His Boy Elroy - Pool Eccentric: An Autobiography

[His Boy Elroy]

There's a thread over at the "Ask the instructor" Forum titled "Would like some ideas on playing better shape." That's what they talked about Monday until the middle of page 2 when I rudely interrupted and changed the subject. Without really intending to, I sat for 2 hours, collected my thoughts, and well: the title of this thread says it all. In it I say I discovered "touch of English" in 1996. (a private poster informed me that C.J doesn't use the word English when speaking of the spin in T.O.I, but I was using both touch of inside and touch of outside and it was what I was doing and I'll call what I was doing "Touch of English. Maybe then C.J doesn't want me using his word touch if I'm going to use the word English. Fair enough. In the aformentioned post I mention that I discovered "A tad bit of English in 1996) Well: despite our differences in semantics C.J. read the post, posted back and said basically "Good for you." I then learned something I didn't know. There are a few instructors who are somewhat hostile towards T.B.E and T.O.I. They were not happy that C.J. was happy with me. Anyhow, it wasn't boring. You might want to head over there.

 

[bobforest]

什么？我看不动。。。。

 

[rayjay]

I'm guessing that a Touch of English was first discovered around 1815, and then annually by somebody until today.
:grin:

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think it is important to differentiate between a 'touch on inside' as CJ means it & what almost all of us would take that to mean if we did not know what CJ means.

If one were to tell someone to hit a certain shot with a touch of inside, I would think that most would take that to mean a touch of inside english spin.

CJ's 'touch of inside' does not use that 'touch' of an off center hit for the purpose of putting english spin on the ball.

They are two (2) totally different things altogether.

One is for the purpose of putting spin on the ball.

CJ's is for the purpose of getting the cue ball to squirt 'off line'

What makes them be different & have different effects is the spin to speed ratio to which the shot is executed.

I think there are far too many that do not understand spin to speed ratio or speed to spin ratio & the different effects that they can have dependent on the actual ratio that exists.

 

[Mr. Bond]

I'm guessing that a Touch of English was first discovered around 1815, and then annually by somebody until today.
:grin:

Bingo- you win the "nail on the head " award for today.

TOI, CTE, 'diamond systems', and pretty much all the rest of the aiming/shooting/execution techniques, have been around for well over 100 years. Nobody alive today discovered these things for the first time and that's a documented fact.

Sure, Greenleaf probably never heard the word ' deflection ' used in relation to pool, but somehow or another he learned to deal with it by the time he was 16. What 16 yr old do you know today that could give someone like SVB a run for his money? Probably none.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that people back in the day didn't know anything about shooting exceptionally accurately, because they certainly did.

 

[sfleinen]

Scratching my head -- what is this, a self-pat-on-the-back thread?

I went over there, and to be honest, the huge wall-o'-text posts by the OP were an incredible pain to read.

I'd recommend the OP get familiar with the use of the [Enter] or [Return] keys on his keyboard, and make judicious use of these keys to properly "paragraph-itize" for better reading.

-Sean

 

[Neil]

I think it is important to differentiate between a 'touch on inside' as CJ means it & what almost all of us would take that to mean if we did not know what CJ means.

If one were to tell someone to hit a certain shot with a touch of inside, I would think that most would take that to mean a touch of inside english spin.

CJ's 'touch of inside' does not use that 'touch' of an off center hit for the purpose of putting english spin on the ball.

They are two (2) totally different things altogether.

One is for the purpose of putting spin on the ball.

CJ's is for the purpose of getting the cue ball to squirt 'off line'

What makes them be different & have different effects is the spin to speed ratio to which the shot is executed.

I think there are far too many that do not understand spin to speed ratio or speed to spin ratio & the different effects that they can have dependent on the actual ratio that exists.

Thanks for making it clear that all the resident "scientists" (Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, ect.) on here don't have a clue, and CJ knows all, and by reason then, CJ's followers also know all. Geesh, Rick, get a clue about things before you post about them.

