one got more than 4 games on me in a race to 9.

I get to the match to be guaranteed the money and it's the same thing. I get up 8-4 and it's my break and I break down, nothing goes my way. I ended up losing 9-8.

That should never happen to a player of my caliber in alternating break barbox nineball. I was sick. It wasn't that I had give up stroke, it was that I just wasn't used to playing under the pressure.

Then in last years swanee, I was two rounds deep into the money, and I did the same thing. I was up 6-2 in a race to 7 and ended up losing 7-6.

So I vowed to get to where I could start playing in more tourneys to get that seasoning I need to get over that.

It's gotten better than what got me to quit gambling and competing 17 years ago though. I had had a really bad relationship and it started affecting my game. At first my money game and then my tournament play. I would play at whatever the level of my opponent was at that time. Didn't matter if they were an A player or a C player, I would play just like they were playing.

I've spent the last ten years working on that, but I still didn't gamble hardly at all or play in more than one major tourney a year, so it's been slow going.

It was just this last year that I realized if I really wanted to start competing well again, I couldn't do it out of my garage, I had to get out there and start competing.

Jaden
 
TheThaiger said:
A lot of people confuse heart with mouth.
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You would be one of them. Don't equate silence with heart either. It takes heart to step up and takes heart to bet it up takes heart to talk it up and takes heart to take it down.

It takes heart to stand in the line of fire and not be bullied or cowed from stating your position when you know that position is from a solid stance.

Takes no heart to take cheap shots from the sidelines with no skin in the game.
 
Heart in pool is generally a term used to describe either someone who does not quit playing strong when they are getting beat and it starts to look hopeless or heart is used to describe someone who wins because they believed in themselves when everyone else saw them as overmatched. Heart can also be used to describe someone who consistently seems unaffected by pressure.

The factors that determine the amount of heart are 1)motivation and 2)beliefs and both can fluctuate from day to day or situation to situation or both can be manipulated sometimes on the spot however most of the top athletes in any sport carry with them a desire and a set of core beliefs that make them mentally tougher than the average guy.





Just look at this quote from Jordan and you can see how his beliefs might differ from yours.

"Never say never because limits, like fears, are often just an illusion."

Or how about this quote from an old football player named Homer Rice.

“You can motivate by fear, and you can motivate by reward. But both those methods are only temporary. The only lasting thing is self motivation.”
 
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(((Satori))) said:
Heart in pool is generally a term used to describe either someone who does not quit playing strong when they are getting beat and it starts to look hopeless or when they believe in themselves when everyone else sees them as overmatched.

The factors that determine the amount of heart are 1)motivation and 2)belief and both can fluctuate from day to day or situation to situation or both can be manipulated sometimes on the spot however most of the top athletes in any sport carry with them a desire and a set of core beliefs that make them mentally tougher than the average guy.





Just look at this quote from Jordan and you can see how his beliefs might differ from yours.

"Never say never because limits, like fears, are often just an illusion."

Or how about this quote from an old football player named Homer Rice.

“You can motivate by fear, and you can motivate by reward. But both those methods are only temporary. The only lasting thing is self motivation.”
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Self-motivation actually appears to be the key. When we have these major debates over talent vs. training the overarching finding among researchers is that the athletes who show the greatest self-driven motivation to train harder, longer and deeper than their competitors are the ones who have the most success.

That said of course an overweight short fat guy isn't going to play in the NBA. BUT if that short fat guy had true desire to play in the NBA he wouldn't be fat he would be lean and mean and a basketball machine. If the NBA had a "you must be this tall to ride this ride" requirement then he would simply be physically unable to play. But he could still build all the skills required and would probably be able to out play a lot of NBA players who got in with less "heart" and drive just because they were physically suited and had enough skill to get in.

Heart is the one thing you probably can't train into a person. Either they have it or they don't. And it's not something that is just go go go with no backup either. It takes a lot of heart to go for it and admit that despite the desire you just don't have the skill. People with heart though will get back up, go train some more and try again because it's what they do.

