Hitting cut shots with draw - why do I keep missing?

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?

 

[SmoothStroke]

I’m guessing you are twisting, steering, screwing the stroke.
A cut shot with draw, spin, whatever, isn’t any different than a straight shot when it comes to delivering the cue stick.
You must deliver straight and smooth.

When you can deliver straight and smooth 99.9 +100% then you’re on the road to make the necessary adjustments with confidence for any shot and cue ball movement.
It’s not complicated it’s a rather simple concept.
Without a straight stroke you’re screwed.
Everything else is simple compared.

 

[maha]

walk before you run.

start with a straight in shot a couple feet away center ball. and stop shot until you can always make the cue ball truly stop right there.

then go down on the cueball tiny amounts and i mean tiny and do it until you find exactly where it comes back to you and stops. and you can repeat it.

add tiny bits until you can always draw the cueball back straight towards you and know close to where it will stop.

now you can play pool. and have somewhat cueball control.

next go to follow. if you cant do both well adding english is not ready for you. .

 

[boogieman]

I'm going to suggest something. Look up and practice the "mighty x drill" and see how you do. I believe Bert Kinister started it but Neils has it on his channel too, he is a former student. Doing this drill will help to train you to not put unintended side spin on draw shots. It's a tough drill, be sure to listen to the part about starting out closer to the OB if you're not a pro or it will drive you nuts.

Any error on a draw shot seems to be magnified. In laymen terms people say the draw is throwing the shot off. In actuality it can be a lot of things, the accuracy needed when using draw is increased. Now I will be honest, I don't know if there's any truth to this, but I personally feel that draw kind of has a gearing effect or maybe just magnifies a gearing effect causing the OB to go off line. Couple that with a cut or not straight in shot and the need for accuracy really increases. I generally like to add a bit of left or right depending on the shot, not a ton but a touch to kind of cancel out some cling/cut induced throw.

It's a shot that is needed so practice is essential. It's been suggested, but try progressive practice where you start out close to the OB and increase distance as you start making 10/10 or 5/5 of the shot you set up. If you miss balls move closer to the OB.

Once you start nailing them it will feel like a super power, but remember the saying, "draw for show, follow for dough." I probably play draw too much but I just love how a well hit one feels. It's like floating the CB.

 

[maha]

to op you got good advice taking time out from knowledgeable players. so don't go and run off but join the community and ad what you can.

one good turn deserves another.

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm going to suggest something. Look up and practice the "mighty x drill" and see how you do. I believe Bert Kinister started it but Neils has it on his channel too, he is a former student. Doing this drill will help to train you to not put unintended side spin on draw shots. It's a tough drill, be sure to listen to the part about starting out closer to the OB if you're not a pro or it will drive you nuts.

Any error on a draw shot seems to be magnified. In laymen terms people say the draw is throwing the shot off. In actuality it can be a lot of things, the accuracy needed when using draw is increased. Now I will be honest, I don't know if there's any truth to this, but I personally feel that draw kind of has a gearing effect or maybe just magnifies a gearing effect causing the OB to go off line. Couple that with a cut or not straight in shot and the need for accuracy really increases. I generally like to add a bit of left or right depending on the shot, not a ton but a touch to kind of cancel out some cling/cut induced throw.

It's a shot that is needed so practice is essential. It's been suggested, but try progressive practice where you start out close to the OB and increase distance as you start making 10/10 or 5/5 of the shot you set up. If you miss balls move closer to the OB.

Once you start nailing them it will feel like a super power, but remember the saying, "draw for show, follow for dough." I probably play draw too much but I just love how a well hit one feels. It's like floating the CB.

I think the tables may favor draw more now, fifty years ago you could write that saying about draw and follow on a rock. I am watching some recent matches, I notice Filler using follow pretty often so maybe the cycles are turning more towards follow again.

Draw is flashy but there is something about a well played follow shot with the cue ball stopping not near the spot or even shading the spot, on the spot!

Hu

 

[Tin Man]

I'm guessing you're missing thick.

The amount the back spin influences the cue ball direction depends on thickness of hit. On a straight in shot the back spin can bring the cue ball straight back. As the cut angle increases the back spin starts blending with the residual energy which naturally wants to send the cue ball down the tangent line. As a result the cue ball now only comes back at an angle. And as the cut grows thinner than half ball hit there is so much tangent energy left over the influence of the draw diminishes more and more until it does next to nothing. For an example of this try hitting a very thin cut with draw and notice it doesn't 'come back' at all, it still sails down the tangent line with just slight deviation.

Why this matters is that when people hit cut shots with draw they tend to 'steer' and hit too thick, in an effort to help their draw take. See diagram below. If we shoot the 8 ball in with a roll or stun shot we are likely to scratch in the side. To avoid this we must use draw which will allow us to narrowly beat the side pocket. In this situation it is really easy to lose sight of the shot and put so much focus into beating the side that we steer and hit the 8 ball too thick, catching that rail and hanging it up.

As a side note the firmer we shoot a draw shot the longer is slides the tangent line prior to bending away from it, so another issue people have on this shot is shooting too firm with a lackluster draw stroke. The key is a very low tip for a lively draw, struck with a softer finesse stroke.

So while I haven't seen you shoot I'd guess you are shooting too thickly, and potentially too firm and not low enough on the cue ball. If you make a priority in making sure you're cutting the ball enough and double checking that prior to pulling the trigger I think you'll stop steering as often. As for the tip and speed of effective draw shots, that is another thread. Good luck!

 

[boogieman]

I think the tables may favor draw more now, fifty years ago you could write that saying about draw and follow on a rock. I am watching some recent matches, I notice Filler using follow pretty often so maybe the cycles are turning more towards follow again.

Draw is flashy but there is something about a well played follow shot with the cue ball stopping not near the spot or even shading the spot, on the spot!

Hu

Yep. Generally the pros are playing on new-ish cloth too, which makes a difference.

When I play on good cloth, like 860 or just fast clean cloth in general I stun or do drag shots a lot. If I'm out and about playing on shag carpet or dirty conditions I play some stun but mostly follow. It usually takes a half dozen shots to change from default play style. On slow cloth you have to really float the CB to get the same reaction as on fast cloth. There's less potential for error if you just roll the CB instead of fighting it.

 

[jaywheel]

Decent player
APA 4

Pick one.

 

[skip100]

APA 4's are indeed decent players in the grand scheme of things. They will routinely beat the vast majority of their friends, family, and others they encounter in the wild.

Anyway, good luck to OP. You have a lot of good ideas to sift through. My bet is Lou is right and you are putting some unintended side action on the ball when hitting it firm.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? ...

Any thoughts/help?

How much time have you spent alone practicing this shot in an effort to get better at it?

 

[philly]

APA 4's are indeed decent players in the grand scheme of things. They will routinely beat the vast majority of their friends, family, and others they encounter in the wild.

Anyway, good luck to OP. You have a lot of good ideas to sift through. My bet is Lou is right and you are putting some unintended side action on the ball when hitting it firm.

Age old story.
Everybody thinks they play better than they do.

 

[iusedtoberich]

A shot like the one in your picture is usually hit with spin combined with varying amount of draw/center/high to get the CB around the table. Straight draw on that shot is not typical. It's more intuitive to hit it with spin. Straight draw on a shot like that causes the most collision induced throw and may cause you to miss it thick (assuming your stroke and aim is good).

 

[bbb]

A shot like the one in your picture is usually hit with spin combined with varying amount of draw/center/high to get the CB around the table. Straight draw on that shot is not typical. It's more intuitive to hit it with spin. Straight draw on a shot like that causes the most collision induced throw and may cause you to miss it thick (assuming your stroke and aim is good).

Doesn't stun cause the most
Collision induced throw?
Follow and draw decreases it
Relative to stun
Need to look it up to be certain but thats how i remember it
Jmho
Icbw

 

[Poolmanis]

Doesn't stun cause the most
Collision induced throw?
Follow and draw decreases it
Relative to stun
Need to look it up to be certain but thats how i remember it
Jmho
Icbw

Yes. but slowish draw shot is almost like stun. Especially if not max rotation.

 

[bbb]

Yes. but slowish draw shot is almost like stun. Especially if not max rotation.

Good point …

 

[Renegade_56]

Decent player
APA 4

Pick one.

Exactly, and my next question would be why are you using draw on that severe of a cut? As an APA 4 I doubt you have a clue where the cueball is gonna end up anyway.

 

[Poolmanis]

A shot like the one in your picture is usually hit with spin combined with varying amount of draw/center/high to get the CB around the table. Straight draw on that shot is not typical. It's more intuitive to hit it with spin. Straight draw on a shot like that causes the most collision induced throw and may cause you to miss it thick (assuming your stroke and aim is good).

Nope. You got it wrong slow stun shot creates max friction.

 

[straightline]

You might be using a separate stroke for draw that's out of spec for cuts. Local warriors always say hit everything the same way. Center follow, draw, stop - are all the same stroke.

 

[boogieman]

Well, there's this thing called gearing english that will throw a ball. Especially when combined with a bit of floater draw. It kind of just chips the ball in the pocket like it's mother was a sand wedge. Think about spinning marbles, you want the big marble (cb) to flick the ob on the pocketing line, but you want the spin to accelerate it towards the pocket.

If you're cutting to the right you want low and a bit left (varies with CB distance, cloth, humidity... etc).if you stroke it good. But then again depending on shape you may want to shoot it with high right or middle left. This game teaches you to shoot around corners, but the shot line don't lie.

 

[j2pac]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I'm a decent player (APA rank 4), and am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?

Whenever you use english/throw/spin, to some degree you're changing the angle of the shot. I'm not sure if this answers your question, but it might be the beginning of the answer you're looking for.
Best
j2