Here's why pool is dying....

[dardusm]

The only casino games where an individual player can have an advantage are poker and blackjack.

Poker is not a game against the house so that's irrelevant although you have to exceed the skill of the other players to overcome the house rake which can be done. That's common knowledge and I know people who play poker for a living.

As I mentioned upthread an individual player or surreptitious team can gain an advantage in blackjack but it is recognized without much difficulty and you're shown the door or sometimes dragged to the door.

The only way an individual wins at any of the other casino games is by enjoying a totally random run of variation that temporarily goes against the house. No one can count on that for a regular living or even for regular breakfast and dinner. Even if you're a counter in blackjack you'd better have enough bank to endure some very punishing swings in variation.

Yeah, lots of books are written and the gambling addicts waste their money on those, too.

Sports betting including horses and dogs can have a possible positive expectation but just like in poker you have to be better than the other bettors by enough to beat the 10% (sports betting) or 15% (para mutual betting) vig.

Another positive expectation can be video poker by playing the right machines (depends on payout schedule), using perfect strategy, along with comps/cash back to get a slight edge.

Other than that, the rest of the casino games are negative expectation. Casinos make a lot of money of would be gambling pros.

 

[cueandcushion]

Hard to get kids interested at a young age when most of the places making money on pool are bars. Most states don't allow kids in bars. Most pool players prefer to drink and play on 7 footers. Then you have to get "kids" hooked when they are 21. Pretty difficult at that point. And yes I know there are always exceptions in certain places kids can go into bars with parents...but who wants mom and dad hanging over them all the time?

 

[cueandcushion]

I agree. I've never quite understood why owners charge by the player and not the table. If you have four players on one table and are charged by player, each player is getting one half the play for the same fee as they would with two players. So folks tend to play two at a time. If you charge a flat table rate, you WILL GET MORE PLAYERS PER TABLE!...and you will sell more food and drinks!
In my previous post I forgot to mention a third critical reason for pool "dying": National organizations that profit immensely from fees and give little back to the game.

One reason is that so many serious players want to practice ALONE all the time. Its fairly common for me to have 12 people playing and renting 8 tables. You chase away all the serious players when you charge a price that reflects your rent/ cost for the square footage one table takes up. And you then have guys on AZ broadcasting to the world how you are making trillions of dollars @ $10/hour for a table and for everyone to boycott you. Your example above is why many places charge such a high rate for the FIRST player and then just a little bit for each additional player. This encourages big crowds on a single table and high bar tabs. But it discourages your room being for serious players. Hard to cater to both and be successful.

 

[Oregonmeds]

How many of those "other sports" are played in bars?


Read his entire post. He makes some good points.

Sorry that guy didn't "get it". He also doesn't get how public transportation works in this country where in most places it stops long before most tournaments apa and bca are over, and that it doesn't even exist in many areas or how impossible it would be for the average person to always pay for a cab. I'd have to walk a mile ea way just to take a bus, and they stop at 11pm when many tournaments go well past that. Also there's a big line between drunk driving and social drinking, but the law has turned that into zero tolerance. Candice Leightner the founder of AA left the organization when they pushed to lower the legal limit the third time well into social drinking levels citing that it was unjust and unnecessary and unfair to the decent law abiding people. She wanted to stop DRUNK drivers, the dangerous fools that kill people who are well over the .12 limit we started with. AA wanted to stay alive and keep raking in the money, and now they're going for prohibition again practically. If they ever just up and said goal acheived, we're done now, they'd loose billions. It's big business not just for them but for all the law enforcement and courts and lawyers and cab companies etc etc.

I'm sure the smoking bans blanketing the country have a lot to do with it too, I've heard many room owners folded directly after local non-smoking legislation and openly say that is what killed their business, but he'll probably come back saying that's bullshit too that smoking and drinking and pool never went together. In case you aren't aware most apa and bca leagues are out of bars and played mostly by people who drink and smoke to some degree or another. Most people get their start in bars in a social drinking setting. There are at best a couple pool halls left per town, but there always have been bars on practically every corner. Bars have most of the pool tables open to the public and the vast majority of the leagues and local tournaments.

 

[Barioni Cues]

Aman!

yeah the same reason my rangerover is dying,i dont have enough money to keep up with it!ok in seriousness pool is going to make a comeback slow but surely,well if iam wrong it sounds good anyway,GODBLESS pool and all its players!

Aman. Well Put!!:thumbup:

 

[Barioni Cues]

Well put Jay!