Although you might be able to train it into someone as well. I don't know.
 
JB Cases said:
You would be one of them. Don't equate silence with heart either. It takes heart to step up and takes heart to bet it up takes heart to talk it up and takes heart to take it down.

It takes heart to stand in the line of fire and not be bullied or cowed from stating your position when you know that position is from a solid stance.

Takes no heart to take cheap shots from the sidelines with no skin in the game.
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Lol.

We'll see in a few week's time, eh?
 
If a player has the knowledge then it is all about his MIND and it's FLUCTUATIONS. If the mind is clear then he should play as if he plays when he doen't face anyone. There is no opponent in pool. It's just you and the table. This is the hardest thing to learn..............
 
ps611846 said:
If a player has the knowledge then it is all about his MIND and it's FLUCTUATIONS. If the mind is clear then he should play as if he plays when he doen't face anyone. There is no opponent in pool. It's just you and the table. This is the hardest thing to learn..............
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This is a very zen way to look at it but the reality is that the opponent is very much there and their moves dictate yours as yours dictates theirs. They have choices when they come to the table and you cannot force them to only take your choice. If it were just you and the table then we would not play against opponents. Conquering the other human's desire to beat you is the challenge in my opinion.

To make this more practical. You might be playing a guy who is a GREAT banker and a lousy shotmaker. In other words he makes every straight back from every angle but cannot make an 8ft shot to save his life. So you play the opponent's weakness and avoid his strengths.

However in principle I agree with you that it's important to play the table more than the man.
 
JB Cases said:
This is a very zen way to look at it but the reality is that the opponent is very much there and their moves dictate yours as yours dictates theirs. They have choices when they come to the table and you cannot force them to only take your choice. If it were just you and the table then we would not play against opponents. Conquering the other human's desire to beat you is the challenge in my opinion.
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For once I'm in agreement.

Some players just have a presence that can be intimidating for anyone.
 
JB Cases said:
This is a very zen way to look at it but the reality is that the opponent is very much there and their moves dictate yours as yours dictates theirs. They have choices when they come to the table and you cannot force them to only take your choice. If it were just you and the table then we would not play against opponents. Conquering the other human's desire to beat you is the challenge in my opinion.

To make this more practical. You might be playing a guy who is a GREAT banker and a lousy shotmaker. In other words he makes every straight back from every angle but cannot make an 8ft shot to save his life. So you play the opponent's weakness and avoid his strengths.

However in principle I agree with you that it's important to play the table more than the man.
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Still I can't do anything when he is playing and he also can't do anything when I am on the table. There is no challenge.

Let me ask you something. If you played let's say Francisco Bustamante or Efren in his prime and you have never heard of him, would you play better ??? It would be still Francisco or Efren. But if you were not aware of their background and skill, this would make you play better. They wouldn't do anything different. It's all in the MIND !!!!!!!!!!!
 
It only takes 3 things to make it

If we are talking about matching up the three things you need are
Heart
Bankroll
Game
None is really more important than the other. You need them all.
We got a guy here that plays strong. Hes got 1-2K on him in cash all the time. Its a bad bet for me to play him, but I would for 5k. The guy has no heart. He shows his true color as yellow by:
Never playing over 50 a set
Quitting after winning or losing usually 2 sets max, he is a lock artist,never presses
Doesnt travel to even nearby regional events, forget the big stage events
Wont buy more tgan 1/2 himself if he goes over 40 in an auction
Splits in the finals of a local event routinely
Wont match up with stronger players

I would rather be a guy who dogs a little than have no heart. It is the one part of what is needed that is not earned or learned. You either have it or you dont.
 
Heart is best visualized by watchin' Varner in match play, NO give up at all EVER. He went to the Phillipines and played Efren in his prime....beating him shows a character trait Few have. If ya want heart, look at the depression era players during the Mosconi years, you either ate or starved. That's why the pinoys are so good, their demographic is near identical to the depression years that burped out Lassiter and his cohorts.
 
ps611846 said:
Still I can't do anything when he is playing and he also can't do anything when I am on the table. There is no challenge.

