Hey old schoolers! when playing with an LD shaft....

deanoc said:
i tried one of those new stle shafts today and i hit a few firm shots from a mid range and missed shot after shot.i find it hard to believe that they reduce the deflection at all or anywhere near as good as my deano.i am not selling so this is not advertizement.

i also prefer traditional blades on my golf clubs,because i think they are easier to hit.metal woods ,yes..cavity back no.

i have played both games for years and i believe all of the talk is hype.am i alone in this

dean
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so, blades, and regular pool shafts are the easier way to go?......nah!

I still take out my Wilson Staff blades when I'm feeling nostalgic.....or playing a sub 6500 yard layout,.... but my Pings, or Hogan Edge will take me lower ANY day!.....you can't miss a blade by too much, but I can skull or toe my Hogans and still be putting...:)
 
Practice, Time, and gained experience are all that is necessary when Spinning the cue ball using any shaft, there is no easy way for most people. For me personally, I think that the same results can be achieved using any straight shaft that is at least 12.5mm or larger. Below 12.5mm due to flexibility issues most people will not be able to maintain the control needed when spinning the cue ball.

With any shaft I can make shots consistently using inside English or with any other type of English with any shaft that meets the above requirements. I am not a Pro-player, or even a Short Stop, but I certainly believe that no secret answer exists in the form of shaft that will magically make anyone make certain shots without Practice, Practice and more Practice.

After reading through the posts of this thread many things become very obvious to me personally. First, many people do not realize that a persons mechanics will effect throw and deflection as much as a Low Deflection shaft. In fact most people never truly reach their potential were Stroke is concerned, because they do not realize how important it is and what can be achieved by those who master it.

For me personally, I do not have to focus on allowing for any English that I choose to use. The allowance is built right into my stroke and right into my sight picture and it is automatic. My subconscious mind makes the necessary adjustment through hand and eye coordination and also through my stroke. This was not achieved with any shaft, with any secret, or by reading any book, it was achieved by teaching myself how to aim, and by building muscle memory through practice, and practice, and more practice.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, this is how things work for me!!:)

Have a nice Christmas Everyone.
 
manwon said:
Practice, Time, and gained experience are all that is necessary when Spinning the cue ball using any shaft, there is no easy way for most people. For me personally, I think that the same results can be achieved using any straight shaft that is at least 12.5mm or larger. Below 12.5mm due to flexibility issues most people will not be able to maintain the control needed when spinning the cue ball.

With any shaft I can make shots consistently using inside English or with any other type of English with any shaft that meets the above requirements. I am not a Pro-player, or even a Short Stop, but I certainly believe that no secret answer exists in the form of shaft that will magically make anyone make certain shots without Practice, Practice and more Practice.

After reading through the posts of this thread many things become very obvious to me personally. First, many people do not realize that a persons mechanics will effect throw and deflection as much as a Low Deflection shaft. In fact most people never truly reach their potential were Stroke is concerned, because they do not realize how important it is and what can be achieved by those who master it.

For me personally, I do not have to focus on allowing for any English that I choose to use. The allowance is built right into my stroke and right into my sight picture and it is automatic. My subconscious mind makes the necessary adjustment through hand and eye coordination and also through my stroke. This was not achieved with any shaft, with any secret, or by reading any book, it was achieved by teaching myself how to aim, and by building muscle memory through practice, and practice, and more practice.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, this is how things work for me!!:)

Have a nice Christmas Everyone.
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So what are you trying to say? Anyone that uses a LD shaft also believes in Santa? I don't recall anyone making any claims that LD shafts are magic wands. So let me ask you this. If you shoot a shot using english and miss it, what do you attribute it to? It can't be deflection or swerve, or throw because all that is automatic for you, right? Maybe you don't miss, I don't know. But I think it's wrong to suggest that LD shafts are not an improvement over conventional shafts. I'm sure all the high-end cue owners that made the switch would agree.
 