There is nothing "different" about them just because you think there is. And, the only reason you think there is, is because if there isn't a difference, then your whole premise falls flat on it's face. If you hit off center, you get spin and squirt. The more you hit off center, the more squirt you get. You can't change that, no matter how much you want to. And, you can't hit off center without getting spin like CJ adamantly claims you can.

But, since you understand the spin to speed ratios and their effects so well, why don't you just explain them to us to where we can all be enlightened? You saying we don't understand doesn't mean squat. Show us what we don't understand.

 

[sfleinen]

Thanks for making it clear that all the resident "scientists" (Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, ect.) on here don't have a clue, and CJ knows all, and by reason then, CJ's followers also know all. Geesh, Rick, get a clue about things before you post about them.

There is nothing "different" about them just because you think there is. And, the only reason you think there is, is because if there isn't a difference, then your whole premise falls flat on it's face. If you hit off center, you get spin and squirt. The more you hit off center, the more squirt you get. You can't change that, no matter how much you want to. And, you can't hit off center without getting spin like CJ adamantly claims you can.

But, since you understand the spin to speed ratios and their effects so well, why don't you just explain them to us to where we can all be enlightened? You saying we don't understand doesn't mean squat. Show us what we don't understand.

And another thing to think about is this:

** Why is this "issue" of being able to reliably hit center-ball (or center-axis) only an issue in pool? And why is it pool is the only cue sport where a "BandAid" is offered because, as the NY State Lotto TV commercials go, "you never know!"?

Could it be because of the loosey-goosey non-structured fundamentals that come part and parcel with pool? E.g. fundamentals where a certain advocate recommends gripping the cue like a tennis racquet and using a delivery motion that resembles a stab with a pitchfork or straight-handled shovel?

I mean, I understand the impetus behind TOI, in that it's designed to favor the error. But if it's known there is this error in the first place, I would think the better thing to work on is the cue delivery motion itself -- i.e. a motion that is reliable and accurate to the human body's form and function. Hate to keep beating this drum, but snooker has long conquered the issue of accurate cue delivery. You don't see "BandAids" being offered in snooker in how to align oneself to and deliver the cue.

Just something to think about. Unfortunately, that right there is the problem with pool players -- too much pride to accept the fact that pool fundamentals just don't cut it, so off we go looking for "BandAids."

-Sean

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Yeah...Well, I didn't actually mean that literally when I said that I was shocked when I heard C.J. Wiley talk about T.O.I. I thought I invented it. I knew there had to be information about it somewhere but I don't know any other pool players and I looked through many chapter titles and indexes of pool books at the library and couldn't find any info. My tongue was a little bit in my cheek. I was both trying to be funny ( I guess it didn't work) with the pool eccentric bit. I recently purchased a $200 McDermott but I had been playing for the last fifteen years with a cue I bought for $50 dollars at J.C. Pennys. It's a good cue. It really doesn't have anymore squirt than the McDermott. Every now and then I think I say something somewhat intelligent, and I was worried that on that occasion someone might look at my previous posts and learn some of these things so I tried to explain them away in a comedic fashion. ( I guess it didn't work) And for heaven sake, I am an eccentric pool player. Didn't I say that for 9000 hours I was an awful pool player! Heck, At 7000 hours I'll bet there were good high school athletes who'd only played 30 hours of pool in their lives that could have beaten me. It's true that I never allowed family members to watch me play for this reason. I learned pool by obeying my subconcious and my subconscious told me I was supposed to be like one of those Asian martial artists who after 7000 hours of training get the crap beaten out of them by some guy with only 30 hours of boxing training because they've spent 7000 hours standing on some rock with their arm stretched out this way and their leg stretched out that way. But when they do start learning how to fight, all that time standing on that rock pays very handsome dividends, and all those thousands of hours I spent gaining knowledge of the pool stroke while not having acquired the tangible skill to beat a good high school athlete with only 30 hours of pool experience.... Boy is it paying dividends, and don't you think I have the right, after all that suffering, to pat myself on the back when I finally send a violin note through the world?....The world would be in a holy mess without nut cases like me!

 

[ENGLISH!]

As I said, I think some just don't understand the difference between hitting inside for the purpose of using the spin & hitting the ball inside for the purpose of using the squirt. It comes down to the speed of the shot relative to the spin.

I don't think anyone said that you can hit off of center & not get squirt & spin either with or without swerve. It's about the different NET effects & that depends on the ratio of the speed to the spin or vise versa.

Some understand & some don't.

 

[Neil]

As I said, I think some just don't understand the difference between hitting inside for the purpose of using the spin & hitting the ball inside for the purpose of using the squirt. It comes down to the speed of the shot relative to the spin.

I don't think anyone said that you can hit off of center & not get squirt & spin either with or without swerve. Well, I won't argue your statement of "I don't think", I know it's hard for you to believe your hero would say that, but he has quite a few times. has argued it, ect. So, your little idea of not responding to me, yet not thinking that others would know you don't have me on ignore (again) when I was the only one that stated that fact in this thread, wasn't too well thought out, was it? It's about the different NET effects & that depends on the ratio of the speed to the spin or vise versa.

Some understand & some don't.

So, I'll ask again- since "we" don't understand it, explain it for us. Enlighten us.




or, you can just skip it again because it's easier to try and sound like you know what you are talking about when you don't actually have to explain anything.

 

[lfigueroa]

And another thing to think about is this:

** Why is this "issue" of being able to reliably hit center-ball (or center-axis) only an issue in pool? And why is it pool is the only cue sport where a "BandAid" is offered because, as the NY State Lotto TV commercials go, "you never know!"?

Could it be because of the loosey-goosey non-structured fundamentals that come part and parcel with pool? E.g. fundamentals where a certain advocate recommends gripping the cue like a tennis racquet and using a delivery motion that resembles a stab with a pitchfork or straight-handled shovel?

I mean, I understand the impetus behind TOI, in that it's designed to favor the error. But if it's known there is this error in the first place, I would think the better thing to work on is the cue delivery motion itself -- i.e. a motion that is reliable and accurate to the human body's form and function. Hate to keep beating this drum, but snooker has long conquered the issue of accurate cue delivery. You don't see "BandAids" being offered in snooker in how to align oneself to and deliver the cue.

Just something to think about. Unfortunately, that right there is the problem with pool players -- too much pride to accept the fact that pool fundamentals just don't cut it, so off we go looking for "BandAids."

-Sean

Good post, Sean.

People always want the "shortcut" regardless of whether it dooms them in the long term.

Just as on late night TV, with its endless parade of instant weight loss cures and get rich quick schemes, there will always be someone selling something to magically improve your pool game.

Find yourself a consistent PSR that reliably gives you a straight stroke at all speeds. It sounds simple but it is not. If it were, we'd all be running 100s.

Lou Figueroa
here they come
walkin' down the street
they get the funniest looks from
everyone they meet
hey hey they're the monkeys...
(can't believe I can remember that from heart)

 

[ENGLISH!]

So, I'll ask again- since "we" don't understand it, explain it for us. Enlighten us.




or, you can just skip it again because it's easier to try and sound like you know what you are talking about when you don't actually have to explain anything.

It would seem that you are doing nothing but trying to goat me into an argument.

I am quite sure that with all of your knowledge & experience that you fully understand the differences in how to apply the same tip location on a cue ball to different purposes. Or...perhaps not.

What exactly are your motives?

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Banks]

It's easier to hit the ball in a different specific place because it's harder to hit the ball in another specific place that's right next to the new place? :scratchhead:

What do I know, I'm just a league player that plays in a bar on Valley tables using a short bar cue with a flat tip. It really doesn't get much worse than that.

 

[Neil]

It would seem that you are doing nothing but trying to goat me into an argument.

I am quite sure that with all of your knowledge & experience that you fully understand the differences in how to apply the same tip location on a cue ball to different purposes. Or...perhaps not.

What exactly are your motives?

Best Wishes,
Rick

Motives? I'm not like you Rick, I don't have "motives". I asked a simple question for you to answer. You stated that "we" don't understand. So, I asked you to explain what you are talking about. You still won't. That tells me that you can't explain it, and just want to be contrary on here.