Pool is not dying! It may be diminishing in popularity in the USA, at least the poolroom version is. But Pool is a growing sport worldwide, huge in China right now, with many millions enjoying the game daily and new players coming along at a rapid pace. Pool is not going away anytime soon. It remains a wonderful activity for singles, couples or entire families to enjoy. :thumbup2:

Pool went through some serious doldrums in this country in the 1950's, only to come back strong in the 60's and thereafter. Each succeeding generation must learn about the game all over again. And it's up to all of us to introduce it to them.

Well put Jay!

 

[C.Milian]

Testing one....two.....testing....testing.....one...........twoooo....tap..tap.....

Hey World! 8ball takes the most skills to play!

 

[The Chinchilla]

The video game was the end of pool in the US. As to why pool is doing so well in Asia; it's because they are good at it, and there are a lot of strong players for youngsters to look up to and emulate. US used to be like this before leagues came along, maybe leagues didn't cause this, but if they didn't it is certainly a very big coincidence. In short, leagues and video games ended US pool. Video games will keep it dead for good too unfortunately.

 

[Oregonmeds]

One of the aspects to consider when talking about bars with pool tables is that stable adults do not want to get into action games there. Even for small stakes.
They are afraid that some ex-con or some biker will follow them out to their car, beat hell out of them, and take all the money back including more. Furthermore, the bathrooms are usually filthy..the food (if you can call it that) is as unhealthy as it can be and prepared in very unsanitary conditions.
Its not the cost of playing that keeps people away...its that same old stigma thats been around since the 50's...(and I started playing in 1954 when I was 16)
Or maybe trouble will happen inside also. People have jobs, homes, and kids...they do not want to be in those dumps and have to carry a gun in case there is a shootout.
As for the kids.....they have too many other things to be involved in. Pool is not much of a girl catcher when there are REAL athletics going on all around them.
Pool is, always has been, and always will be.....a dirty game patronized primarily by "pool room bums".
Just my opinions and observations from a lifetime of watching it all. I also owned a room back when it was 10 cents a cue and we had big pockets so the games went faster for bigger turnover and more games played...thus giving more money to the house.
Of course the rack boys would steal you blind but this was a given and we had a certain amount of built in "leakage"
Trying to run a room like that in these days of high rent, governments and their regulations, would be insane.

Sounds like you have a low regard for most of the people here and most of your old clientele. I would expect others to have that "dirty game" "pool room bums" opinions but not people on here but whatever... I guess you must be a snobby snooker player feeling that your sport is so different? Pool used to also be considered a gentlemans game just like snooker, in case you didn't know. The only people I think of pool room bums are hustlers who rip people off and con them for a living, they're a tiny minority of the game.

As for real sports attracting more girls... Most people don't play athletic sports, anyone young or old or fat or even in a wheelchair can play pool and actually be part of a competitive sport. And once again there you go with your low opinion...

And the guy that said video games? I don't think so, asia is video game headquarters of the world. Most are made there and much much cheaper than here, yet pool is seriously taking off there.

 

[Oregonmeds]

Sounds to me like you wasted some of your life around the wrong people, maybe in the wrong neighborhoods and didn't have a productive balance in your life at the time. Pool had little to do with the problem.

I don't hang out in places like you describe period, nor do I play pool with those kinds of people any longer, but I've had many years of fun playing league and local small dollar weekly fun tournaments.
Here there are upscale and medium and lower class places, whatever crowd you feel comfortable in you can find a place for it I live in a big city. I've played them all, but mostly enjoy the happy medium. Upscale being too snobby and boring, and low being uncomfortably trashy to the point of being annoying.

We have pool rooms and bars that each cater to at all levels.

Most people on their death bed don't regret the time in their lives the spent on leisure activities they enjoyed. Maybe they'll regret being in the wrong crowd, or maybe not having worked to have a better career that they enjoyed or with more money, but leisure and fun shouldn't be regretted.

I also never play for money, period, so never have issue with anyone with brass nuckles knives or guns. The highest dollar tournaments I played are $100 range to the winner, just fun stuff. I played twice a week at most and had a good career as well.

Pool is just a game when your average person is knocking around balls with little experience and control, but it's definately a sport when you're playing a seriously competitive game where ultra fine muscle memory and control, years of discipline and training, even breathing and heartrate and nerves and thoughts needs control in any of the higher levels of play. You never did need to be an "athlete" to play a great game of pool, but it takes years of physical and mental training to really get good at it, thus it's a sport. There are many sports in the olympics that fall into the same category, not really highly athletic but still sports because of their high precision physical aspect.

 

[ironman]

Went to a local room last night.
6 nice Diamond's, few people playing.
One guy might play some $20 sets if I give up the lock....
Funsies 1P going on, no action, can't even get on the table.
Went downstairs since Monday is 1/2 No Limit Hold Em night, won $260 in like 2 hours and was never even close to losing money. Playing ultra tight and getting paid everytime I made a hand.
Any of these guys that are dumping big money into the poker room, wouldn't play in a $1 ball ring game if you held a gun to their head!

Pool...talent required to win...you know if you can play or not!

Poker... no talent required to win a big pot, talent required to win long-term, everyone THINKS they can play!

have you watched local 9 ball tournaments lately? Anyone can win those too' Races to 2-3-4-5- alternating break? i see little difference in that and holdem.
one foul ball in hand?? There are guys running out who can't make a ball in the ocean. But that is what pool playing has become.
these days playing 9 ball if someone hits a long bank they want it on ESPN!!

 

[Ghosst]

…but it seems to me that it's the gambling aspect itself is whats turns people away.
It's intimidating for a novice to see people playing for money and knowing that if you want to be a better player, you eventually are going to be playing these guys - wich means giving them your money.

Or it could be the continued insistence on here that gambling on pool is the same as playing pool.

Pool went through some serious doldrums in this country in the 1950's, only to come back strong in the 60's and thereafter. Each succeeding generation must learn about the game all over again. And it's up to all of us to introduce it to them.

All good and valid points, and I apologize for bringing up an “older” thread, however I am catching up; I’ve been away for a bit. Kim’s point and the associated discussion of other countries is a good one. I’m from Canada (as are a few other AZBers) and pool isn’t quite the same here as in the US. Hustling and pool still go hand-in-hand in a lot of people’s minds to this day, and that has a very negative connotation to it.

Before the gamblers get up in arms, that’s not what I’m talking about whatsoever. I’ve no problem with gambling and some of the matches I’ve seen for some decent cash are great to watch. It’s the idea that gambling or hustling is required that puts a bad name out there. It doesn’t even have to happen; it’s the expectation that you can’t play a game with friends without someone coming over to pester you about money.

My quick story: Sunday night I was out playing with friends, and not even playing terribly well at the time (for some reason I felt the need to add right side to every shot) and I hear, “oh yeah he’s a pool shark, I’ve seen him before.” It caught my ear but not my attention. By the 4th time he said it the two girls this guy was with started apologizing for their play to me. Now maybe it was flattering that they were worried about my opinion of their play, but the “be careful, he’s a hustler” crap was unwarranted. That I can play pool without miscues does not mean I want to steal your money.

My other quick story: Thursday before last (yeah, way back when in the 50’s) a couple asked me for some help with their game. I gave them some quick pointers about stance and stroke and then I told them they could swap tables and play next to us. Suddenly it was like I pulled out a knife; they were scared and said, “No thanks, we’re just here to have fun.” Somehow, I’d become some guy trying to trick them into betting their life savings away? The young lad came up later and said he’d play a little next time I saw him but the whole time he kept his hand over his wallet as if the money was magically going to float away. Why ask me for help if you’re frightened I’m going to hustle you?

These aren’t the only stories, but obviously, I’m not going to retell all of them. But it happens. A lot. Maybe I’m frightening because I shave my head, maybe it’s that I wear collared shirts. Dress pants? I polish my shoes, that’s some scary stuff right there. I still agree with pool’s origins, and liken it to golf; you don’t play wearing ripped jeans and your best t-shirt. Collars or stay off the course. But I’m Canadian, maybe in the US you can get onto a golf course dressed like that. In pool, I bring the same expectation of myself, if I can’t gather myself up enough to look half-decent, why bother going out at all?

For leagues; I’ve never seen a bigger peen contest than Wednesday night’s Valley league (it’s all we have, don’t tell me to join BCA; if it was here, I would). The worst part is these people think they are the best players around. I’ve been tempted but then I get hassled for side-bets. No one will play a game without, “something on the line”. The last time I got into that, I took a bet for a single shot for 1K, won it, and the little leech ran away with, “I’m too drunk, doesn’t count.” Now he retells the story as if the bet didn’t occur. I hold my tongue when I see him although I’ve been tempted to remind him he owes me money.

Finally (thank your deity of choice), Jay is on the money. We have to introduce people to pool. But if you introduce them to, “here’s how to hustle”, don’t expect them to bring the image up whatsoever.

 

[Tristan]

These aren’t the only stories, but obviously, I’m not going to retell all of them.

No, please, tell us some more stories about how awesome you are. LMAO

 

[Ghosst]

No, please, tell us some more stories about how awesome you are.

That's the weird part ... I don't think I'm super-special, notable, or anything else. I own a few cues, so what? But why does it always come down to either, "he's a hustler", or "well, if you won't play for money, then you're no good"?

PS: I've missed the random hostiles on the forum ... someone always has to try to cut others down while evading the point of the post.

 

[cplayermagic]

That's the weird part ... I don't think I'm super-special, notable, or anything else. I own a few cues, so what? But why does it always come down to either, "he's a hustler", or "well, if you won't play for money, then you're no good"?

PS: I've missed the random hostiles on the forum ... someone always has to try to cut others down while evading the point of the post.

Your previous post caught my eye, but not my attention. It took a while to read it; I had to clean myself of throw-up induced by your gratuitous self-glorification.

The OP claimed that, by nature, pool makes the player's deficiencies more obvious and said player is well-aware of them. I think this is the topic to be discussed. Maybe you shouldn't hijack this thread with silly anecdotes, but stick to the topic. Unfortunately you're too good (making $1k/shot) to concern yourself with what I think.

My quick story: I brought up a similar subject a long time ago. You should educate yourself on the matter before joining adults in conversation.

My other quick story: your thug appearance intimidates others.

If you came up to me I'd probably fabricate some reason to keep you away from my table, too..

These aren’t the only stories, but obviously, I’m not going to retell all of them. But it happens. A lot.

 

[Tristan]

I don't think I'm super-special, notable, or anything else..

...except for a clean-shaven, well-dressed, classier-than-thou Canadian pool ambassador.

PS: I've missed the random hostiles on the forum ... someone always has to try to cut others down while evading the point of the post.

I disagree, I think I addressed the point of your post (how awesome you are) pretty well by drawing ironic attention to your obnoxious vanity.

You have action if you ever want to throw on some ripped jeans and a tee shirt, and come down south to Texas. You name the game. After all, we've learned from your previous post that you're the easiest sucker to air-barrel north of the border.

I do agree with you about one thing, though. You should definately not introduce beginners to pool by telling them "this i how you hustle," because you clearly have no idea.

:smile:

 

[phretless]

Back to the original topic

It is sad that there is a decline in cue sports, but I think it has more to do with the direction that sport has taken, than the image associated with the sport.

People tend to use sports as an outlet, its just something to do while their socializing. They go out, shoot a few games and hang out with their friends. This is what make the sport enjoyable for the average person. Sure it is always fun to have a little competition and feels good to win every once in a while, but if you don't have the social element, the evening seems incomplete. Even as you progress, that need is still an important part of the game.

If you look back through the history of the sport and it's various games, most games required significantly more time to play and there were various multi-player games. As the sport has become televised, viewers attention spans have gradually decreased, thus there is greater need to have games that are faster paced in order to retain viewers attention (ratings) and these faster games conveniently fit in between commercials. This fast paced approach to the sport significantly impacts the level of enjoyment especially for beginners. I rarely play eight or nine ball because of this. I would much rather play one of a dozen other games and if it takes 30 minutes to an hour per game, so be it. Not to say that seeing a 147 isn't grand, but even that takes a bit of time.

I see more and more smaller tables and think smaller tables = more tables per square foot = higher profit margins. Maybe my thoughts are misguided, but I have had the pleasure of playing with a group of gentlemen who are 30 to 40 years my senior and have learned a lot about life and a little about this sport. I can't imagine much of that happening around a 7' table. I'll stick to the older games on the bigger tables and maybe I will be able to maintain the thing that made the sport something more than a couple minute game for a few bucks.

 

[ironman]

Or it could be the continued insistence on here that gambling on pool is the same as playing pool.

I don't see anywhere that the OP wanted to play pool so badly that he just played pool. No, what I read was that he wanted to gamble so badly that he gave up on pool.

If all you want is to gamble, then the modern world has loads of ways much easier to get that rush than playing pool. If you want to play the game of pool though, because you enjoy the game, then you'll play the game and maybe even encourage a few others to enjoy it, too.

it is a new world and a new attitude towards the game. things have changed drasticly just in the last 10-15 years. The new world has taken over for the most part and the old world doesn't like it and is moving on.
in the days past if one wondered into the pool room suggesting to play for fun, everyone rolled their eyes and just walked away. i guess this has changed as just Thursday night a kid asked me to play for air and really became irate when I refused. he thought playing for air was going to prove something, and I could have cared less.
I think the old world has little respect for the new world and vice versa. Even here most of the old timers have moved on getting tired and bored with the flames and arguments.
Some just don't want to gamble and can't handle it. That is life and it doesn't make them bad in any way at all. On the other hand the gamble is the reason to play. i used to believe the latter were the majority but I have changed my thinking on that. Either way, it is sad as pool is headed south and quickly!