Help!!? 5/16x14 Shaft Insert pulled out-Stripped out Wood>!

acedonkeyace

acedonkeyace

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do I have to put in a dowel plug and glue it in and then re-drill and re-tap threads and put back in the insert?
Is there an easier way?
The threads in the shaft have completely stripped out the meat of the wood.

What are my options and what will a reputable cue-man charge to do the job.

PS. I have this problem in a 1992 JOSS N-4 custom cue, this is the one with the 'JOSS CUSTOM' in gold on the butt and shaft and when a proper cue is put together, everyone always asks if the names line up?

I want the cue to tighten back together, properly with the names lining up, how is this down with out breaking the collar loose and then doing the shaft pin work and then finding out where the tightened down point of the shaft to the butt is and then re-glue the collar with the 'JOSS Custom' is.

Please help, thanks

mike 'acedonkeyace' kennedy

PS. Thanks for all the info, one more question for everyone, I think that I am going to send this cue back to Dan Janes to inspect at the Joss Homeland. This cue is 20 years old now, and if you are familar with Joss cues of this vintage, the pin in the butt section has been used so infrequently, that the black covering on the pin, that gets worn off after time and repeated assemblies and dis-assemblies, looks like a brand new pins still.

Do all of you AZ'ers feel that, if Dan inspects the cue, that he should be able to tell what happened, and if it was a materials or assembly defect, should he repair for free, or should I expect to have to pay?

You opinions, will be appreciated.
thanks
'
mike
 
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It would have to be plugged if it's stripped, then re-done. As far as lining up the names, it's done by simply facing off the end til it lines up. I always suggest to people, you send the cue to the maker first. Joss is one of the best companies you could ever deal with.
http://www.josscues.com/
 
Ace. There is always an easy way and a short cut in everything you do in life.

With cue repair, easy and fast are not usually the best policy. You choose.
I do the same job on customers cues that I would want done for myself.
It may very well take extra time but with that, you get peace of mind.
 
One way to align it up is to make a spacer that is the same as the pitch of the joint screw or a few thou thinner, but parallel. Do not make it thicker than an even amount of pitch.
Something like Delrin/acetly is good.
Place the spacer onto the cue.
Then put the threaded insert onto the handle upto the spacer.
The shaft that has been plugged and rethreaded for the insert can be tried onto the assembly. Make adjustments to the insert position untill it aligns. The insert can be trimmed or spacers added between it and the thread pitch spacer.
As the main spacer is 1 pitch thick, the cue will be in the same alignment as assembled.
You can align it to be slightly less in the direction of rotation. That way after the glue has set, if it needs trimming it will not be very much to remove.
Neil
 
I did this to fix a problem on one of my own Joss shafts for my break cue.

The wood came apart,like yours.

However,if you looked close,you could still see a clear line inside the hole in the shaft where the threads used to be. You could even screw the insert back into the shaft and feel it bottom out,until you screwed it back on the butt and the insert would pull right on out.

At that point,there was no point in trying to put the same insert back in,even after considering using a dowel to fill the hole then re-bore and tap.

The way I fixed it was pull out a chunk of brass rod I had,and custom-made an insert that was a dramatically oversized 7/16-14,which came out at .465.

Because it was the same 14 TPI as the original insert,I knew it would work,and left it sharp so it would sorta self-tap itself into the wood.

I left the outside part of the brass a little oversized,and ran it into the hole until the pilot bottomed out,NO GLUE. I then tapped it for the Joss pin after the insert was in,then turned the brass down to fit the collar on my Joss SP,chamfered the exposed pilot,and took a facing cut.

It doesn't make noise any more,and it rolls as straight as it did before. Tommy D.
 
DoubleD said:
I think the biggest issue here is why the insert came out in the first place.

My theory is that the pilot depth was deeper than the height of the insert by enough that the collar was seating well before the pilot was, thereby allowing the collar to see repeated tensile loading.

