heres a thought

[SCCues]

John,

I think you have summed up a plan to make men's pro pool move up in the sports world. It's going in too many different small directions right now in the US. Just think if the DCC and the US Open didn't exist what you would have left.....Ouch!

I wish something big will happen to help men's pool and one promising thing is Mike Janis and the Viking Tour. Mike is trying hard and I wish him well.

James

 

[john schmidt]

hi

to say the ipt was well funded and still failed i dont think is spot on.the ipt was not well heeled.otherwise the top players would still be playing on tv,making 1,000,000 a year.they would have sponsors etc.diamond tables could not make tables fast enough to keep up with all the people who thought they could quit their job and play propool.all you need is tv and big money period.we always say if so and so happens the players and sponsors will be in good shape.then they will be on tv making big money.all you have to do is put pool on live tv for huge money and the world will watch guaranteed.just like snooker or golf.you think if first in golf paid 10,000 and was on tv 5 times a year the golfers would be rich.of course not.tiger did not get famous because he was rich.he got rich because he was famous meaning on tv all the time playing for big money.if they showed tiger everyday on tv but all he won was 10,000 when he won a tourney people would not look up to him.they would say anybody can do that or it would pay more and hes a loser because he only made 34,000 last year.

 

[MexPoolPlyr]

Good call John.

With big money, potential sponsers open their eyes. Look at Nascar. Who in their right mind enjoys watching cars go round and round?? Besides the fact people are waiting for them to crash, its the $$$.

The IPT wasnt that far off. They had those great looking girls in audience and as "ring girls" (sex does sell). TV's, great venues, etc... Trudeau had the right idea. All we needed was for there to be online betting for it to really take off. Gaming is huge with StanJames in the UK. Look at snooker. They bet on matches like crazy. Betting gives the sponsors AND general public a reason to watch and support that certain sport.

Well, perhaps in my time ill get to see poolplayers make what they deserve. Hopefully... See ya in Vegas John. pze. Oscar

 

[JAM]

Good call John.

With big money, potential sponsers open their eyes. Look at Nascar. Who in their right mind enjoys watching cars go round and round?? Besides the fact people are waiting for them to crash, its the $$$.

The IPT wasnt that far off. They had those great looking girls in audience and as "ring girls" (sex does sell). TV's, great venues, etc... Trudeau had the right idea. All we needed was for there to be online betting for it to really take off. Gaming is huge with StanJames in the UK. Look at snooker. They bet on matches like crazy. Betting gives the sponsors AND general public a reason to watch and support that certain sport.

Well, perhaps in my time ill get to see poolplayers make what they deserve. Hopefully... See ya in Vegas John. pze. Oscar

I agree, Oscar. What is curious to me is when the IPT did have it multi-million-dollar events, why weren't they shown on mainstream American TV?

Did the IPT drop the ball and not have the right promoter getting the word out there to sports TV stations?

I find it hard to believe that nobody took an interest. If there was ever a chance to showcase pool with big payouts, it was the IPT.

Which makes me wonder if higher payouts is the change agent for pool.

JAM

 

[KBP]

Sort of sounds like the PBT (Pro Billiards Tour) of many many years ago. You would have to decide how to rank the players, get sponsorship, have a board for decisions, set up all the packages, rooms and all the other things along with a points system so that they could move up. The PBT had it set up to where you had to rank to play in the US Open. Tim and I were involved in that at the lower level running the tournaments during the late 80's and early 90's. Tim worked his way up to Developing Pro by 1995 and gained enough points to get a spot in the Open. He had fun even tho he was two and out. It was the prestige of earning that spot. Players, promoters and tours worked well togeter then and it was fun. That is where we met The Miz, Buddy Hall, Efren, Johnny, Rudolpho and many other greats from that time. We had a lot of fun and traveled from Miami to Chatanooga to play and see these people. Loved every minute of it. This was a great idea then and still is if we could get it together to get it done. Tim and I would love to a part for something like that. I have to put people out of the amateur event every year for them to have no place to go if they aren't quit ready for the pros but still better than an average amateur.
Let me know
Kay
kbpromotions@tds.net

 

[av84fun]

to say the ipt was well funded and still failed i dont think is spot on.the ipt was not well heeled.otherwise the top players would still be playing on tv,making 1,000,000 a year.they would have sponsors etc.diamond tables could not make tables fast enough to keep up with all the people who thought they could quit their job and play propool.all you need is tv and big money period.we always say if so and so happens the players and sponsors will be in good shape.then they will be on tv making big money.all you have to do is put pool on live tv for huge money and the world will watch guaranteed.just like snooker or golf.you think if first in golf paid 10,000 and was on tv 5 times a year the golfers would be rich.of course not.tiger did not get famous because he was rich.he got rich because he was famous meaning on tv all the time playing for big money.if they showed tiger everyday on tv but all he won was 10,000 when he won a tourney people would not look up to him.they would say anybody can do that or it would pay more and hes a loser because he only made 34,000 last year.

Exactly John. The IPT failed for two primary reasons.

1. KT put the cart WAY before the horse in offering up more prize money than the market would bear. And by that I mean you could post $10 million 1st place money for a coin flipping contest and no one would care.

KT dug his own grave by making the COST of the event FAR exceed what any combination of TV ads and product sales could possibly have covered.

2. KT has such a HORRIBLE reputation as a convicted felon, fraud artist and purveyor of illegally advertised snake oil products that none of the MAJOR advertisers wanted anything to do with him, so his TV "window" never opened. And ironically enough, I personally think that he was genuinely surprised by that.

I think that he is SO delusional, that he actually thought that since he can con the elderly and sick people of the world into buying his worthless Natural Cures...that he could con BRUNSWICK or BUDWISER (etc.) into associating their names, brands and reputations with him...and pay big money to do so.

But Ooooops! is all that can be said about that. (I don't see any display ads on his web site from any such entities).

Regards,
Jim

 

[MikeJanis]

We can't even get regional tours to work together right now to make sure that they don't schedule on top of each other.
We have a LLLOOONNNGGGG way to go before we can get everyone together working towards what we should all be working towards.

Mike

You stating the above in red is like me saying I can not believe insidepoolmag.com and azbilliards.com can't find a way to work together so we only have to go to one web site to get all our news and info.....

Mike, its not necessarily a regional tour cooperation problem with the schedule. Its that people are trying to start tours left and right and compete with the existing tour in their regions. That's the problem.

For years I have worked very closely with the Joss, Tiger and SE tours so we did not have these problems. Then all of a sudden, other tours started to spring up left and right and it created a problem. In fact, it not only created the problem it has been a BIG detriment to our sport and the room owners that have regional tour events in their rooms along with creating frustration and confusion among the players.

 

[av84fun]

Good call John.

With big money, potential sponsers open their eyes. Look at Nascar. Who in their right mind enjoys watching cars go round and round?? Besides the fact people are waiting for them to crash, its the $$$.

The IPT wasnt that far off. They had those great looking girls in audience and as "ring girls" (sex does sell). TV's, great venues, etc... Trudeau had the right idea. All we needed was for there to be online betting for it to really take off. Gaming is huge with StanJames in the UK. Look at snooker. They bet on matches like crazy. Betting gives the sponsors AND general public a reason to watch and support that certain sport.

Well, perhaps in my time ill get to see poolplayers make what they deserve. Hopefully... See ya in Vegas John. pze. Oscar

You make a GREAT point. The American policies/laws on gambling are STUPID.

Here...it is fine with the governments (state and Federal) to allow lottery gambling where the odds against winning 1st prized are about 140 miilion to 1...and is fine for them to LIE about the prize money!

(when you collect over 20 years the money is worth about half of what they advertise!!!)

And here in Tennessee at least, it is fine to tell us that the lottery money goes to education when, in fact, on this very day...there is FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS in the state lottery trust fund that has NOT been provided to the education system.

You are RIGHT that if gambling on pool matches was LICENSED AND REGULATED then tens of millions of people would tune in to watch the events LIVE.

BUT...there is one small problem. America is not the U.K. I am a PROUD American but a realistic one too. U.K. cops don't carry guns. If that was the law here, there would be about 4 cops left in America with a comgined IQ of about 12.

If huge money was bet on pool matches here, you know as well as I do that a LOT of matches would get dumped.

Maybe that happens in U.K snooker matches too. I don't know one way or the other...but I doubt it. Here, I would GUARANTEE it...UNLESS every player had to take a polygraph after each match and where the match would be deamed a "push" if one player flunked.

Hell, I got dumped by a roadie whose name everyone here would know for a stinking $3 grand!!!

(-:

 

[av84fun]

You stating the above in red is like me saying I can not believe insidepoolmag.com and azbilliards.com can't find a way to work together so we only have to go to one web site to get all our news and info.....

Mike, its not necessarily a regional tour cooperation problem with the schedule. Its that people are trying to start tours left and right and compete with the existing tour in their regions. That's the problem.

For years I have worked very closely with the Joss, Tiger and SE tours so we did not have these problems. Then all of a sudden, other tours started to spring up left and right and it created a problem. In fact, it not only created the problem it has been a BIG detriment to our sport and the room owners that have regional tour events in their rooms along with creating frustration and confusion among the players.

Mike, I admire greatly the HARD work you have performed over the years...I really do...but I have to disagree with you.

In a free market economy....ALL competition is good at the end of the day.

There is only ONE reason why there are so many tours and that is that the existing ones...as hard as they might try...are not providing a sufficient sum of money so that the players can make a living after travel expenses.

It's almost as simple as that.

The other dimension is that since there is no true MAJOR LEAGUE tour, the top pros have become more inclined to compete in the regional events which is analagous to PGA Touring pros entering Nike Tour events (if they could....and whatever that tour is called these days).

So, if a pro sees that Archer, Reyes, SVB, JS and several others are playing in a Tour X even with say, 5th place prize money of $1,500 and there is another tour event that doesn't have so many big guns where 1st place pays $3000.00 and is CLOSER to where they live...THAT is where they are going to play.

Until the prize money is sufficient to provide a reasonable return to a large enough number of players so that they can make a living AFTER travel expenes, then numerous regional events and occasional major Opens will be the structure of the industry.

No mystery...just simple economics.

Regards,
Jim

 

[roosterman]

The main problem with pool tournaments is that the majority of the people think if they have a subpar perfomance they should get paid for it.There's simply not enough money in tournaments to pay 25% of the field,if they pay 10% of the field it would help alot.

 

[Luxury]

what i mean is i dont want to try and travel to 40 tourneys a year that are 2 thousand added.also dont want one tourney thats 400,000 added once a year.we need about 10 tourneys that are 50,000 -100,000 added.that way your traveling costs are not through the roof.

John, You are an American pool hero. If you came on here and posted where you were going to play I bet someone would love to host you at their house and drive you to the tournament. They get a free lesson and get to pick your brain about pool. Heck I bet most guys would have a pool table at their house as well. If it were me I'd have meals provided as well. Now all you have is the airfare expense. Just a thought.

 

[MikeJanis]

Mike, I admire greatly the HARD work you have performed over the years...I really do...but I have to disagree with you.

In a free market economy....ALL competition is good at the end of the day.

There is only ONE reason why there are so many tours and that is that the existing ones...as hard as they might try...are not providing a sufficient sum of money so that the players can make a living after travel expenses.

It's almost as simple as that.

The other dimension is that since there is no true MAJOR LEAGUE tour, the top pros have become more inclined to compete in the regional events which is analagous to PGA Touring pros entering Nike Tour events (if they could....and whatever that tour is called these days).

So, if a pro sees that Archer, Reyes, SVB, JS and several others are playing in a Tour X even with say, 5th place prize money of $1,500 and there is another tour event that doesn't have so many big guns where 1st place pays $3000.00 and is CLOSER to where they live...THAT is where they are going to play.

Until the prize money is sufficient to provide a reasonable return to a large enough number of players so that they can make a living AFTER travel expenes, then numerous regional events and occasional major Opens will be the structure of the industry.

No mystery...just simple economics.

Regards,
Jim

I'm pretty sure you missed the point and the fundamental understanding of my post as it pertains to the regional tours.

On the other hand, you nailed it. The regional tours that operate in the same regions do compete with each other head-2-head. This inturn is good for the players and possibly the room owners if it drives the cost down or prize funds up.

But, unfortunately the effect is quite the opposite. Now the limited players we (the regional tours) have is split so the prize funds are lower for the players along with participation lower in the events which effects the tour operators pocket and the room owners pocket.

The tour operators make less money from the players due to less participation.

The tours charge the players more because we have to cover expenses.

The tours charge the room owners more for the same reason as the players.

The players pay more and then win less prize money because of lower turnouts in events.

The rooms make less money on events because the turnout is lower.

This type of competition overall do to the intricate nature of the amount of pool players in a particular region has been a detriment to all instead of a good open market oppertunity.

However, if you noticed, we (The Viking Tour) has doubled our added monies into events, given the room owners more sponsorship products added numerous programs for the players and I made less money as a business owner. But hey, our participation is about double than our competitors + our sponsorship is about 10X more for the room owners so we had a little leeway.

In the end, It's not worth it to me to operate the tour if these conditions persist and get worse or to the room owners to hold the events.


Re: the suffecient prize money. This whole thing boils down to that + if the industry sponsorship is chopped up 50 different ways with all the different regional tours it's not going to get any better.

 

[Scaramouche]

As Seen From Outside

It comes down to work ethic, self responsibility, and maturity. Every single day, every player should be out there doing their best to promote the game of pool. 90% of the players aren't doing that.

American male pool players have a bizarre sense of entitlement. "Money me."
But most dress like slobs, mumble, cannot put together three coherent sentences, and would never cooperate in mutual self interest. They look and sound unprofessional. And it is beneath them to learn anything from mere women pool players who are obviously inferior creatures.

European pros speak good English even when it is not there mother tongue and can make cogent comments when they are interviewed or in the commentary box.

IMO

 

[Jim Kuykendall]

to say the ipt was well funded and still failed i dont think is spot on.the ipt was not well heeled.otherwise the top players would still be playing on tv,making 1,000,000 a year.they would have sponsors etc.diamond tables could not make tables fast enough to keep up with all the people who thought they could quit their job and play propool.all you need is tv and big money period.we always say if so and so happens the players and sponsors will be in good shape.then they will be on tv making big money.all you have to do is put pool on live tv for huge money and the world will watch guaranteed.just like snooker or golf.you think if first in golf paid 10,000 and was on tv 5 times a year the golfers would be rich.of course not.tiger did not get famous because he was rich.he got rich because he was famous meaning on tv all the time playing for big money.if they showed tiger everyday on tv but all he won was 10,000 when he won a tourney people would not look up to him.they would say anybody can do that or it would pay more and hes a loser because he only made 34,000 last year.

John, you are all over it. Who can live on $34,000 a year with expenses? Even after expenses that's nothin' to get excited about. Tough decision. Die like Wimpy with $12 in your pocket or make a living doing something else until pool pays.

 

[Luxury]

Why don't more pool players get with sugarmommys? I think the real problem is lack of classy women in pool halls. lol

 

[Fatboy]

What I could never understand, is we have so many independently wealthy people that attend all the pro level tournaments every year, and we know for a fact that a few of them are multimillionaires.

I personally gotta say.. If I won the lottery for 15 million+.. (After taxes) I would hire Jay or Mike Janis (if they were willing to be hired) to design, and run a series of tournaments, giving the pros a number of tournaments to go to with a good payout.

I'd take a million or two for myself, and the other millions would earn about 1.2 to 1.5 million a year, from investments. I would take that money, find the biggest pool halls in different parts of the country, and add 30K per tournament for about 15-20 tournaments, and add 150K to a season finale.

I would coordinate my schedule with other big tournaments in the U.S and overseas. This type of setup, I think, would provide the pros with MORE than enough for the top 30-40 players to make a decent living.

Heck, I might even consider making requirements that you must retain residence in the U.S. for a certain number of months out of the year to participate in the tour.

Going back to my intial point.. We all have heard stories of pool players coming into ridiculous money like this.. Either through business or lottery, or gambling in Vegas.. And then what?

I understand they are free to spend their money however they want. I also understand that some DO sponsor some big added money in a couple tournaments. I just find it unusual that no pool player has ever made enough money to set up some sort of foundation that provides for added money to keep pro tournament/regional events going long term.

I know it would be one of my first priorities if I ever came into millions, after setting up a MODEST nest egg for myself. Pool has basically been my self identity since I was 18, and I would want to give back to the best players, so they can continue plying their trade.

Keep in mind, this is a WILDLY optimistic plan. Even a few million set aside could sponsor 7-10 tournaments per year, with GOOD added money, which would GREATLY improve the lot of some of America's pros.

I guess none of the millionaire fans of the game loves the game enough to do that.

Hmmmppppfhhh.

Russ

I said the same thing too, but when it happens to you things change. Your prioritys, responsibilitys, access to other things etc are all different and pool isnt what it was before you had $$$. I speak from my own personal experience. I came back to pool to sharpen up my edge not to organize things, hell I have enough headaches with biz. Even hireing someone like Mike-a very good idea dosent take you out of the loop 100%. Those other millions will require your attention. Having $$$ is alot of work, litterly. now being mega-rich like $500,000,000 or more I dont know, I know people with that much $$$ on a personal level some with much more, but I dont know how much they have to work. But with $50,000,000 you got your hands full.

 

[ericdraven]

people always talk about all the various tours getting together and forming one big huge tour but that's asking a lot.

but actually if they were to all put on one big individual tournament, just as a one off, maybe that would be feasible? just as a taster of what could be.

but thinking about it surely a big tournament would be achieveable just as a one off thing? not a full blown tour. just one tournament. it would be cool.

agreed . to much time and stuff out of personal control to create a full blown tour but tournament would rock

 

[Russ Chewning]

I said the same thing too, but when it happens to you things change. Your prioritys, responsibilitys, access to other things etc are all different and pool isnt what it was before you had $$$.

I can see having to move to a different neighborhood out of necessity. I can see having to have a personal guard to protect you from people who know you have money. I can see having to have a licensed and bonded driver to drive you around to protect you from lawsuits should you get into an accident.

Beyond that, I can't really see money changing me that much. Right here and now I can say 100%, that I would never have a car that costs above $60,000.00. The "status" of being rich does not attract me. It is simply the ability to pursue my interests, and give to others that would attract me.

I've seen some of those shows that film how big lottery winners are doing a few years later. One guy was showing off some art pieces that cost an average of $30,000-$50,000 apiece, and to be quite honest, it was all gaudy, and did not compliment his home decor at all. I am sure his neighbors that had had money for years saw him as unrefined and nouveau riche.

I can tell you EXACTLY what I would do with $50,000,000. I would find a very safe investment that brought me 5% or better, and I would put $45,000,000 into it. The other $5,000,000 would be used to relocate and take care of the other necessities I detailed above.

Part of the interest off the $45,000,000 would be used as I said before, to fund a pro tour, and as far as the rest of the interest money, I would probably find people in my day to day life I believed deserved a break, and I would make that happen for them.

That's just who I am. I am not into acquisition as a means to an end. And I am not making judgements really against those who see the need to give to pool only as a "sound investment". It's just that I feel a little disappointment that there aren't any people out there with money who are of the same mindset as I am.

Russ

 

[av84fun]

I'm pretty sure you missed the point and the fundamental understanding of my post as it pertains to the regional tours.
On the other hand, you nailed it. The regional tours that operate in the same regions do compete with each other head-2-head. This inturn is good for the players and possibly the room owners if it drives the cost down or prize funds up.

But, unfortunately the effect is quite the opposite. Now the limited players we (the regional tours) have is split so the prize funds are lower for the players along with participation lower in the events which effects the tour operators pocket and the room owners pocket.

The tour operators make less money from the players due to less participation.

The tours charge the players more because we have to cover expenses.

The tours charge the room owners more for the same reason as the players.

The players pay more and then win less prize money because of lower turnouts in events.

The rooms make less money on events because the turnout is lower.

This type of competition overall do to the intricate nature of the amount of pool players in a particular region has been a detriment to all instead of a good open market oppertunity.

However, if you noticed, we (The Viking Tour) has doubled our added monies into events, given the room owners more sponsorship products added numerous programs for the players and I made less money as a business owner. But hey, our participation is about double than our competitors + our sponsorship is about 10X more for the room owners so we had a little leeway.

In the end, It's not worth it to me to operate the tour if these conditions persist and get worse or to the room owners to hold the events.


Re: the suffecient prize money. This whole thing boils down to that + if the industry sponsorship is chopped up 50 different ways with all the different regional tours it's not going to get any better.

Mike, with great respect for what you are doing and with a full understanding of the challenges of entrepreneurship...no, I didn't misunderstand the essence of your posts which you stated quite clearly as copied below:

"Mike, its not necessarily a regional tour cooperation problem with the schedule. Its that people are trying to start tours left and right and compete with the existing tour in their regions. That's the problem.

For years I have worked very closely with the Joss, Tiger and SE tours so we did not have these problems. Then all of a sudden, other tours started to spring up left and right and it created a problem. In fact, it not only created the problem it has been a BIG detriment to our sport and the room owners that have regional tour events in their rooms along with creating frustration and confusion among the players."
__________________

Clearly, you suggest that competition from the regional tours that are starting up "left and right" is damaging to the industry.

I understand your point...I just don't agree with it. Unrestricted competition in a free enterprise system ALWAYS presents problems to many competitors (ask AOL...or Pam Am or American Motors or Kodak for that matter).

But just as certainly, that competition ALWAYS results in a favorable outcome to the citizens of the free market economy.

The most elegant aspect of nature is survival of the fittest but it is also the most cruel.

The free enterprise system is just slightly less elegant and just slightly less cruel.

You will succeed and I genuinely hope you do...only if you provide the economic incentive sufficient to convince a player to abandon an event 50 miles from his home to attend yours, 1500 miles from his home.

Until you can do that, then the free market system will provide you with serious competition until such time as you can.

And it seems to me that you are doing all that you can to create just such economic incentives...more than any other single person that I am aware of... and have associated yourself with some very formidible "partners."

I wish you well as the marketplace unfolds.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I can see having to move to a different neighborhood out of necessity. I can see having to have a personal guard to protect you from people who know you have money. I can see having to have a licensed and bonded driver to drive you around to protect you from lawsuits should you get into an accident.

Beyond that, I can't really see money changing me that much. Right here and now I can say 100%, that I would never have a car that costs above $60,000.00. The "status" of being rich does not attract me. It is simply the ability to pursue my interests, and give to others that would attract me.

I've seen some of those shows that film how big lottery winners are doing a few years later. One guy was showing off some art pieces that cost an average of $30,000-$50,000 apiece, and to be quite honest, it was all gaudy, and did not compliment his home decor at all. I am sure his neighbors that had had money for years saw him as unrefined and nouveau riche.

I can tell you EXACTLY what I would do with $50,000,000. I would find a very safe investment that brought me 5% or better, and I would put $45,000,000 into it. The other $5,000,000 would be used to relocate and take care of the other necessities I detailed above.

Part of the interest off the $45,000,000 would be used as I said before, to fund a pro tour, and as far as the rest of the interest money, I would probably find people in my day to day life I believed deserved a break, and I would make that happen for them.

That's just who I am. I am not into acquisition as a means to an end. And I am not making judgements really against those who see the need to give to pool only as a "sound investment". It's just that I feel a little disappointment that there aren't any people out there with money who are of the same mindset as I am.

Russ

GREAT POST SIR! I have been a trusted adviser to seriously wealthy people for 35 years and I can tell you for a FACT, that the majority of them live truly miserable lives...fraught with family hatreds, serious security issues and the fact that they have to live with the TRUTH that most of the people around them are there only to get a piece of the action and that most of their relatives are just waiting...quite anxiously in many cases...for them to die.

All of which is why Warren Buffett recently gave most of his away...and anyone who thinks that many of his closest relatives were happy about that is very seriously mistaken.

Super post!
Regards,
Jim