Let me ask you something. If you played let's say Francisco Bustamante or Efren in his prime and you have never heard of him, would you play better ??? It would be still Francisco or Efren. But if you were not aware of their background and skill, this would make you play better. They wouldn't do anything different. It's all in the MIND !!!!!!!!!!!
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Yes I have beaten players who were supposed to be better than me because I didn't know that they were supposed to be better. I get it. But on the other hand you can also be confronted with a player who has a better answer to everything you do and that can be intimidating. This is the origin of the phrase, "who is this guy?".

It's never as easy as saying just play the table. That is something people say which is nearly impossible to actually put into practice. For example if you are playing the ghost you would be playing the table only because the ghost is out no matter how you miss. You cannot play safe against the ghost because the ghost runs out every time.

So, if you are playing a human how do you justify playing the table as if you were playing the ghost? Obviously against the ghost you must try to run out at all costs. But against a human you never assume that they can run out easily when you play them safe. So you don't try to run out all the time. Buddy Hall said pool isn't hard, you only have two choices, shoot or duck.

So if you choose duck then where? How do you play safe to make your opponent's life miserable? If your choice is to shoot or duck and both are equally hard do you have the heart to shoot? Well that depends on you of course and how you are feeling but also on what you think the consequences will be. For example if I think my opponent can't run out then I am more inclined to shoot than duck. But if he can run out then perhaps I want to duck and then am faced with where to put him.

So again in principle I agree that developing the ability to detach and play the table is a great skill I also think that the zen master is acutely aware of all living things in his purview and adjusts accordingly to them.
 
Island Drive said:
Heart is best visualized by watchin' Varner in match play, NO give up at all EVER. He went to the Phillipines and played Efren in his prime....beating him shows a character trait Few have. If ya want heart, look at the depression era players during the Mosconi years, you either ate or starved. That's why the pinoys are so good, their demographic is near identical to the depression years that burped out Lassiter and his cohorts.
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And he did all of that without saying how much heart he had. His actions spoke louder than any words could. Shows class and professionalism.

What good is having heart if you are an annoying douche bag?
 
MahnaMahna said:
And he did all of that without saying how much heart he had. His actions spoke louder than any words could. Shows class and professionalism.

What good is having heart if you are an annoying douche bag?
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It's self satisfying. Heart has nothing to do with pleasing YOU and everything to do with pleasing me.
 
MahnaMahna said:
And he did all of that without saying how much heart he had. His actions spoke louder than any words could. Shows class and professionalism.

What good is having heart if you are an annoying douche bag?
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Efren said if he needed ONE man to play one game for all Efren's money...
...he'd pick Nicky for it.


pt....one of MahnaMahna's minions
 
pt109 said:
Efren said if he needed ONE man to play one game for all Efren's money...
...he'd pick Nicky for it.


pt....one of MahnaMahna's minions
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If I beat everyone in the world then I'd pick the guy who beat me to bet my money on as well :-)

That Efren has no heart :-)
 
JB Cases said:
It's self satisfying. Heart has nothing to do with pleasing YOU and everything to do with pleasing me.
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LOL yeah bullshit, as much as you may want to convince yourself that all of this "heart" you keep telling everyone you are showing is for your pleasure, the truth is much more obvious.
 
Lots of interesting replies here. Without skills you have no business playing. Without heart, all the skill in the world isn't going to save you, we've all known the guy that runs racks practicing but the wheels fall off at as little as $50 a rack. IMHO heart is in your mind, being down and willing yourself to shut out the rail birds, your whining stake horse, the $, everything and everybody and focus on the task at hand and not being denied, that's often called heart but the ability to do it lies within your mind, that's where fear exists and the only place it exists and whether you feel it, heat or pressure is a choice you make and making the choice not to feel it is heart. What's really most important IMO is knowing how to match up, it's crucial.
 
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