I'd make sure that was fixed when you fix the rest of the cue.

dld
Click to expand...

I'm going out on a limb here (it's a pretty stout limb) but my guess is that you're not a CM.
Nor are you knowledgeable about joint design.
Do you know of a cue where the pilot/insert and the joint collars make contact with the handle's
joint & collars at the same time? Inquiring minds want to know.

KJ
 
KJ Cues said:
I'm going out on a limb here (it's a pretty stout limb) but my guess is that you're not a CM.
Nor are you knowledgeable about joint design.
Do you know of a cue where the pilot/insert and the joint collars make contact with the handle's
joint & collars at the same time? Inquiring minds want to know.

KJ
Click to expand...

When I use a piloted joint I try to always time them out the best I can to perfect. I had an issue once where I put a flat faced shaft on a piloted butt and the insert in the shaft failed. I then again saw this on another cue that is being played with by Danny H. in which I made a spacer for. As far as I know he is still playing with it like that and it is working very well. My thoughts are that there is a lot of force created by the threads and torque. Much more than the wood and epoxy can hold if the player wrenches them together abnormally tight. Am I saying that under normal tightness it should fail. NO. However I am sure you have seen gorillas out there that think it has to be twisted until it can't move anymore including the flex of the woods. My experience on this just says that if there is some room for the insert to move that it will over time with the right person twisting.
 
KJ Cues said:
I'm going out on a limb here (it's a pretty stout limb) but my guess is that you're not a CM.
Nor are you knowledgeable about joint design.
Do you know of a cue where the pilot/insert and the joint collars make contact with the handle's
joint & collars at the same time? Inquiring minds want to know.

KJ
Click to expand...

KJ, you beat me to it. Bushka's and Szamboti, don't and they were pretty
good cuemakers.:smile:
 
KJ Cues said:
I'm going out on a limb here (it's a pretty stout limb) but my guess is that you're not a CM.
Nor are you knowledgeable about joint design.
Do you know of a cue where the pilot/insert and the joint collars make contact with the handle's
joint & collars at the same time? Inquiring minds want to know.

KJ
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. The faces of the joint need to be tight together. If the insert bottoms before the faces meet, the joint must be overtorqued before the faces can be pulled firmly together. If the faces meet first, there will still be a slight gap under the insert when the faces are firmly pulled together. As a cuemaker, you have the right to pick which you like better.
 
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Easy way?
Re-plug the hole with 1/2 20 TPI threaded plug.
Then replace the 7/16 insert.
Maybe the last one was press-fitted over shallow threads.:yikes:
 
Help

Any insert can be stripped out if you twist hard enough. Doesn't matter if the pilot bottoms out or not. We will never know for sure why it failed. Could have been cross threaded going in the first time. I have a palmer right now that the
brass insert broke off half way down inside the shaft.
 
KJ Cues said:
I'm going out on a limb here (it's a pretty stout limb) but my guess is that you're not a CM.
Nor are you knowledgeable about joint design.
Do you know of a cue where the pilot/insert and the joint collars make contact with the handle's
joint & collars at the same time? Inquiring minds want to know.

KJ
Click to expand...

Well, I am not a cue builder (thank God) but I did do several dozen house and titlist conversions in my younger day. My main goal was to make the best fit possible between the shaft and the pin. I cannot say for sure if this is right or wrong but it gave me a good feeling knowing that the pin bottomed out in the shaft at the same time the collars made contact. I also applied the same thinking when fitting the ferrule to the tenon. This involved a little pre planning but I think it helped me sell whatever I could make. I just got tired of breathing the dust and decided that casemaking was easier and cleaner.

Photo #1 shows the shaft partially installed

Photo #2 shows the shaft fully seated.

Photo #3 shows the fit of ferrule/tenon
JP.jpg

JP1.jpg

FF.jpg
 
Thank you for the pics Mr Justis. We learn so much from these threads and pics such as yours speak a thousand words.

I can only imagine what might have been if you had continued with the cues....
 
Most likely the insert can be glued back in just like it is (with a couple of modifications). Just take it to a cue repairman and see what they think. If you were local and brought it to my shop I would guess the insert could just be glued back in with super strong epoxy. Can't quote prices on here, but it should be about the price of a ferrule job.
 
Jack Justis said:
Well, I am not a cue builder (thank God) but I did do several dozen house and titlist conversions in my younger day. My main goal was to make the best fit possible between the shaft and the pin. I cannot say for sure if this is right or wrong but it gave me a good feeling knowing that the pin bottomed out in the shaft at the same time the collars made contact. I also applied the same thinking when fitting the ferrule to the tenon. This involved a little pre planning but I think it helped me sell whatever I could make. I just got tired of breathing the dust and decided that casemaking was easier and cleaner.

Good stuff Mr. Justice, except one thing, Wood moves and joint faces get dirty and in some cases because of this movement and or dirt, the cue doesn't roll straight anymore so the facing would have to be cleaned. With your method, though it seems perfect, the cue would no longer screw together, and because everyone is a cue maker today because of the Internet, SOMEONE :yikes:, would be drilling into the shaft to make the hole deeper, that could open up more issues. I can't count how many times someone on this forum has asked what they could do because their cue, no longer rolls straight and the answer given was, is and probably always will be, You got it, face it off.
To the OP:
There probably isn't any logical answer why this happened, only the shaft knows and apparently, it's not talking.
Click to expand...
 
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DoubleD said:
I taught myself how to make cues when I was 19.

When I used piloted joints, I tuned them so that the pilots hit first, then turned down the pilot until it was just shy of touching when the cue was tight with the theory that the couple of thousandths gap I'd left would close before the insert could damage the wood.

So, what is it that caused the insert to pull out? If the insert pulled out wouldn't you agree that it was probably a design flaw?

Just because everybody does it and failures are relatively rare does not mean it is a good design.

I'll go out on a limb here and say you aren't an engineer.

dld
Click to expand...

Actually, "failures are relatively rare" does constitute a good design.
Eventually, everything will wear-out and fail. How often matters.
This issue is very rare indeed. A properly installed insert, under normal conditions, should not pull out.
In this particular instance, I suspect either a bad install or bad wood. If the insert didn't turn out, I can't fault the epoxy.

"I'll go out on a limb here and say you aren't an engineer." This limb's getting a little crowded.

Actually, I did study Mech. Eng. in college. Was given several grants to do so in fact.
Then Academia interruptus set in. A little distraction by the name of the Vietnam war.
Never got the degree. No biggie, I got the education, just not the title.

So back to your piloted joint design. As it turns out, you weren't having the pilot bottoming-out at the
same time as the jnt. collars were seating. That then is a practical design.
I've written on this subject previously and don't feel the need to type it all again since our search
feature is so handy. Parts of it do speak to the topic. It starts to get interesting about post #9.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=234436

_______________________________

To Mr. Justis,

Dear God, man. I hope you didn't cut that cue apart merely to try and make a point.
With all due respect Sir and I mean that sincerely, I see the joint collars mating but neither the pin nor the pilot are bottoming-out.
There remains a gap and whether that gap is .010" or .100" makes no difference. They are not bottoming.
What you have achieved is greater side-wall contact of the pilot but not 3pt lateral contact.

As to the ferrule, I'll admit that it is very very close and given that the epoxy is filling any void(s),
all surfaces are always in contact. Therein lies the key-word: always.
The ferrule is not something you break-down after every session and expect repeatable contact when you go to play again.
It's installed and stays installed. The cue's joint in constantly being assembled and disassembled.

At the end of the day, we all do some things differently.
Your entry into this thread is appreciated.

KJ
 
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Wow, i never knew Mr. Justis built cues. Pretty cool, and with those tight tolerances, i'm sure they played pretty sporty too.
 
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