Heavy vs. Light Cues...

[bobalouiecda]

Follow Through

As I understand it, just as in golf, the instant the ball is hit there is no longer any contact with the ball. Follow through has nothing to do with the amount of time the cue ball is contacted. Follow through is necessary for at least two other reasons. One is to maintain cue or (club speed in golf).
Secondly if you do not follow through on a regular basis you will have a greater tendency for inaccuracy. Therefore how do you see it that the cue ball is in contact longer with a heavier cue and imparts more energy even though a concession was made that the two have the same kinetic energy.

Another point is that the reason it is easier for most to get better action on the ball with a heavier cue, is that the player has not mastered the correct techniques for an excellent stroke. The most masterful strokers can use any weight cue and get great action. The more inexperienced, the easier it is to impart English with a heavier cue.

This brings me back to my original hypothesis and (OPINION). I reached the level of expertise so as to determine which weight best worked for me and found a slightly lighter cue developed maximum power and stroke. And by the way it was not necessary to grip the light cue tighter. Just the opposite. It is necessary to hold very lightly, almost a slip stroke to maintain accuracy and power when shooting with a light cue.

I never intended this to be an argument, but I have studied and played for over 47 years, and am opinionated about the one facet of the game that I most closely mastered. Opinions and logical conclusions are not proof.

 

[Dakota Cues]

Bobalouiecda,

No worries here. This was never intended to even be a debate, much less an arguement. I just wanted to hear from both camps and what they liked about having a heavier or lighter cue.

The interesting thing is that there is some overlap, which I didn't expect. A lot of the lighter cue guys say that they are holding the cue super light, which I would expect only from the heavier cue guys. Both sides also said the cues weight (whether heavier or lighter) are keys to being able to move the cb the way they do.

I appreciate your input, as well as everyone else's. I was amazed to find out exactly how light (and how heavy) the cues the players here shoot with are. I'm a fan of a heavier cue. I have never played with a super light cue, but if I ever decide to try it out, I'm sure I'll find some neat things that I've never experienced before!

 

[Island Drive]

My thought is that straight pool players would favor slightly lighter sticks and nine ball players would favor heavier sticks that make it easier to travel the cue ball but that is just my guess. Hard to say about one pocket players. Until it becomes an uptable game I would favor a very light stick for myself. A couple ounces heavier might make long banks easier.

Hu

I played with a borrowed Balabushka back in the late 60's. I was young and impressionable at the time, but found the weight/balance of the cue "memorable", it hit like no other cue I've ever played with from then on.
It had to be at least a 20oz, ebony butt, stainless joint, 4 points and allot of inlays, but my point, it was the best cue I've ever felt when it come to following the cue ball effortlessly, it did the work 'for' you. In straight pool, follow was used allot to break the rack apart. I wonder if George built his cues during this 14.1 era with the follow shot a big concern. This cue seemed to do ALL the work when whitey needed to go forward.

 

[ShootingArts]

too much missing

There is considerably more to cue speed when it hits the cue ball than the stick weight and the maximum strength available in the arm muscles.

Hu

Sorry guys, but the one constant here is the energy input from the arm muscles.

It is true that for two cues traveling at the same speed, a heavy cue has more energy, but that's not what is really happening when you ask for this comparison.

For the same force applied over the same distance (arm muscle energy input), a light cue will have a faster speed than a heavy cue, and they both will have the same kinetic energy. A lighter cue transfers a higher percentage of that energy to the CB. Mechanical engineers know this as the coefficient of restitution.

The closer in mass two colliding objects are, the more efficient the energy transfer is. You can see this on the table with a straight-in stop shot: the OB gets (nearly) 100% of the CB energy because they have the same mass.

 

[ShootingArts]

"your cue"

Everyone has a perfect cue for them. It might be the Balabushka or it might be a very cheap stick. However the weight, the balance, the shaft, the tip, everything is perfect for that player. You can pick up a dozen cues of the same weight from the same maker and only one will sing to you, if you are lucky. The bushka was made by a very knowledgeable man but you might pick up a dozen more that were nice but didn't compare to that one for you.

