Help me run this rack
- Thread starter mthornto
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Deadon said:
Looks a little difficult to me. 10,8,2,1?? are you bumping the 1 and the 12 when shooting the 8 in the side or are you coming around the other sided to get the 8?
Then you're going to get on the 12? nine on the rail and back to your break shot?
Pinpoint cue ball control needed with some fair execution.
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Actually not that much, just a couple of stop shots and a short follow, thats the idea. Its only a stop shot from the 13 to the 7.
Stop shot and roll off the rail a little and shoot 10 straight in the corner and stop, maybe backup a hair. Shot the 8 in the side, its almost straight in, with a little follow separating the 1 and 12, by hitting the 1, making sure you hit hard enough to push the one above the 14.The cue ball will come off the 1 almost straight on the 2.
Shoot the 2 in the bottom corner, draw, as necessary to get on the 1 in the side, probably to the rail and out a little. Shoot the 1 in the side and draw back a little to shoot the 12 in the bottom corner. It should be just a short draw to get on the 9 as a key ball. If there is an angle, go to the end rail and back up. Shoot the 9 and come off the rail a little, then 4 with a little follow to get desired angle.
Really the cue ball moves very little and you only really have to hit the 1 ball. It should be easy to execute each of the shots, you can't get so far out of line that you don't have a shot of some kind. The toughest shot is the 8 in the side, which is easy to make, speed and getting the cue ball to come off the 1 just right is a little touchy, but again, the worst thing that can happen is an angle on the 2. Which means you roll to the end rail and back up to get on the 1 in the side.
Stop shot and roll off the rail a little and shoot 10 straight in the corner and stop, maybe backup a hair. Shot the 8 in the side, its almost straight in, with a little follow separating the 1 and 12, by hitting the 1, making sure you hit hard enough to push the one above the 14.The cue ball will come off the 1 almost straight on the 2.
Shoot the 2 in the bottom corner, draw, as necessary to get on the 1 in the side, probably to the rail and out a little. Shoot the 1 in the side and draw back a little to shoot the 12 in the bottom corner. It should be just a short draw to get on the 9 as a key ball. If there is an angle, go to the end rail and back up. Shoot the 9 and come off the rail a little, then 4 with a little follow to get desired angle.
Really the cue ball moves very little and you only really have to hit the 1 ball. It should be easy to execute each of the shots, you can't get so far out of line that you don't have a shot of some kind. The toughest shot is the 8 in the side, which is easy to make, speed and getting the cue ball to come off the 1 just right is a little touchy, but again, the worst thing that can happen is an angle on the 2. Which means you roll to the end rail and back up to get on the 1 in the side.
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Deadon,
I like your solution, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on about it which very slightly turned me off to it. I think I've found it - there is sort of a "trip around the world" feel to this out. I feel like until the middle/end of the pattern (once you get to the 8 ball), you're going from one area of the table to the next, really only pocketing one ball from each.
That's not necessarily a bad thing... and I really like how your pattern is very logical - there's not a lot of difficult cueball movement at all.
It wouldn't be my choice, simply because of what I mentioned in the first paragraph, but there is an elegance in the logic behind it, which I do like.
- Steve
I like your solution, but there was something I couldn't put my finger on about it which very slightly turned me off to it. I think I've found it - there is sort of a "trip around the world" feel to this out. I feel like until the middle/end of the pattern (once you get to the 8 ball), you're going from one area of the table to the next, really only pocketing one ball from each.
That's not necessarily a bad thing... and I really like how your pattern is very logical - there's not a lot of difficult cueball movement at all.
It wouldn't be my choice, simply because of what I mentioned in the first paragraph, but there is an elegance in the logic behind it, which I do like.
- Steve
Steve Lipsky said:
Thanks Steve;
Your are correct in that it has that around the world feel. Which is how I approached it. Cleaning everything from the rails and near the pockets, except the key 9 ball, then deal with the middle of the table. I felt that once all those areas were clear, and they were very easily executed shots, I could concentrate on the only problem, the 1 ball. If I got out of line, there would almost certainly be an alternative shot, and or approach. Probably only hit the rail 1 or 2 times in the whole run, if I was lucky. But we all know how that works out.
Mike
Deadon said:
Mike,
One suggestion I have is to reclassify balls as either "annoying" or "problems". As an example, in this rack, the 13 is annoying; it's not a problem.
It has been my experience that solving the problems before the annoyances has great benefits. You see in the pattern I chose that I get to the problems as soon as possible. There are many benefits to this, not the least of which is that if you get slightly out of line when dealing with a problem, you'll by definition have more balls left on the table which can bail you out and let you try again.
By the way, I have been doing this "annoying"/"problem" classification for some time, but I've never put my thoughts into words. This has been a great thread, guys.
- Steve
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Steve Lipsky said:
I enjoy threads such as this because there are as many solutions as there are responses. I learn by seeing how others are tackling the problem, especially those players that think the exact opposite way that I do. Whether we agree or disagree is not half as important as the fact that we can all learn something from each other by seeing things from somebody else's thought process/problem solving process.
Deadon said:
but that's the way it's laid out.
that was my solution as well, but i prefered to take out the 10 and break out the 2/8 while i still had the backup 3. and it's not as if the "around the world" is around the WHOLE table,,,it's half the table, and you're spiraling into the center, which is a valid pattern. and the whole time, the table is balanced, not one-sided.
taking out the 7-3 is ok, but then there's no balls on that side of the table any longer. i like that the "around the world" leaves the 7(well, my way anyway), which btw, is a good 3rd ball because it's a stop shot to the 4.
all in all, this table is so open, you could cowboy this rack and still come away with a good break.
Steve Lipsky said:
You wrote about this maybe a year or so ago, and it hit me at a point when I was ready to hear it. I knew to get problems out of the way early, but I had a habit of removing too many open balls before getting to the problem. I think the way you put it was that once every ball has a pocket to go to THEN you can start shooting balls in. This mindset has been very helpful.
Thanks again!
dwhite
Steve Lipsky said:
Steve;
Sounds like a good idea. It adds mental structure, which can never hurt. I suppose I do this subconsciously anyway, but thinking about it could never hurt. I will work on that.
In this rack, the annoyances to me would be the balls blocking the pockets and maybe the 13. The 1 ball was the only real problem and I decided to do it the way I did because I wanted the bottom and side pockets open so when I hit it, I had a pocket. If I hit it earlier, as some suggest, cue ball position and the trajectory of it, the 1, and the 12, in some offered solutions, would be more difficult to predict. Perhaps resulting in no pocket for the balls or another problem created.
My preference is also to solve problems early, but I want to be sure to move the balls into their own space and give them a friendly pocket.
Great thoughts, appreciate the gymnastics.
Mike
BTW..
Bruin and Blackjack;
What I am referring to above is why I wouldn't do what you would.
Going into the 12 from the 7 can do too many things. Yes, one is to move the 1 for a break ball. But if you hit the right side of the 12, which is most likely, you create a cluster with the 8 and 2. If you hit it full or to the left, you are shooting your next shot over a ball, almost straight in. Not an impossible shot, but best avoided when you can.
If you hit it harder to avoid shooting over a ball, the 1 goes to the area of the 9, perhaps even on the rail. Hence you have another problem.
If I was to hit them from the 7, I would split the 8 and 2, making the 8 a new break ball. The 1 would then go in the corner after the 14, so it would no longer be a problem. Splitting the balls would be safe, as there are balls to shoot and you would be able to cue easily. This would be a delicate shot, but is doable. The balls would all be open. There are many ways to get it done from there. The 1, 12 or 14 could be used as key balls with the 5 setting you up for a break with the 8. Just another way.
Bruin and Blackjack;
What I am referring to above is why I wouldn't do what you would.
Going into the 12 from the 7 can do too many things. Yes, one is to move the 1 for a break ball. But if you hit the right side of the 12, which is most likely, you create a cluster with the 8 and 2. If you hit it full or to the left, you are shooting your next shot over a ball, almost straight in. Not an impossible shot, but best avoided when you can.
If you hit it harder to avoid shooting over a ball, the 1 goes to the area of the 9, perhaps even on the rail. Hence you have another problem.
If I was to hit them from the 7, I would split the 8 and 2, making the 8 a new break ball. The 1 would then go in the corner after the 14, so it would no longer be a problem. Splitting the balls would be safe, as there are balls to shoot and you would be able to cue easily. This would be a delicate shot, but is doable. The balls would all be open. There are many ways to get it done from there. The 1, 12 or 14 could be used as key balls with the 5 setting you up for a break with the 8. Just another way.
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Deadon said:
errrrr,,, i was agreeing with blackjack's recognition of the cluster but my approach was actually similiar to yours if you look near the top of page 2. the only difference is that i chose to pop the 10 and into the 2/8 with the 3 still available as insurance, and HOPING to leave the 7 as the 3rd ball to the stop shot 4 setup.
This rack is all about 1 question, do you like any of the 10 as a break ball?
If yes then ALL the balls can be picked off without moving anything. Once the 3 and 11 have been removed the 2 and 8 can go and then the 1 and 12 will go in the opposite corner using the 14 for easy position. I do like this type of break shot but I suspect the 10 ball maybe a little too central to be ideal.
Therefore as an alternative I would move the 3 and then the 11 because I really like the ATTACK ANGLE from the 10 into the cluster early on (probably 4th shot). I think this shot played at slowish speed would create several break balls and also has many insurance balls if played at the right speed.
If yes then ALL the balls can be picked off without moving anything. Once the 3 and 11 have been removed the 2 and 8 can go and then the 1 and 12 will go in the opposite corner using the 14 for easy position. I do like this type of break shot but I suspect the 10 ball maybe a little too central to be ideal.
Therefore as an alternative I would move the 3 and then the 11 because I really like the ATTACK ANGLE from the 10 into the cluster early on (probably 4th shot). I think this shot played at slowish speed would create several break balls and also has many insurance balls if played at the right speed.
mthornto said:
I'm late to this party, but here's my stab:
5 ball first to get on the three balls to the right corner pocket (by the way, there's no way I'd shoot the 7 first
Then I'd get the three balls by the pocket to clear that side and open a path for the 10
9
15
11
Now I'd go back and get the 7. Depending on the angle I get for the 10, I'm then trying to bump the 2 or 8 into break shot position or bump the 12 into the 14 for a break shot. The 3 and 4 are the insurance balls, but also, by going relatively gently into the balls there a fair chance that if I don't manufacture a break ball on my first attempt, these balls are in close enough proximity to one another that I'll get a second opportunity to make a break ball.
It's tough to say what happens from there, but as soon as I could I'd go get the 13 and finish up with the last few balls all in the rack area.
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa said:I'm late to this party, but here's my stab:
5 ball first to get on the three balls to the right corner pocket (by the way, there's no way I'd shoot the 7 first
Then I'd get the three balls by the pocket to clear that side and open a path for the 10
9
15
11
Now I'd go back and get the 7. Depending on the angle I get for the 10, I'm then trying to bump the 2 or 8 into break shot position or bump the 12 into the 14 for a break shot. The 3 and 4 are the insurance balls, but also, by going relatively gently into the balls there a fair chance that if I don't manufacture a break ball on my first attempt, these balls are in close enough proximity to one another that I'll get a second opportunity to make a break ball.
It's tough to say what happens from there, but as soon as I could I'd go get the 13 and finish up with the last few balls all in the rack area.
Lou Figueroa
Good idea. I would only be concerned about your next shot and position after hitting the 8 or 2, especially if hit soft, otherwise its looks like it should work fine. In an earlier post I suggested the possibility of splitting the 8/2, but that was from the 7. The 10 will move either of those balls much better without some of the problems using the 7. The backside is also clean, so pushing the balls that direction isn't a prolem. If the 8 moves out right, everything will go in a pocket and you have a very good break ball, if it doesn't you may have to do a little more work, but not much.
Very nice solution.
Mike
TheOne said:
Sometimes we get too "pureist" when we mentalize what we would "like" to do. You are correct in thinking that the 10 is possible break ball. If the 9 goes by the 15, I would save it to get on the 10 because I prefer the long side of the break from below, but it is not necessary. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is good. Sometimes we learn from looking at things a little differently.
supergreenman said:
Hi,
Just a friendly note that might be helpful to you
From your original layout, if you press "K" and then "N" (both capital letters) you will then get this as the result:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AATm4Bcps4...HBjH3IcQs4JCBc3KcQq4LCww1Mbjt4NEcO3OcYu3PaRN@
If you then press "D" it will save the result onto page2.
(the idea of having multiple pages came from Steve Lipsky. he gave me another great idea the other day for me to work on)
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Deadon said:
a few nice things about a below the rack breakshot,,,1...there's almost ALWAYS one available. i have never had to manufacture a below-the-rack, whereas there are times when one must do so for a traditional break,,,2...a setup ball is easy if not right there because all one eventually has to do is roll the cb down to the rail,,,3...the breakshot will always be short with no reaching no fuss no muss. don't have to worry about left hand-right hand issues...4,,,in setting this up, there is more leeway for error than any other breakshot i know.
the only reason i don't used it more is because of the stigma of tradition.
bruin70 said:
well said, I think it's a sexy shot when played well with running side bring the cb round 3 rails into the centre of the table for a feast of shots.
This rack brings up a good point though, all thes balls are in makeable positions without having to break into anything. What is the order of precedence, take a below rack break shot and connect the dots without doing any hard work or change your whole rack agenda because it's not perfect?
