High rails
- Thread starter dmgwalsh
- Start date
realkingcobra said:
Here are the measurements I come up with.
Nose to Nose Width
Rack End Corner Pockets - 50 1/8
Rack End Side Pockets - 50 1/8
Break End Side Pockets - 50 1/8
Break End Corner Pockets - 50
Nose to Top Rail Finish - 2" (all cushions)
I also went and got a triangle ruler so I could get a more accurate nose height reading.
The 5 Slow Rails All Measure 1 3/16
The 1 Fast Rail Measures 1 1/8
The 1 fast rail is on the Break End of the table,
I also looked under the table to see if I could locate any rail shims. One of the slow rails (on the same side as the faster rail) has a washer being used as a shim. The washer is not very thick... I would guess about 1/16 at most.
I suppose by looking at all this I could go to Home Depot and get some wood shims losen the rails (remove the stupid metal washer being used as a shim) and shim up the 5 rails correctly to match the 1 faster rails nose height and then re-tighten.......I expect that would make the other 5 rails play a bit faster and cut down on the "pinch effect"
New question from all this...Do I correct the width of the three sections IN to 50" or the one section OUT to 50 1/8
Looks like length (nose to nose) is right on 100....but it is hard to tell how accurate my measurement is using a tape ruler since the tape measure will slide under the nose of the cushion when measureing and holding it up causes a bow that may skew the reading.
I guess the question is...Is the playing surface supposed to be dead nuts 50" by 100"...or in reality is nose to nose supposed to be 50 1/8 by 100 1/8???? or something in between....(I suppose cushion thickness would change the distance)
Something's not right with these measurments, K66 cushions would change the nose of the cushion to the finish of the rails by 1/16" of an inch, dropping the reading to 1 15/16" therefore widening the playing surface to 50 1/8" x 100 1/8" all the way around. Check the ball contact against the cushion again, because what you're telling me for the cushion height being at 1 1/8" high, you'd be playing basket ball, not poolBRKNRUN said:
Glen
PS. Put up some pictures so I can see what you're measuring.
realkingcobra said:Something's not right with these measurments, K66 cushions would change the nose of the cushion to the finish of the rails by 1/16" of an inch, dropping the reading to 1 15/16" therefore widening the playing surface to 50 1/8" x 100 1/8" all the way around. Check the ball contact against the cushion again, because what you're telling me for the cushion height being at 1 1/8" high, you'd be playing basket ball, not pool
Glen
PS. Put up some pictures so I can see what you're measuring.
Pictures added...
This was the best view I could get to let you see the reading...You can see the worn area where the CB has been making contact with the cushion.
NOTE: You can also kind of see the difference in downward slope of the top of the cushion.
And my measurment of the cushion width from nose to rail finish.
Attachments
Try using a ruler that doesnt have that little notch on the end. (it looks like it doesnt start at zero) Or stand the tape on its end. You're looking for about 1 7/16 inches or so.
The area from the notch to the end looks about 1/4" making the nose height close to 1 1/2" on the 2 "bad" rails and 1 3/8" on the "good" rail.BRKNRUN said:
Stand that square against the nose - then measure horizontally from the cloth edge to the square.
From your pics it looks like the good rail cushion is different from the bad rail cushion.
.
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Mr Penguin said:
You are correct...I did not factor that in.
I have a small level with a ruler on the side and the measurements come out to
Fast Rail - 1 3/8
Slow Rails - Some 1 7/16 Some 1 1/2
Is it standard process to need to shim up (or down) a rail to make the nose heights match up or should they match up on a flush install?
I guess that would depend on the accuracy of the person glueing the cushions..
How much you want to bet these rails were re-cut using a table saw?Dartman said:Agree.
Side X Side the fast/slow cushions look different. Comments?
Glen
realkingcobra said:
No bet...What exactly do you mean by re-cut?
The pic shows exactly why I was wondering if the rubber was installed upside down on the 1 rail...or perhaps it was installed upside down on the 5 slow rails and he got "lucky" on the 1 rail..(since none of the 5 have the tell tale step where the rubber meets sub rail)
If they were it was probably done before I got the table...When I got the table I had new cushions put on and the table played slow...I have no idea what the mechanic put on..(I did not ask) but they turned to stone in 1 year...I mean "STONE"
This was supposed to be a reputable mechanic in my area (I will leave nameless) I asked him to come back out about a month after he set the table up because the table played mud slow and the cloth felt really loose...He charged me for a re-stretch........It still played slow.
I survived about 5 years like that and decided it was time to get it re-done...