I don't doubt that the older sticks were designed more for follow however. When I started many of the old players regarded draw as more of a gimmick shot. You mostly used follow or stun and angles to move the cue ball around. You needed that heavy stick on big tables with slow cloth too. According to statements in this thread, the old players would have been better off with lighter sticks to move the cue ball around the putting greens they played on. Now that we don't need to hit the cue ball as hard, sticks have gotten lighter. Seems like the empirical evidence doesn't match the theory.

Hu

I played with a borrowed Balabushka back in the late 60's. I was young and impressionable at the time, but found the weight/balance of the cue "memorable", it hit like no other cue I've ever played with from then on.
It had to be at least a 20oz, ebony butt, stainless joint, 4 points and allot of inlays, but my point, it was the best cue I've ever felt when it come to following the cue ball effortlessly, it did the work 'for' you. In straight pool, follow was used allot to break the rack apart. I wonder if George built his cues during this 14.1 era with the follow shot a big concern. This cue seemed to do ALL the work when whitey needed to go forward.

 

[Dakota Cues]

Thanks for all the input.

If anybody else has had some experience with improving by going from light to heavy, or heavy to light, please feel free to chime in!

 

[desmocourtney]

I fall in the lighter cue camp. Started out 40 years ago with a heavy club and found more control with a lighter wand. For me a heavy cue masks the feedback needed to finess the cue ball where it needs to go. Ideal for me is 18.25 - 18.50 balanced around 18.75 . My stroke can tolerate a 19.5 cue on a slow table especially but over that I will need time to adjust. I love a fullsplice cue for the same reasons, feel and feedback gives me confidence.

 

[SCCues]

Weight

I prefer the feel of 18.9 to 19.2 oz cues, but I play better with 19.5 to 19.9 oz cues. The lighter cues feel so good in my hand that before I realize it i'm hitting shots too hard and twisting some english shots with my follow through. When i'm using the 19.5 to 19.9 oz cues I seem to stroke smoother and more consistent and I guess it's just me, but this weight works better for my game.

James

 

[Dakota Cues]

I prefer the feel of 18.9 to 19.2 oz cues, but I play better with 19.5 to 19.9 oz cues. James

James,

I'm in the same boat. I have always liked the feel of a lighter cue, but for some reason I shoot much better with a heavier one.

I'm just wondering if it's going to be easier to learn to play better with a light cue, or just get use to playing with a heavier cue.

 

[14oneman]

My Schick, my Lucasi and my breakjump are all 19.5

 

[eldowan]

slower[/U] than the cue ball, and thus is no longer in contact with it. That's also why someone using a ligher cue needs a different grip/stroke to get the same action on the cue ball.


A heavier cue will have more momentum and "Follow through". Since it's not decelerating as much, it stays in contact with the cb longer. This also has an effect on english/draw/etc, and is why someone using a heavier cue can grip the cue lighter and have the cue's momentum aid the follow through of the stroke. Again, I'm not sure if I'm expaining this phenomenon correctly, but I hope you get my point.


In other words, the difference in what happens to the cue ball, happens after the cue goes through it, not just hits it. That's probably also why players report it's easier to do things like draw the cue ball with a heavier cue, since follow through is a major factor in that.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that 'follow through' has an effect on anything. I think that while the heavier cue may have a very slight increase in contact time with the cue ball, it is not significant enough to impart any more useful force.

If what you are saying is true, that many people report being able to get more action on a shot with a heavier cue stick, couldn't this be attributed to the heavier cue keeping the stroke straighter, thus having more of a true hit? Wouldn't the lighter cue be more susceptible to any outside interference and have an easier time of moving from the actual aiming point (even by .5mm)?

To make an extreme example (and I'm not sure my thoughts or the example below is 100% correct):

It was stated upthread that two objects approaching equal mass will have a more efficient transfer of energy.

If you accelerate both a 16 and 19 oz cue to the same speed on contact, while the heavier cue might have more force due to added weight, the lighter cue would transfer a higher percentage of energy to the cue due to the closer mass of the cue ball and stick.

Given I don't have the skill to work this out accurately, I think a case could be made that with an increased percentage of energy transferred to the cue ball, that a light stick with less total force could impart more total energy due to the effeciency gains.

 

[Lazerrus]

I like the mid range. Right at 19.0. Balance is a key depending on your stroke. You can have a lighter stroke with a heavier cue but I like the action I get off of a lighter cue when using english etc. "Not having to push the weight of the cue around" If you know what I mean. It is all about finding the cue that works for you. I am also a believer in if you shoot with any cue for a long period of time then you train yourself to that particular cue. Then adapt it to your stroke and style.

 

[Dakota Cues]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that 'follow through' has an effect on anything. I think that while the heavier cue may have a very slight increase in contact time with the cue ball, it is not significant enough to impart any more useful force.

If what you are saying is true, that many people report being able to get more action on a shot with a heavier cue stick, couldn't this be attributed to the heavier cue keeping the stroke straighter, thus having more of a true hit? Wouldn't the lighter cue be more susceptible to any outside interference and have an easier time of moving from the actual aiming point (even by .5mm)?

To make an extreme example (and I'm not sure my thoughts or the example below is 100% correct):

It was stated upthread that two objects approaching equal mass will have a more efficient transfer of energy.

If you accelerate both a 16 and 19 oz cue to the same speed on contact, while the heavier cue might have more force due to added weight, the lighter cue would transfer a higher percentage of energy to the cue due to the closer mass of the cue ball and stick.

Given I don't have the skill to work this out accurately, I think a case could be made that with an increased percentage of energy transferred to the cue ball, that a light stick with less total force could impart more total energy due to the effeciency gains.

I don't want to turn this back into a debate on physics. Here's what we already know:

Basically a lighter cue will transmit more force to an object ball by allowing the arm to move faster - this is why break cues are lighter.

A heavier cue will stay in contact more with a cueball, and thus you maximize the force generated - this is why guys like effren can spin the heck out of the cb.

 

[Dakota Cues]

It is all about finding the cue that works for you. I am also a believer in if you shoot with any cue for a long period of time then you train yourself to that particular cue. Then adapt it to your stroke and style.

I agree with this 100%. I thought of this question a while back, and decided to have a new cue made heavier than the one I had used previously used. Basically I was trying to make sure the new cue had EVERY possible advantage to it in terms of major and minor details, as I wanted to have a cue that I could use for the rest of my life.

Will this actually be the case? I hope so, but I guess time will tell!

 

[Fatboy]

when i started playing in 85 the cloth was the slow nap IPT junk, so a heavy cue seemed to help move the CB around better, by 88 we were playing on 760 which is real fast and i switched to a lighter cue in 89.


What I have noticed as a player over the years is the better I get, and i'm still improving perhaps faster now than ever before(i have no natural talent for pool) is I have better control with a lighter cue. Except when I was a banger a heavy cue did help me stroke straighter, thats not a issue at all anymore.

But whats more important than the weight is the weight distribution. Mark Tadd said something to me that made alot of sence!!!, He likes his cue to be its heaviest right when he contacts the CB so the cue goes through the ball and increases the time the tip is contacting the CB. Thats where the rubber hits the road or the magic happens.

With the proper weight disrtibution I could adjust to any weight between 18.5-21.0, the past year I have used 19.0 80% of the time. For me that means a cue thats not front or back heavy but heavy right at the point of contact where my arm is 90 degrees. I have some Gus cues that are just right and some that are butt heavy-he built alot of different hitting cues, all good just different. Its not the absolute weight its where you feel the weight in the stroke that matters.

 

[randyg]

I don't want to turn this back into a debate on physics. Here's what we already know:

Basically a lighter cue will transmit more force to an object ball by allowing the arm to move faster - this is why break cues are lighter.





I'm quite sure this is not true. The cueball leaves instantly (1000sec).

"A heavier cue will stay in contact more with a cueball, and thus you maximize the force generated"

Maybe Bob Jewett can jump in here....SPF=randyg

 

[shankster8]

when i started playing in 85 the cloth was the slow nap IPT junk, so a heavy cue seemed to help move the CB around better, by 88 we were playing on 760 which is real fast and i switched to a lighter cue in 89.


What I have noticed as a player over the years is the better I get, and i'm still improving perhaps faster now than ever before(i have no natural talent for pool) is I have better control with a lighter cue. Except when I was a banger a heavy cue did help me stroke straighter, thats not a issue at all anymore.

But whats more important than the weight is the weight distribution. Mark Tadd said something to me that made alot of sence!!!, He likes his cue to be its heaviest right when he contacts the CB so the cue goes through the ball and increases the time the tip is contacting the CB. Thats where the rubber hits the road or the magic happens.

With the proper weight disrtibution I could adjust to any weight between 18.5-21.0, the past year I have used 19.0 80% of the time. For me that means a cue thats not front or back heavy but heavy right at the point of contact where my arm is 90 degrees. I have some Gus cues that are just right and some that are butt heavy-he built alot of different hitting cues, all good just different. Its not the absolute weight its where you feel the weight in the stroke that matters.

Fatboy, you and Mark Tadd share understandings that are over my head, which I want to learn - excuse my ignorance.

First, I don't understand what you men mean by a cue being "heaviest right when he contacts the CB so the cue goes through the ball". You then say "For me that means a cue thats not front or back heavy but heavy right at the point of contact where my arm is 90 degrees."

Where are you perceiving this "heaviness"? On your bridge hand, in your grip hand, or elsewhere?

You also say "For me that means a cue thats not front or back heavy but heavy right at the point of contact where my arm is 90 degrees." And, "Its not the absolute weight its where you feel the weight in the stroke that matters."

Where is this ideal balance point you are alluding to?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Dakota Cues]

The Physics of Pocket Billiards, by Jack Koehler...

OK guys here's some answers from the book, "The Science of Pocket Billiards" by Jack Koehler on the subject of heavy vs. light cues. Jack backs up his findings with laws and experiments, not just ideas. Hopefully this will end the physics debate and we can actually get on with a discussion of why YOU prefer a heavier or lighter cue.

Now I'm not going to copy the whole 2 pages on here, but I'll cut to the chace and some good analogies. If you disagree with any part of this book, please send your emails to Jack and debate the laws of physice with him.

1. He recommends going with a cue that works best, not what feels best. A great analogy he uses is that a professional bowler would rather use a 12 lb. ball instead of a 16 lb ball, but the 12 lb. ball is not nearly as effective.

2. The weight of the cue DOES affect aim, distance the cb travels, and english imparted on it. He uses an analogy similar to my wiffle ball vs. bowling ball one, but ends up at the same point. The heavier the stick, the more work The Cue does for you. This is undisputed, regardless of whether or not you believe it's true, or understand why it's true.

3. The heavier the stick, the greater the directional control. In other words, the heavier the cue, the more accurate the aim. Again, he lists the reason why in the book.

4. A greater percentage of cue speed error is tolerable with a lighter cue, so cue ball speed control is easier with a lighter cue.

5. English is enhanced with a heavier cue. This is a double edged sword, but the results are undisputed.

I had heard a while back that it's better to use a heavy cue if you controlled the cue ball with spin, and a lighter cue if you controlled it more with speed. It might even have been in this book, but I just didn't see it.


The thing to remember, and he said this in the book as well, is that the effects of weight are small and subtle, and they can really only be detected over a period of time. I think too many people here think that going from a heavy cue to a lighter cue make a night and day difference. For some they might, but for most the difference is subtle. Also, like another poster commented, you can get use to playing with ANY cue, and it will have pro's and con's. There is a tradeoff.

Finally the best piece of advice I got after re-reading this section of the book, is part of the 1st analogy:

Go with what WORKS best, not just what FEELS best.


Like I said, the results of what Jack has written are based on the laws of physics or facts. These are NOT opinions. If you're thinking is not inline with these facts, your thinking is wrong... the facts are not.

 

[Dakota Cues]

I'm quite sure this is not true. The cueball leaves instantly (1000sec).

"A heavier cue will stay in contact more with a cueball, and thus you maximize the force generated"

Maybe Bob Jewett can jump in here....SPF=randyg

Actually it is true. There may be some miscommunication on what I meant though. I said "Force", when I meant "Energy". What I meant is backed up in Jack's book as well though.

Going back to the book "The Science of Pocket Billiards", page 61 says (Note: He's talking about draw here, but it's the same point), "A heavy stick will produce MORE english than a light stick. The light stick has a greater tendency to stop when it strikes the cue ball. A heavy stick causes it to keep driving forward. Because it drives forward, IT REMAINS IN CONTACT WITH THE CUE BALL LONGER AND THEREBY TRANSMITS MORE ENERGY RESULTING IN GREATHER BACKWARD SPIN."

 

[gpeezy]

19.5 is best for my stroke