And, no, I don't understand how you can hit the cb in the same place with the same speed and have two different things happen. In fact, I am on record saying just the opposite. So, enlighten me and the others.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Motives? I'm not like you Rick, I don't have "motives". I asked a simple question for you to answer. You stated that "we" don't understand. So, I asked you to explain what you are talking about. You still won't. That tells me that you can't explain it, and just want to be contrary on here.

And, no, I don't understand how you can hit the cb in the same place with the same speed and have two different things happen. In fact, I am on record saying just the opposite. So, enlighten me and the others.

See, you can't make a post without falsehoods & distortions.

I did not say 'with the same speed'.

AND...I did not say who does not understand.

Apparently, you do understand.

 

[Neil]

See, you can't make a post without falsehoods & distortions.

I did not say 'with the same speed'.

AND...I did not say who does not understand.

Apparently, you do understand.

So, for a third time, are you going to explain it or not? I'm saying NOT because I know you can't. Quit trying to twist things, and just answer the simple question. I'm not the one putting out "falsehoods" here. So, prove me wrong. I would love to learn something.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Wade Crane said he though Luther and I played very similar styles.

Yeah...Well, I didn't actually mean that literally when I said that I was shocked when I heard C.J. Wiley talk about T.O.I. I thought I invented it.


The first one I was told used the TOI Technique was Luther Lassiter. Wade Crane said he thought Luther and I played very similar styles. Wade also told me he thought Luther could spot any of the best players the 8 (including me), and that did include all the legendary players mentioned on this forum, like Harold W. and Ralph G.

I gave Johnny Morro the Break/First shot/ and the last two one time and beat him out of over 6k - after the match I ask Wade (who watched the entire battle) "Could Luther have given me the "8 Ball" and won against me tonight? Wade chuckled, and said "you could have beaten anyone tonight, even Lassiter.

I didn't "invent" the TOUCH OF INSIDE, just like the guy that invented Kleenex wasn't the first one to wipe his nose with a piece of cloth. What I did was figure out how it works at the subconscious level and communicate and demonstrate it the best way I could (more info at www.cjwiley.com). I still have to work with someone in person for them to truly maximize the benefit because of the intricacies of the TOI Positioning relative to the shot line. Most players simply aren't hitting where they aim.

This is something difficult to do (even for me) without someone with a trained eye watching and guiding you. Right now besides me, Hunter Lombardo is the only one I would trust to do this. When I was having trouble recently I got Hunter (and Corey for another aspect) to watch me and he got me back on track, even though he said my main problem with finding my "slot" was the extra weight I had put on.

I'm perfectly fine with that type criticism,(CJ, you're too fat to play) he was right and to play my top speed I have to do it at the weight of around 190, 200 and higher inhibits my natural forearm/wrist/hand position (my body's center point changes) and makes it impossible for me to hit the ball as accurately as needed to beat the best player in the world. No matter what system you use the key is always TIP accuracy.

Another think, cueing the ball to the inside slightly takes the other side of the ball out of the equation, I've explained why this is so important many times, yet it's amazing how few understand it. I explain it in more detail in my new TIP Banking Secrets DVD.

Once we "real eyes" that maximizing margin of error ONLY happens when we adjust our cue ball targeting,(favoring one side of center) the faster a player will begin to capitalize on the benefits of the TOI Technique of play. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

Motives? I'm not like you Rick, I don't have "motives". I asked a simple question for you to answer. You stated that "we" don't understand. So, I asked you to explain what you are talking about. You still won't. That tells me that you can't explain it, and just want to be contrary on here.

And, no, I don't understand how you can hit the cb in the same place with the same speed and have two different things happen. In fact, I am on record saying just the opposite. So, enlighten me and the others.

You can't learn anything new regarding this because you've already got it Neil.

Same tip location + different speeds of hit = something different happening.

 

[ENGLISH!]

'Elroy',

I'd like to apologize for my stalker high-jacking your thread.

I'm Sorry. I was only trying to help.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick