Really? Hmmm.....
Varney Cues said:
When you say "custom" to a true 1911 fan...then I think Brown or Vickers. I see your SA has a custom barrel & Richard's sights...who did the work? Nothing wrong with SA but not a true custom. What else do you have?
LOL:rotflmao1:
howdy Mr. Varney, I was just drooling over that black and orange JB you posted. I have been dreaming of that set up for a while. Nice looking cue.
Anyway.... I think this is the first interaction you and I have had. I'll take it as granted that you know cues better than I do.
Not to get into the standard AZ pissing contest, but I will go out on a limb and venture that I know 1911's at least as well as you. I'm a competitive IPSC GM and FLETC certified instructor, not some "mall ninja" or "gun store commando". I know a little more about custom 1911's and how to run 'em than is printed in the glossy pages of the gun rags.
These guns are CUSTOM in the truest sense of the word. They were hand crafted, built to my spec by a master gunsmith and not his helpers or some assembly line of apprentices.
No, they are not, as you suggest, a couple of parts tacked on a factory package gun. I am happy to send you specs on them if you will PM me an email address for you. And for the record, Springfield Milspec is still the base gun of choice for full house customs.:thumbup: Glad we could straighten you out on that one.
I am surprised a detail freak like yourself can't make out some of the custom work in the pics Chaz was so kind to post. Have another look, and shoot me any questions.
But as to your comparison, actually Brown and Vickers are two very different animals, happy to give my opinion of both.
Vickers is a competent gunsmith, although IMO his notoriety is a product of good networking and
American Handgunner. The smith mentioned (Neil Wiggans) has built bolt guns for Vickers, shotguns for Rob Leatham and the Rifles Bill Wilson and his sons take to Africa.
Wiggans is a "gunsmith's gunsmith", almost unknown except for high end users and conissuers. (I am sure I spelled that wrong).
Vickers is a serious, real world SF operator, and is a high visibility spokesperson because of those creds. He is also a very credible competition shooter, I think high M or even GM level "back in the day". If I understand correctly he had a hand in developing the HK .45 and the Taurus 24/7. He is a major poster over on 1911.org and several of the Tactical forums. Neither of us are a fan of Glock, and he has run several torture tests on a Glock vs. one of his hand built 1911's.
I have seen him on TV, just like you. I have also seen and shot some of his work, and it's just simply not as nice as Niel's. In fact Niel tells the story of how he was called in to fix and safety check Vickers own gun at I think the 95 nationals after Larry AD'd and got DQ'd for it.
I spoke with Larry back around 97, before his AH cover gun (which I will match up with Niel's 5" anyday, detail for detail, bet what you want). I was trying to order a
CUSTOM gun. "Custom" meaning it's built FOR ME, how I want. Larry politely offered to take my deposit and build me the gun
he thought I should have.
That's not custom. Hell, by his own admission he farms out his checkering work. It might be quality hand craftsmanship, but it's still selling me your package with a couple zero's tacked on for your famous name. I know some cue makers that fit that description too.
AH created a monster in Larry Vickers. In the same article they featured his cover gun, and a list of rare 1911's, posting his name at the top. His prices went from $2000 to literally $5000 overnight. I wonder who got paid off on that one.
Ed Brown is a great gunsmith, and a friend of Niel's. Call him up and ask him about Wiggans. If he will answer the phone I am sure he'll have a glowing testimony for you.
Mr. Brown doesn't do a whole lot of honest to God, hands on, customer ordered custom work. Hasn't for years. He made some nice guns, won some awards and went into the parts business, much like Bill Wilson, another friend of Neil's. There's more money in parts manufacturing anyway. Brown's safeties are the standard item used on 90% of good custom 1911's today. Niel raves about his parts.
Ed did open for a time a semi-custom shop, much like Les Baer or Wilson, or Nighthawk. He may still have it open, but it's his name and a bunch of apprectices working in an assembly line, building the same package over and over. Basically, they are a group of guys under direction of the big name 'smith. You can look right now on Wilson Combat's website and find a way to spend upwards of $4500 on a gun that is NOT built to your spec, but is a pretty nice example of a hand fit, assembly line, package gun. Again, by my dictionary, not custom.
Currently, and I have been out of things for almost a year now, Brown does have a line of non-custom guns marketed through another manufacturer, including that "Bobtail". I think it's Dan Wesson, or whoever owns them now.
Again, Brown is a talented smith, but it's not like he's taken truly custom orders in 15+ years.
I noticed you said "Richard" like he's a personal buddy of yours. He knows me and Neil and provided a prize gun for a match I hosted a few years ago. "Dick" builds a nice gun, or did. I understand his wait is currently over 7 years and he stopped taking orders.
If you had mentioned Bedell, Garthwait, Lodigran, Dawson, Libenberg, Morris, Janowicz, or a host of others I'd have had different things to say about the "custom" nature of their work. If you have any quesitons about any of those, I'd be happy to recount FIRST HAND, high end user experience.
Again, at your leisure, please have another look at the pics, and feel free to PM or email me with any questions. And in the future it might be better to approach me directly before a post like that.
......did you wanna talk about the weather or were you just makin' idle chit chat? :thumbup2:
