Hit/Feel versus Low Deflection Shafts

[JMW]

I started playing pool four years ago. I took some lessons and I am now an APA 6 (8 ball). My playing style is to use as little english as possible. Direction, speed, follow, stun and draw will usually get the cue ball to an acceptable spot for the next shot. I find that when I need to use english, it is usually to recover from bad position play. I feel that if I ever become an A player, my positioning skills should keep me from needing to use side-spin on shots longer than a half table or draw for more than a table length.

My first cue was a predator and I am still playing with it. I have decided to get a new Schon cue and I can’t make up my mind whether I want the stock Schon shaft or upgrade to another Predator shaft (I can’t afford both). I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.

So… I was hoping that some of you might have experience with these shafts and would provide me some insight based on your playing style. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
JW

 

[Egg McDogit]

Using english is unavoidable. like it or not, you're going to have to be able to reliably put english on shots longer than half the table. deflection on a pred and schon is like night and day. Some people seem to have a hard time adjusting to deflection. If you think that's going to be a problem for you, try shelving your pred for a week and playing with something else to test the waters

I started playing pool four years ago. I took some lessons and I am now an APA 6 (8 ball). My playing style is to use as little english as possible. Direction, speed, follow, stun and draw will usually get the cue ball to an acceptable spot for the next shot. I find that when I need to use english, it is usually to recover from bad position play. I feel that if I ever become an A player, my positioning skills should keep me from needing to use side-spin on shots longer than a half table or draw for more than a table length.

My first cue was a predator and I am still playing with it. I have decided to get a new Schon cue and I can’t make up my mind whether I want the stock Schon shaft or upgrade to another Predator shaft (I can’t afford both). I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.

So… I was hoping that some of you might have experience with these shafts and would provide me some insight based on your playing style. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
JW

 

[Snapshot9]

I guess...

All this shaft discussion is beyond me, as I would never
buy a cue where I didn't like the feel and hit of it to
begin with, and I would never buy a cue where I
couldn't try it first. To me, that's like buying a car
without driving it first, but that is just my opinion.

 

[catscradle]

...

So… I was hoping that some of you might have experience with these shafts and would provide me some insight based on your playing style. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
JW

When I bought my first non-production cue from Mike Webb I had been playing with a McDermott with a predator shaft. Mike was so kind as to let me try both a predator and his own shaft for a reasonable length of time on the cue I was buying. I decided to go with the shaft Mike made because of precisely the "hit/feel" and never looked back. I found that for the amount of side I use it just doesn't make much difference or I'm sub-conciously adjusting for it. Doesn't matter which, squirt isn't much of a problem for me.
I've never used a Schon, but say if you really like the Schon shaft's "hit", go with it. Even if you do use more english than you think you do, you'll adjust to it over a little time.

 

[Tbeaux]

My first cue was a predator and I am still playing with it. I have decided to get a new Schon cue and I can’t make up my mind whether I want the stock Schon shaft or upgrade to another Predator shaft (I can’t afford both). I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.

Thanks for your time,
JW

I think you've got it right. The Schon shaft will have more play to it the Predator will be more forgiving of off center hits.Since you say you don't use english much the predator probably works fine for your style of play. The Schon would probably also work ok for your style of play, just a little more deflection.

Terry

 

[coastydad]

I started playing pool four years ago. I took some lessons and I am now an APA 6 (8 ball). My playing style is to use as little english as possible. Direction, speed, follow, stun and draw will usually get the cue ball to an acceptable spot for the next shot. I find that when I need to use english, it is usually to recover from bad position play. I feel that if I ever become an A player, my positioning skills should keep me from needing to use side-spin on shots longer than a half table or draw for more than a table length.

My first cue was a predator and I am still playing with it. I have decided to get a new Schon cue and I can’t make up my mind whether I want the stock Schon shaft or upgrade to another Predator shaft (I can’t afford both). I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.

So… I was hoping that some of you might have experience with these shafts and would provide me some insight based on your playing style. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
JW

JW - I'd go with the Schon shaft. I've played with a Schon before and their shaft taper is real solid. Hit with a Predator a few months ago and wouldn't ever trade my Skip Weston shafts for them. Personally, think they're a lot of hype.

 

[zeeder]

JW - I'd go with the Schon shaft. I've played with a Schon before and their shaft taper is real solid. Hit with a Predator a few months ago and wouldn't ever trade my Skip Weston shafts for them. Personally, think they're a lot of hype.