:thumbup:
Big C said:
So what are you trying to say? Anyone that uses a LD shaft also believes in Santa? I don't recall anyone making any claims that LD shafts are magic wands. So let me ask you this. If you shoot a shot using english and miss it, what do you attribute it to? It can't be deflection or swerve, or throw because all that is automatic for you, right? Maybe you don't miss, I don't know. But I think it's wrong to suggest that LD shafts are not an improvement over conventional shafts. I'm sure all the high-end cue owners that made the switch would agree.
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So what are you trying to say? Anyone that uses a LD shaft also believes in Santa?

I don't know what they believe, my above comments are very clear, and to compress all I said above is very simple, I can do anything you do with a LD Shaft, with a none LD Shaft, thats what I am trying to say.
In addition, for those who can't most of their problems are with their individual technique, IE, Stroke, Hand and Eye Coordination, Aiming method, and their personal ability.;)

So let me ask you this. If you shoot a shot using English and miss it, what do you attribute it to? It can't be deflection or swerve, or throw because all that is automatic for you, right?

If I miss a shot, and I mean any shot it has nothing to due with the shaft I am using, and it has everything to do with my stroke, my follow through, and my aim. People adjust their stroke to allow for deflection and throw in the period of a few games to fit any cue they are using if they understand how these things effect their game in the first place.
Swerve and deflection are something anyone can naturally over come with practice. I mean either you have a good stroke or you don't. If you have a bad stroke, you most likely have poor follow through, and you are not hit the cue ball firm, which only increases the problems above. Glancing blows to the cue ball with weak follow through or a lack of follow through are what intensify deflection and throw.

But I think it's wrong to suggest that LD shafts are not an improvement over conventional shafts. I'm sure all the high-end cue owners that made the switch would agree

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and it is people with your opinion who continue to come into my retail store buying LD Shafts. I will offer my opinion and then sell them as many as they want, it just means more profit and less work for me. I also know many many High end cue owners because I also deal in high end cues, some like the LD Shaft, and some don't it is all personal preference and nothing else. Oh and by the way, I also build cues and make custom shafts, and this I can tell you, I can take any non-LD shaft and modify it to make it LD, now what do you think of that. I can also do it far cheaper than you would ever beleive!!;) Now that is some funny shit isn't it!!!!!!:thumbup:
 
manwon said:
:thumbup:

So what are you trying to say? Anyone that uses a LD shaft also believes in Santa?

I don't know what they believe, my above comments are very clear, and to compress all I said above is very simple, I can do anything you do with a LD Shaft, with a none LD Shaft, thats what I am trying to say.
In addition, for those who can't most of their problems are with their individual technique, IE, Stroke, Hand and Eye Coordination, Aiming method, and their personal ability.;)

So let me ask you this. If you shoot a shot using English and miss it, what do you attribute it to? It can't be deflection or swerve, or throw because all that is automatic for you, right?

If I miss a shot, and I mean any shot it has nothing to due with the shaft I am using, and it has everything to do with my stroke, my follow through, and my aim. People adjust their stroke to allow for deflection and throw in the period of a few games to fit any cue they are using if they understand how these things effect their game in the first place.
Swerve and deflection are something anyone can naturally over come with practice. I mean either you have a good stroke or you don't. If you have a bad stroke, you most likely have poor follow through, and you are not hit the cue ball firm, which only increases the problems above. Glancing blows to the cue ball with weak follow through or a lack of follow through are what intensify deflection and throw.

But I think it's wrong to suggest that LD shafts are not an improvement over conventional shafts. I'm sure all the high-end cue owners that made the switch would agree

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and it is people with your opinion who continue to come into my retail store buying LD Shafts. I will offer my opinion and then sell them as many as they want, it just means more profit and less work for me. I also know many many High end cue owners because I also deal in high end cues, some like the LD Shaft, and some don't it is all personal preference and nothing else. Oh and by the way, I also build cues and make custom shafts, and this I can tell you, I can take any non-LD shaft and modify it to make it LD, now what do you think of that. I can also do it far cheaper than you would ever beleive!!;) Now that is some funny shit isn't it!!!!!!:thumbup:
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I too can do the same things with a conventional shaft vs. a LD shaft. The fact is that the LD shaft does it better and more consistently. That's not my opinion. That's a fact. There's a funny line from an SNL skit that I like to draw a parallel comparing a conventional shaft to a LD shat. "I put my pants on just like the rest of you...one leg at a time. Except once my pants are on, I make gold records". -Bruce Dickenson-
 
Big C said:
I too can do the same things with a conventional shaft vs. a LD shaft. The fact is that the LD shaft does it better and more consistently. That's not my opinion. That's a fact. There's a funny line from an SNL skit that I like to draw a parallel comparing a conventional shaft to a LD shat. "I put my pants on just like the rest of you...one leg at a time. Except once my pants are on, I make gold records". -Bruce Dickenson-
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I am not criticizing your thoughts in any way, I have said people with your opinion make me money and I am grateful for that. But, there are many factors to Low Deflection shafts that you and many other people don't know and that is obvious. First, did you know that all the Low Deflection shafts made to my knowledge lose a large part Low Deflection ability over a period of time. Do you know why? Because the shafts end and ferrule compresses over time, and as this happens the shafts lose their ability to be non-deflective. Now many have known this for many years, and the Pro's change their shaft every 8 months or so. Most people do not notice the change until they buy a new shaft and and have to adjust to the new shaft. The shafts slowly lose they deflective ability and it is not noticeable because it as it happens you make the adjustments naturally.

Now like I said before, I can make any shaft a non-deflective shaft by lightening up the front end of the shaft, and I can keep it that way by replacing the ferrule and some other materials occasionally.
 
manwon said:
I am not criticizing your thoughts in any way, I have said people with your opinion make me money and I am grateful for that. But, there are many factors to Low Deflection shafts that you and many other people don't know and that is obvious. First, did you know that all the Low Deflection shafts made to my knowledge lose a large part Low Deflection ability over a period of time. Do you know why? Because the shafts end and ferrule compresses over time, and as this happens the shafts lose their ability to be non-deflective. Now many have known this for many years, and the Pro's change their shaft every 8 months or so. Most people do not notice the change until they buy a new shaft and and have to adjust to the new shaft. The shafts slowly lose they deflective ability and it is not noticeable because it as it happens you make the adjustments naturally.

Now like I said before, I can make any shaft a non-deflective shaft by lightening up the front end of the shaft, and I can keep it that way by replacing the ferrule and some other materials occasionally.
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"First, did you know that all the Low Deflection shafts made to my knowledge lose a large part Low Deflection ability over a period of time. Do you know why? Because the shafts end and ferrule compresses over time, and as this happens the shafts lose their ability to be non-deflective. Now many have known this for many years, and the Pro's change their shaft every 8 months or so. Most people do not notice the change until they buy a new shaft and and have to adjust to the new shaft. The shafts slowly lose they deflective ability and it is not noticeable because it as it happens you make the adjustments naturally." Sounds like an urban legend, or maybe just Manwon's legend. Can you prove it empirically?"Now like I said before, I can make any shaft a non-deflective shaft by lightening up the front end of the shaft, and I can keep it that way by replacing the ferrule and some other materials occasionally". Didn't know that there was a non-deflective shaft. If you can make one why are'nt you mass producing them for millions of $ like Predator and OB1?
 
I came across Predator in 2001. I had bought a brand new Tim Scruggs cue and I just hated the way it played. Beautiful cue...but just did not like the shafts at all.

My friends had a brand new Predator shaft that he didn't use and said, "Hey...give this a shot." I loved the taper of it, the feel, and the hit....and it makes aiming much easier, it has more power (you can use a shorter stroke which means more accuracy in your execution) and I think they are just the nuts.

I have a new OB1...and it feels good - but personally I just like the 314 better.

