Helper cues in trickshots. Not a fan.

JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
So we all have seen trick shot shows where someone puts a cue along the rail to make the pocket unmissable. The ball can miss the pocket by half a table and still go in when it hits the cue and is guided down the rail into the pocket.

I have never been impressed by shots that use helper cues.

Does it seem to anyone else that the use of them has gotten way out of hand?

I have seen Mike Massey plenty in my life and he rarely if ever used helper cues for his shots. I want to say never but I haven't seen any trick shot exhibition of his in 15 years a a full show. Other than the trick shot magic shows I mean.

But recently I saw a promo for Florian Kohler's new video that was shot in China and the use of helper cues was rampant throughout. I am as big a fan of Florian and how hard he has worked as anyone else. Maybe I am just jaded or maybe the video is primarily aimed at the larger public audience and not the old school diehard fans like me. When he has gotten on the table and can match Semih Sayginer and match Mike Massey shot for shot with no props I was super impressed. Those are the shots which seem to be super human.

But it's not just Florian but it seems like a lot of trick shot artists today who seem to be doing what I would call "bling" shots using a lot of props and helper cues to insure that the object balls find pockets.

Anyone else feel that the use of helper cues has gotten way out of hand and that using them diminishes the shot being demonstrated?
 
JB Cases said:
So we all have seen trick shot shows where someone puts a cue along the rail to make the pocket unmissable. The ball can miss the pocket by half a table and still go in when it hits the cue and is guided down the rail into the pocket.

I have never been impressed by shots that use helper cues.

Does it seem to anyone else that the use of them has gotten way out of hand?

I have seen Mike Massey plenty in my life and he rarely if ever used helper cues for his shots. I want to say never but I haven't seen any trick shot exhibition of his in 15 years a a full show. Other than the trick shot magic shows I mean.

But recently I saw a promo for Florian Kohler's new video that was shot in China and the use of helper cues was rampant throughout. I am as big a fan of Florian and how hard he has worked as anyone else. Maybe I am just jaded or maybe the video is primarily aimed at the larger public audience and not the old school diehard fans like me. When he has gotten on the table and can match Semih Sayginer and match Mike Massey shot for shot with no props I was super impressed. Those are the shots which seem to be super human.

But it's not just Florian but it seems like a lot of trick shot artists today who seem to be doing what I would call "bling" shots using a lot of props and helper cues to insure that the object balls find pockets.

Anyone else feel that the use of helper cues has gotten way out of hand and that using them diminishes the shot being demonstrated?
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I don't like it either those shots should just be left out of the exhibition. I saw Jimmy Caras do several exhibitions and although most of what he did was the standard shots he never missed them. He would set them up in a few seconds and they went every time. He would shoot wing shots and never miss.
 
Hey, if. Main stream USA likes It, and it gets TV time, let it be. The best press we can get for our little sport, thus, no reason to be picky about props for a purely entertainment piece. Plus, it lets you be more inventive in the various trick shots you can pull off.....
 
It takes away from the presentation for pool players, because we're a jaded bunch, but I think it helps for the rest of the population. I'd say 90% or better of the shots I've seen that benefit from the helper cues along rails had multiple steps along the way.
Take an imaginary ridiculous shot, something like a 5 rail masse that doesn't grab until after the 5th rail, then reverses course and goes back the same 5 rails to sink a ball in the pocket by where the cue ball started out. That's impressive no matter what, but if the cue ball fails to contact the hanging ball in the final pocket everyone is going to think it was a failed shot.
The crowd could literally see a shot that defies physics, gravity, maybe a couple laws of thermodynamics... and if the ball doesn't drop at the end they'll maybe give courtesy applause. Maybe.
Another example would be if John Barton, case maker extraordinaire, put on a straight pool exhibition and ran 525 balls. Impressive to those who know what it takes, but the rest of the world would read the headline "Barton Fails to Break Record."
 
The whole trick shot genre jumped the shark for me a few years back when I shot photos for the Braun's of one of their ESPN shows. I had never really paid attention to it all before but after I saw these guys bring just truck loads of shit with them to the table I knew it was gonna be bad.

They were actually building things on the table out of triangles and other crap to jump balls through. Then you have the whole just shoot balls straight in a hole thing while one is going around the table. The best was when it took five minutes to set something up and neither guy could make it. It all just looked absurd to me.

I could watch Semih Sayginer's stuff for hours but this new school prop based stuff isnt for me. Its like watching Carrot Top shoot pool.

All that said if it gets peoples attention its a good thing but I seriously doubt it actually transforms people into playing the game. Not sure how many people watch a long drive contest and go take up golf. End of the day good luck to them though.
 
JB Cases said:
So we all have seen trick shot shows where someone puts a cue along the rail to make the pocket unmissable. The ball can miss the pocket by half a table and still go in when it hits the cue and is guided down the rail into the pocket.

I have never been impressed by shots that use helper cues.

Does it seem to anyone else that the use of them has gotten way out of hand?

I have seen Mike Massey plenty in my life and he rarely if ever used helper cues for his shots. I want to say never but I haven't seen any trick shot exhibition of his in 15 years a a full show. Other than the trick shot magic shows I mean.

But recently I saw a promo for Florian Kohler's new video that was shot in China and the use of helper cues was rampant throughout. I am as big a fan of Florian and how hard he has worked as anyone else. Maybe I am just jaded or maybe the video is primarily aimed at the larger public audience and not the old school diehard fans like me. When he has gotten on the table and can match Semih Sayginer and match Mike Massey shot for shot with no props I was super impressed. Those are the shots which seem to be super human.

But it's not just Florian but it seems like a lot of trick shot artists today who seem to be doing what I would call "bling" shots using a lot of props and helper cues to insure that the object balls find pockets.

Anyone else feel that the use of helper cues has gotten way out of hand and that using them diminishes the shot being demonstrated?
Click to expand...

I haven't seen the video but the only time I think their ok is if their used elevated used as a bridge not on the table as a funnel ,, he certainly doesn't need them he's got mad skills



1
 
To my memory, a lot of it changed when Dr Cue started competing on ESPN. First one that I saw (there) pull out a Masse cue or a jump cue. Massey did it all with his regular cues.
 
I've always found it too kind of take away from the trick make it not as cool kinda like when they use the rack don't get me wrong I injoy watching and some of the crazy neat stuff they do blows my mind. But I get what ur saying.
 
Pete said:
To my memory, a lot of it changed when Dr Cue started competing on ESPN. First one that I saw (there) pull out a Masse cue or a jump cue. Massey did it all with his regular cues.
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Masse or jump cues are ok IMO. Afterall those are allowed in regular game formats under WPA rules. What I can't get down with are all the props that Justin mentioned, or using multiple jump cues at once, or my least favorite: the shots where the guy has to shoot balls straight in the hole with the cue in a certain time limit. Back to the original point though I would agree with the OP that cues placed under the rails to help balls go in kind of cheapens it. I realize they do it for expediency and I realize that it helps with ridiculous masse shots, but it still takes something away in my opinion. What can I say though I'm not really the primary consumer of that content.
 
Pete said:
To my memory, a lot of it changed when Dr Cue started competing on ESPN. First one that I saw (there) pull out a Masse cue or a jump cue. Massey did it all with his regular cues.
Click to expand...

This isn't true...
 
JCIN said:
The whole trick shot genre jumped the shark for me a few years back when I shot photos for the Braun's of one of their ESPN shows. I had never really paid attention to it all before but after I saw these guys bring just truck loads of shit with them to the table I knew it was gonna be bad.

They were actually building things on the table out of triangles and other crap to jump balls through. Then you have the whole just shoot balls straight in a hole thing while one is going around the table. The best was when it took five minutes to set something up and neither guy could make it. It all just looked absurd to me.

I could watch Semih Sayginer's stuff for hours but this new school prop based stuff isnt for me. Its like watching Carrot Top shoot pool.

All that said if it gets peoples attention its a good thing but I seriously doubt it actually transforms people into playing the game. Not sure how many people watch a long drive contest and go take up golf. End of the day good luck to them though.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%!

I can watch those "gimmick" acts for about 10 minutes and I've had my fill.

When they take all day to set up little ramps and crap for the balls to roll over and around it is like Putt Putt and isn't even pool.

I could watch REAL trick shots all day...wing balls, multiple rail banks, masse, etc.

Aloha.
 
JCIN said:
The whole trick shot genre jumped the shark for me a few years back when I shot photos for the Braun's of one of their ESPN shows. I had never really paid attention to it all before but after I saw these guys bring just truck loads of shit with them to the table I knew it was gonna be bad.

They were actually building things on the table out of triangles and other crap to jump balls through. Then you have the whole just shoot balls straight in a hole thing while one is going around the table. The best was when it took five minutes to set something up and neither guy could make it. It all just looked absurd to me.

I could watch Semih Sayginer's stuff for hours but this new school prop based stuff isnt for me. Its like watching Carrot Top shoot pool.

All that said if it gets peoples attention its a good thing but I seriously doubt it actually transforms people into playing the game. Not sure how many people watch a long drive contest and go take up golf. End of the day good luck to them though.
Click to expand...

No but plenty of kids have gone from putt putt to golf ,, and this kid is very marketable and he brings the cool into pool that certainly can't be a bad thing


1
 
Yes but I haven't been impressed by "Trick shot", (aka gimmicky book diagramed prop shots requiring minimal stroke quality and only basic knowledge of the 'spot' and a handfull of gift shop props....or let's repeat this jump shot class 101 shot 80 times in a row and call it a shot)........shows in probably 20 years.

:-)
 
I want to REPEAT that I love Florian and what he has accomplished. This wasn't intended to be about him only that the most recetn video inspired the rant.

I have seen Florian in person on my table do amazing stuff with NO PROPS and just a borrowed cue. He has the skills to pay the bills all the way around.

I guess all I am saying is that I would rather see more of that than the cues-as-funnels versions of the shots.

I get it that some of the shots are ridiculously complicated in the setup and execution, requiring precise timing but again, not as impressive as well done stroke shot or masse with no props and no helper cues.

Interestingly enough one of my current customers is an Artistic Billiards player from the Netherlands. He sent me his list of cues to build a case for. 6 cues and 18 shafts. They don't use props, just different cues. All the shots in Artistic Billiards are stroke shots, none of them are gimmick shots.

THIS is badass - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osS-UsB5jsc

And so is this - Florian and Mike doing Artistic Billiard shots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDZRoqi0o2U

Honestly though, I think Florian could build a show that might work in Vegas.
 
JB Cases said:
I want to REPEAT that I love Florian and what he has accomplished. This wasn't intended to be about him only that the most recetn video inspired the rant.

I have seen Florian in person on my table do amazing stuff with NO PROPS and just a borrowed cue. He has the skills to pay the bills all the way around.

I guess all I am saying is that I would rather see more of that than the cues-as-funnels versions of the shots.

I get it that some of the shots are ridiculously complicated in the setup and execution, requiring precise timing but again, not as impressive as well done stroke shot or masse with no props and no helper cues.

Interestingly enough one of my current customers is an Artistic Billiards player from the Netherlands. He sent me his list of cues to build a case for. 6 cues and 18 shafts. They don't use props, just different cues. All the shots in Artistic Billiards are stroke shots, none of them are gimmick shots.

THIS is badass - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osS-UsB5jsc

And so is this - Florian and Mike doing Artistic Billiard shots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDZRoqi0o2U

Honestly though, I think Florian could build a show that might work in Vegas.
Click to expand...

He had a show in Vegas when I was there at the APA nationals a couple yrs ago ,, I think he's now sponsored by them ,, I have said this many times he's very marketable,,, future is very bright for this kid


1
 
In general I do not like trick shots at all. But I have watched some of Florians recent stuff and it is damn impressive.

And I agree with you JB, the use of props , except the hot chicks :D takes away from the experience for me.
 
At one time, I could actually watch a bit of the Mohegan Sun Trick Shot Champeenship.

Got old real quick with swinging racks, stacked cues etc.

I like watching Mike, Florian and Semih.

Semih does one with the table covered in slender glasses. The ball goes to several rails and follows the trail between the glasses, never coming close to one.

Those kind of props are cool for one or 2 tricks but one wouldn't want to watch an entire show made up of props etc, no matter who is doing the shooting.

I have one of Earls teaching DVDs. At the end he does a series of tricks. Now those are real tricks.
 
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