I agree. I'd much rather play with my S. Weston or Gilbert shafts. I am, however, interested to hit with my ER cue that will be here shortly. It's shafts will have carbon fiber inserts into a solid maple shaft, though not all the way through, and ivory ferrules.

 

[Tbeaux]

I agree. I'd much rather play with my S. Weston or Gilbert shafts. I am, however, interested to hit with my ER cue that will be here shortly. It's shafts will have carbon fiber inserts into a solid maple shaft, though not all the way through, and ivory ferrules.

Zac.....err...Zee,

When you get the ER post your thoughts and compare to the Weston and Gilberts and any aftermarkets you've played with.I'd be very interested to hear since it sounds like you like a shaft with "play". What does Edwin call his shafts with the carbon inserts?

Terry

 

[zeeder]

Zac.....err...Zee,

When you get the ER post your thoughts and compare to the Weston and Gilberts and any aftermarkets you've played with.I'd be very interested to hear since it sounds like you like a shaft with "play". What does Edwin call his shafts with the carbon inserts?

Terry

Will do. I do prefer the feel if cues with solid maple shafts althought I've not tried the Intimidator series from McDermott. Before I joined this forum I'd never heard of backhand english but after finding out and paying attention to what I was doing it turned out that I was pretty much doing this on my own out of, I guess, trial and error.

In one of the posts he said he tested an R7 shaft on my cue so that may be what he calls this shaft. He has another shaft called the ER240 which has 240 layers of lamination and the carbon core with the ivory ferrule but the wait on this shaft is more than a year from what I was told.

 

[DEATHTRON]

I started playing pool four years ago. I took some lessons and I am now an APA 6 (8 ball). My playing style is to use as little english as possible. Direction, speed, follow, stun and draw will usually get the cue ball to an acceptable spot for the next shot. I find that when I need to use english, it is usually to recover from bad position play. I feel that if I ever become an A player, my positioning skills should keep me from needing to use side-spin on shots longer than a half table or draw for more than a table length.

My first cue was a predator and I am still playing with it. I have decided to get a new Schon cue and I can’t make up my mind whether I want the stock Schon shaft or upgrade to another Predator shaft (I can’t afford both). I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.

So… I was hoping that some of you might have experience with these shafts and would provide me some insight based on your playing style. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
JW

I was in your shoes last october. I bought a Jacoby and opted to not have a predator shaft made for it because the Jacoby shaft hit 10x better than my predtor shaft. My game was off for months. Finally I had a predator fitted for the jacoby, my game was instantly back up. If youre used to the predator shaft then just stick with it, at least IMO. My game suffered when I tried to go from predator to a regualr maple shaft....

My .02
Zach

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.
...

A couple of points...

In my opinion, someone wanting to sell you a shaft needs to let you chalk it and spin the ball with it, or you end up buying a pig in a poke. You cannot tell how a shaft will play without spinning the ball.

There are retailers who will whine and gnash their teeth about this, but if they don't know how to make a shaft look enough like new, they need to get out of billiard retail. Just my opinion. There is a cue store in Oregon that has literally hundreds of cues available up to the very expensive, and they encourage customers to play with a cue as long as they need to make a decision. People go out of their way to go there to buy cues. Billiards and Bagels, Gresham, Oregon.

The balance is determined by the weighting of both the shaft and the butt, and not just by the shaft. If you prefer a stick weighted forward more, a local mechanic may be able to fix that for you.

Often the hit of a cue is masked by the kind of tip that's on it. It's real hard to compare hits without doing something about the tip. The hit can also be masked by something trivial like a slightly loose rubber bumper.

Some people prefer the feel of low-squirt shafts, which vary a lot. Some people who play with quite a bit of side spin prefer relatively high-squirt shafts.

 

[TATE]

This is not something that can be answered by others.

I use a Predator and it is ideal for my game. I play better with it than I do with conventional shafts. I have spoken with some experienced players. Some have had the same experience some have not.

One pro speed player recently (candidly) told me that he tried to switch to a Predator at the urging of other pro's, and his game was messed up for the months he used it. He switched back to a conventional shaft and his game went right back up.

Just as there are some players who readily adapt to the Predator and benefit from it, there are others who are hurt by it.

It all comes down to pocketing balls and controlling the cueball. I personally pocket balls better with a Predator and my cueball does not suffer. You have to figure out yourself how our own game is affected.

Chris

 

[JMW]

I would like to thank you all for your responses!

What if I had the Schon shaft taken down to 12.75mm like the Predator shaft. Would that decrease the Schon shaft deflection? Has anyone tried this? I know it wouldnt be the same as the 314 due to the hollow area. But shouldnt it help some? Isnt this why the Z shaft deflects less than the 314?

Thanks again for your time,
JW

 

[Bob Jewett]

I would like to thank you all for your responses!

What if I had the Schon shaft taken down to 12.75mm like the Predator shaft. Would that decrease the Schon shaft deflection? Has anyone tried this? I know it wouldnt be the same as the 314 due to the hollow area. But shouldnt it help some? Isnt this why the Z shaft deflects less than the 314?...

Yes, the Z has less mass up front partly because it has a smaller diameter. I don't think that taking a 13mm shaft down to 12.75 will really help much. On the other hand, if you take it down to 11.75 and remove the ferrule, it may start to approach the squirt of a Predator.

 

[Tbeaux]

I would like to thank you all for your responses!

What if I had the Schon shaft taken down to 12.75mm like the Predator shaft. Would that decrease the Schon shaft deflection? Has anyone tried this? I know it wouldnt be the same as the 314 due to the hollow area. But shouldnt it help some? Isnt this why the Z shaft deflects less than the 314?

Thanks again for your time,
JW

There is a "very very small" difference in deflection between the Z and the 314.
I think the main difference according to predator is the taper. Schon I believe already comes with a Pro taper. I think as far as solid shafts go Schon is already about as good as it gets. On of the cuemakers might have better recommendations about what can be done to a solid wood shaft to decrease deflection. If you look at Platinum Billiards testing the "average difference in deflection" from a Schon solid shaft tested and the Z shaft is about 1/2 in over 50 inches of travel.

Terry

Terry

 

[LWW]

From my knowledge the best way would be to go with a Bob Dzuicky shaft.

He makes one which has a graphite insert in the end of the shaft which lowers the weight simikar to the 314 hollow spot but retains a more solid maplesque fell.

I have only tried one but it was to me undiscernible in deflection from a 314 and undiscernible from a maple shaft in feel.

My $0.02. YMMV. No association with DZcues, yadda yadda yadda/

LWW

 

[mjantti]

I would like to thank you all for your responses!

What if I had the Schon shaft taken down to 12.75mm like the Predator shaft. Would that decrease the Schon shaft deflection? Has anyone tried this? I know it wouldnt be the same as the 314 due to the hollow area. But shouldnt it help some? Isnt this why the Z shaft deflects less than the 314?

Thanks again for your time,
JW

Yep. Deflection is caused by the end-mass of the cue. If you take down the ferrule size, you're decreasing the end-mass and thus having less squirt.

Once again deflection and squirt mixed up here

 

[Koop]

I would like to thank you all for your responses!

What if I had the Schon shaft taken down to 12.75mm like the Predator shaft. Would that decrease the Schon shaft deflection? Has anyone tried this? I know it wouldnt be the same as the 314 due to the hollow area. But shouldnt it help some? Isnt this why the Z shaft deflects less than the 314?

Thanks again for your time,
JW

I've had two Schons and both were taken down to 12.6 mm.
I would never buy a Schon and put another shaft on it but that is not say there aren't people who would. Alex Pagulayan comes to mind.
If you decide to keep the Schon shaft, run right out and replace the tip. They are God awful at holding chalk and they miscue like crazy. I had a $15 Triangle tip installed and no more problems.

Best of luck,
Koop

 

[Tbeaux]

Yep.

Once again deflection and squirt mixed up here

Yep...blame Bob Meucci. Deflection-amount the shaft bends off the straight and narrow. Squirt-the amount the ball deflects(hehehe).
Maybe we can also discuss the difference between "pivot point" and "deflection point".

Terry ( at least it's on the main forum....those cuemakers go nuts over this discussion)

 

[pete lafond]

My first cue was a predator and I am still playing with it. I have decided to get a new Schon cue and I can’t make up my mind whether I want the stock Schon shaft or upgrade to another Predator shaft (I can’t afford both). I tried both shafts and really really really liked the Schon shaft hit and balance compared to the Predator. In fact, I felt like I may have been misled with the whole predator thing. I have been sacrificing feel the whole time I have been learning to play. But I could not chalk the Schon cue tip to see what kind of deflection I might get and if it would even effect me considering my style of play.

So… I was hoping that some of you might have experience with these shafts and would provide me some insight based on your playing style. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
JW

I play with a Schon and love the stick, very solid. Why not buy the Schon and add a Predator shaft? Your use to it.

Predator also makes one great break cue.