There was no "marketing" about it for me. I didn't know what a LD shaft was when I tried out that Predator. It just felt great and played great. What more can one ask for? Enough pros use them (without being paid too) that should tell you something.
 
is there a way to actually test these shafts to prove that there is such a thing as low deflection. i am not asking if there is some published study,is there a way i can go to the pool table with a shaft or two and actually see the difference for myself.
i have tried certain cues over the years that play good and those that don't,but how can i test the cue to see if it deflects more or less
 
spot shot

deanoc said:
is there a way to actually test these shafts to prove that there is such a thing as low deflection. i am not asking if there is some published study,is there a way i can go to the pool table with a shaft or two and actually see the difference for myself.
i have tried certain cues over the years that play good and those that don't,but how can i test the cue to see if it deflects more or less
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Deano,

1. put the cue ball on the spot.

2. Aim at the center diamond.

3. Grab your cue (chalk up well)

4. Hit an extreme various sidespin shots aiming at the diamond and memorize where the cueball makes contact on the rail.

Take note of the feel, the vibration, the tone. And most importantly, good luck, and God Bless.

Happy Holidays
 
deanoc said:
is there a way to actually test these shafts to prove that there is such a thing as low deflection. i am not asking if there is some published study,is there a way i can go to the pool table with a shaft or two and actually see the difference for myself.
i have tried certain cues over the years that play good and those that don't,but how can i test the cue to see if it deflects more or less
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Of course. It's the Aim & Pivot Test for squirt characteristics.


From Bob Jewett's Pool & Billiard FAQ at http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html :


The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:

For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.

For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The test above is really for the "effective pivot length" which combines spin-induced throw with squirt. Swerve is neglected, as you try to shoot the test per the bold-faced section above. For "normal cues", the range of pivot lengths is in the ballpark of normal bridge lengths. For Predators and such, it's normally much longer.

Fred
 
Big C said:
I too can do the same things with a conventional shaft vs. a LD shaft. The fact is that the LD shaft does it better and more consistently. That's not my opinion. That's a fact. -
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No, that's your opinion.

There are enough people who have tried out low squirt cues for a long period of time and reverted back to a normal shaft to guarantee that your statement is indeed an opinion, not a fact.

The big key is that although low squirt is low squirt, most people who have reverted back talk about the effective swerve and slow blended spin shots that are more difficult to manage with lower squirt shafts.

Is it too difficult to admit that everyone will accept or not accept lower squirt cues at their personal whim and preference and that indeed multitudes of players have given low squirt cues a fair chance?

Fred
 
Impact Blue said:
I'm just curious: for those of you that have been in the game for so long, when all these LD shafts came out were you hitting inside english shots thick? Did you ever adjust to it? or even think it's a worthwhile investment to do so?
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FYI, I have good summaries of many answers to your low-squirt (AKA, "low deflection") shaft questions, along with links to many related resources, here:

LD shafts are not for everybody, but they do offer slight advantages to people who become accustomed to them.

Regards,
Dave
 
Big C said:
"First, did you know that all the Low Deflection shafts made to my knowledge lose a large part Low Deflection ability over a period of time. Do you know why? Because the shafts end and ferrule compresses over time, and as this happens the shafts lose their ability to be non-deflective. Now many have known this for many years, and the Pro's change their shaft every 8 months or so. Most people do not notice the change until they buy a new shaft and and have to adjust to the new shaft. The shafts slowly lose they deflective ability and it is not noticeable because it as it happens you make the adjustments naturally." Sounds like an urban legend, or maybe just Manwon's legend. Can you prove it empirically?"Now like I said before, I can make any shaft a non-deflective shaft by lightening up the front end of the shaft, and I can keep it that way by replacing the ferrule and some other materials occasionally". Didn't know that there was a non-deflective shaft. If you can make one why are'nt you mass producing them for millions of $ like Predator and OB1?
Click to expand...

Like I said, keep staying focused on advertising, and please keep buying these shafts, every time you post I feel my wallet expand!!!!!

Merry Christmas
 
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