New rails new cloth...New Mechanic...I asked around and found another popular local mechanic.....The consensus was that the longest lasting and best rubber is the Artemus...I ordered the rubber myself since the mechanic did not have a source. (And told me he had never installed Artemus rubber...that should have been a red flag) I know the rubber I gave him was Artemus Rubber.
At any rate...I have played on it this way for 3 years now...It is not a totally unplayable table...actually it is a great practice table in that it forces you to get correct shape to get from shot to shot (when using rails) get a bit flat and you are in trouble
And I am pretty much done with local mechanics in my area...I am just going to learn to do it myself..."screw em"...When the guys with the supposed top credential in the area can't get it done right...It is time to just figure it out myself.
In the meantime......Until I decide (and have the money) to break down the table and re-build it...based on the current sutuation without pulling and remounting new rubber......Is there any reason I would not want to put three shims per rail in the other 5 rails and shim the back so the nose cushions drops down and matches up with the 1 normal rail.
From what I am reading in another thread I am not even sure that is going to speed them up enough...but it may help get them closer to normal for now
Sorry, just shimming the rails up to the correct cushion height won't change the angle of the approach of the cushion to the object ball, in other words, if the nose of the cushion is pointing downward, raising the rail is not going to change the fact that the cushion is still pointing downwardly, it just raises the downward angle higher is all.BRKNRUN said:
Glen
realkingcobra said:
What I meant by shimming is just the outer part of the sub rail...
An example would be if I lifted just the back end of a car the nose would dip closer to the ground...
If I were to losen the rail bolts put three (or even 4) "wedges in the out side of the rail and then tap them in until I get a lower nose height that matches the one rail that does play normal......and then re-tighten the rail bolts and break off any extuding wedge that might get in the way of installing the apron.
I wonder if that may effectively change (improve) the cushion angle a bit also since the rails that are slow are the rails that have less downward slope.
I re-checked the bottom of all the cushions and none are crowned...All of them are a straight line from the nose to the subrail so I am thinking that they were probably all installed correctly.
I still wonder why the 1 rail has that step and none of the others do...and why the 1 rail has more downward slope than the others.
I am starting to wonder if he somehow botched one of the cushion glues (or cuts) and just threw some other kind of rubber on there and clothed it.......(I will find that out eventually when I break the table down and pull back the cloth.
BRKNRUN said:
Recutting the angle of the subrail.
1 7/16 is the correct nose height.
1 1/2 is a bit high and would tend towards slowing ball rebound.
1 3/8 is a bit low and I'd suspect there may be a slight ball bounce rather then a true rebound.
Since you see no arc on the bottom side of the cushions it's more then likely they were not installed upside down.
A mismatched cushion is a possibility. No telling what was done to the rails in the past.
IMO you'll need to get under the rail cloth for a proper diagnosis.
BRKNRUN said:
This is pretty much where I am at. Not knocking any mechanics that do good work but in my area there is nobody that I know of that does decent work. There are some pretty decent tables around here that are pretty messed up. Since being on AZ I have learned an awful lot about tables and can at the very least recognize poor table work and where problems are.
Check the post title k66 cushion angles to see what you've got.
K55 or K66
I am going to hijack this post back again.
The person who installed the K66 on my Brunswick VIP is working on fixing the problem. He agrees that they are too high but is not convinced that K 66 is not the correct rubber.
We were exploring the option of him cutting the rails in such a manner that it would change the angle on the rubber and bringing the height down.
Another fellow said don't do that. All you need to do is take off the K66 rubber and put it back on only glue it on a little lower to the rail. It would then not be flush with the top of the rail but the height would effectively be lowered.
The third option would be to install the K55 but I don't think he is convinced that the K55 is the correct rubber.(If we went Artemis K55, that is the same as Artemis Intercontinental K66, right? The price seems about double the K66, but that is a different issue)
Let me know what you think about the three options above.
Thanks for your help.
dmgwalsh said:
I am going to hijack this post back again.
The person who installed the K66 on my Brunswick VIP is working on fixing the problem. He agrees that they are too high but is not convinced that K 66 is not the correct rubber.
We were exploring the option of him cutting the rails in such a manner that it would change the angle on the rubber and bringing the height down.
Another fellow said don't do that. All you need to do is take off the K66 rubber and put it back on only glue it on a little lower to the rail. It would then not be flush with the top of the rail but the height would effectively be lowered.
The third option would be to install the K55 but I don't think he is convinced that the K55 is the correct rubber.(If we went Artemis K55, that is the same as Artemis Intercontinental K66, right? The price seems about double the K66, but that is a different issue)
Let me know what you think about the three options above.
Thanks for your help.
dmgwalsh said:
the correct cushion is K55, why would you use anything else.