Hitting cut shots with draw - why do I keep missing?

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?

 

[Jaden]

Should probably read all the comments.

I did, you stated that he should adjust his aim and spend time on the HAMB method. That's HORRIBLE advice. You're right, there's no need to get into the physics, but telling a lesser player to just get out there and HAMB it without proper direction is TERRIBLE advice, I can't reiterate that enough.

The longer you attempt to HAMB it, the worse you're going to play because you're going to develop a ton of bad habits that you'll have to overcome when you do get the proper direction.

The best advice is to find a quality instructor to analyze your stroke and preshot and shooting habits and give you proper instruction. Absent the ability to do so, there's many things you should do before you HAMB it. There are thousands of players who have HAMB that don't play all that great in the grand scheme of things.

The key is to HAMB properly and to gain the experience and knowledge that comes with that. There is a lot of knowledge that most people will never gain no matter how many millions of balls they hit without also getting proper direction.

Jaden

 

[ShootingArts]

I did, you stated that he should adjust his aim and spend time on the HAMB method. That's HORRIBLE advice. You're right, there's no need to get into the physics, but telling a lesser player to just get out there and HAMB it without proper direction is TERRIBLE advice, I can't reiterate that enough.

The longer you attempt to HAMB it, the worse you're going to play because you're going to develop a ton of bad habits that you'll have to overcome when you do get the proper direction.

The best advice is to find a quality instructor to analyze your stroke and preshot and shooting habits and give you proper instruction. Absent the ability to do so, there's many things you should do before you HAMB it. There are thousands of players who have HAMB that don't play all that great in the grand scheme of things.

The key is to HAMB properly and to gain the experience and knowledge that comes with that. There is a lot of knowledge that most people will never gain no matter how many millions of balls they hit without also getting proper direction.

Jaden

After having hit over two million balls in over fifty years I still have bad habits from my earliest years sneak in sometimes. A little coaching or purchasing from the best would have not only saved me a young fortune in table time, I wouldn't have these bad habits some cowboy taught me sneaking in.

Very little instructional media when I began. Today I would spend most of my money on instructional material and good instructors, the rest on structured practice and hitting balls just for the hell of it. It is easy to get so carried away striving to get better that we forget we took up pool for fun!

Hu

 

[The_JV]

I did, you stated that he should adjust his aim and spend time on the HAMB method. That's HORRIBLE advice. You're right, there's no need to get into the physics, but telling a lesser player to just get out there and HAMB it without proper direction is TERRIBLE advice, I can't reiterate that enough.

The longer you attempt to HAMB it, the worse you're going to play because you're going to develop a ton of bad habits that you'll have to overcome when you do get the proper direction.

The best advice is to find a quality instructor to analyze your stroke and preshot and shooting habits and give you proper instruction. Absent the ability to do so, there's many things you should do before you HAMB it. There are thousands of players who have HAMB that don't play all that great in the grand scheme of things.

The key is to HAMB properly and to gain the experience and knowledge that comes with that. There is a lot of knowledge that most people will never gain no matter how many millions of balls they hit without also getting proper direction.

Jaden

Bunk... Countless numbers of incredibly strong players never "benefited" from "professional" instruction.** You need to learn to walk before you can run. A player needs to grasp exceedingly simple concepts like what happens to rudimentary shots when tiny alterations are made. The point in HAMB isn't endless repetition. It's growth through discovery and determining the correct way to hit a ball, then hammering that into your subconscious through endless repetition. Mechanics, PSR, etc have nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying instruction from a competent player/coach isn't beneficial. I just don't happen to think it's the answer to everything. I also think phenomena like what happens to an already rudimentary shot when a certain spin is applied to the CB isn't something that should be explained by such a person. Some things are best left to personal discovery.

**Items in quotations are assumptions. Much like reading advice on a forum such as AZB is always going to be solid. That includes what we have posted.

 

[boogieman]

I have been involved in some sort of sport my entire life, baseball, volleyball basketball golfing, shooting pistol and rifle competitively and now pool. Each and every sport needs good hand-eye coordination and athleticism to compete well in. It's amazing how much pistol shooting and rifle shooting parallel some skill sets in shooting pool.

Archery too, at least traditional bows, I don't know about compound. The draw motion seems a bit similar to when you get down to shoot. At least if you're in line in both sports, there's something about them, I guess it's that you're doing a linear motion with a cylindrical object, and you hit what you're looking at.

If you want to see some real dedication to form watch some Japanese traditional archery on YouTube. Really neat endeavor but strangely they are more concerned about form than where they hit the target. There's the Zen and the Art of Archery book about the subject. The book is a bit long winded but it's an interesting read.

This video does an ok job at explaining the sport:

 

[garczar]

Bunk... Countless numbers of incredibly strong players never "benefited" from "professional" instruction.** You need to learn to walk before you can run. A player needs to grasp exceedingly simple concepts like what happens to rudimentary shots when tiny alterations are made. The point in HAMB isn't endless repetition. It's growth through discovery and determining the correct way to hit a ball, then hammering that into your subconscious through endless repetition. Mechanics, PSR, etc have nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying instruction from a competent player/coach isn't beneficial. I just don't happen to think it's the answer to everything. I also think phenomena like what happens to an already rudimentary shot when a certain spin is applied to the CB isn't something that should be explained by such a person. Some things are best left to personal discovery.

**Items in quotations are assumptions. Much like reading advice on a forum such as AZB is always going to be solid. That includes what we have posted.

What you see is what u get and in my case i got to see a LOT of good players when i started. I was always a good mimic in sports and seeing good technique just rubbed off i guess. Not knocking formal teaching in any way but its not required to play good to great pool.

 

[The_JV]

What you see is what u get and in my case i got to see a LOT of good players when i started. I was always a good mimic in sports and seeing good technique just rubbed off i guess. Not knocking formal teaching in any way but its not required to play good to great pool.

Exactly, and I'm no different. Not that I was surrounded by extremely good players when I was cutting my teeth, but the main game was 12ft snooker. Fundamentals are paramount in that game, and what I gleaned during those formative years has stuck with me.

That said, and to the point I've been trying to make in this thread. I originally had a pretty stupid bridge configuration (hindsight). It made me unique so I thought it was cool, but it made adjustment less reliable. The man who eventually corrected me wouldn't give developing players the time of day until you manage to make it into the food chain. He also couldn't be bothered to explain in depth the advice/comments he would make. If you were too inexperienced to understand, then the advice was moot to begin with. However, and the point. I already had a grasp of both the game and what it took to play, so when he spoke I listened and more importantly, understood.

Simply being told everything, doesn't teach you anything.

 

[ShootingArts]

Simply being told everything, doesn't teach you anything.

That should be chiseled in stone somewhere! Hand things to people and they don't realize the value.

There's the Zen and the Art of Archery book about the subject.

Never read the book but read about it. One odd thing, the author decided to approach zen through archery. It isn't clear if he realized that his archery master he studied under for twenty years or so didn't practice zen.

Hu

 

[Mensabum]

Good advice, Mensabum, that I had to learn the hard way. Most people at my hall punch the ball and are usually decelerating on draw strokes at the point of contact.

Start with shorter draw shots to master and then work your way back. Pull the cue back like an arrow, pause and accelerate smoothly thru the cue ball - meaning the tip should go 6-8 inches past the point of contact as you follow thru

Thank you my friend.
I'll never steer an AZer wrong.
If you want to learn that snap faster, jack up over the short rail, CB 3 to 4 inches away, and pull the rock back to short rail off an OB 5 to 6 diamonds down table. You'll figure it out real quick. This is a pro level shot to get back to square when there's no lane thru otherwise.

 

[Mensabum]

After having hit over two million balls in over fifty years I still have bad habits from my earliest years sneak in sometimes. A little coaching or purchasing from the best would have not only saved me a young fortune in table time, I wouldn't have these bad habits some cowboy taught me sneaking in.

Very little instructional media when I began. Today I would spend most of my money on instructional material and good instructors, the rest on structured practice and hitting balls just for the hell of it. It is easy to get so carried away striving to get better that we forget we took up pool for fun!

Hu

We had to pay for our info back then. Unless you were friends or had a relative. You were lucky if there was a true player in the hall you were in who would play you some cheap and answer questions along the way.
That's mostly how we got our goodies back then.
Nobody read pool books. Heck, we didn't even know there were any. Lol.
Not that we would've read them anyway. Lol.
Pay to play.
Bcuz of that, nowadays I'll answer any question or give a helping hand to anyone who asks - for free. As it should be.

 

[Jaden]

Bunk... Countless numbers of incredibly strong players never "benefited" from "professional" instruction.** You need to learn to walk before you can run. A player needs to grasp exceedingly simple concepts like what happens to rudimentary shots when tiny alterations are made. The point in HAMB isn't endless repetition. It's growth through discovery and determining the correct way to hit a ball, then hammering that into your subconscious through endless repetition. Mechanics, PSR, etc have nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying instruction from a competent player/coach isn't beneficial. I just don't happen to think it's the answer to everything. I also think phenomena like what happens to an already rudimentary shot when a certain spin is applied to the CB isn't something that should be explained by such a person. Some things are best left to personal discovery.

**Items in quotations are assumptions. Much like reading advice on a forum such as AZB is always going to be solid. That includes what we have posted.

Maybe not professional instruction but every one to a man had a high level player as a mentor early on.

If you want to maximize your potential, you'll get a good mentor or high level instruction as early as possible without HittingAMB first...



Jaden

 

[straightline]

Maybe not professional instruction but every one to a man had a high level player as a mentor early on.

If you want to maximize your potential, you'll get a good mentor or high level instruction as early as possible without HittingAMB first...



Jaden

If you wanna play good, you gotta have some kind of model to emulate. Nothing wrong with sculpting your own way otherwise. Not hamb could be a valid aesthetic too. Judging from the archer video, looking superior is ok too.

Pool is pretty simple. The stick is pretty much as straight as it needs to be, learn to use it as such.

 

[Jaden]

If you wanna play good, you gotta have some kind of model to emulate. Nothing wrong with sculpting your own way otherwise. Not hamb could be a valid aesthetic too. Judging from the archer video, looking superior is ok too.

Pool is pretty simple. The stick is pretty much as straight as it needs to be, learn to use it as such.

And It's more than just having someone to emulate. There are concepts, that shy of being a genius level intellect, you're just NOT going to be able to figure out on your own without someone explaining them to you. Often, you won't understand them until years AFTER they're explained to you.

The reality is, that you have to not only have high level mentorship or instruction, you have to also HAMB it up AFTER getting the instruction. The key is after because you will have little epiphanies as you HAMB it up that help you to understand and be able to apply that understanding on the table.

Jaden

 

[Poolmanis]

And It's more than just having someone to emulate. There are concepts, that shy of being a genius level intellect, you're just NOT going to be able to figure out on your own without someone explaining them to you. Often, you won't understand them until years AFTER they're explained to you.

The reality is, that you have to not only have high level mentorship or instruction, you have to also HAMB it up AFTER getting the instruction. The key is after because you will have little epiphanies as you HAMB it up that help you to understand and be able to apply that understanding on the table.

Jaden

Yeah. Im from little town that had zero good pool players. I learned all by myself. Ordering books, videos and practicing a LOT(HAMB). like 20 years. I was okay but not getting better anymore. Then my Rheumatism got bad and I had to quit about 7 years.
Came back and decided to learn game different way. Just because i love the game. I still learned by myself but took different approach. Now I played about 9 years after break and age of 48 im still getting better. I also practice way less than ever. All my improvement is because I gained a lot new knowledge. Stroke is worse than back in days but it is good enough. I don´t practice mechanics really anymore. Just sometimes trying to fix something if errors get bad.
I really think if I got access all this information that I got today.. my career in Pool and Billiards would be a lot different..

 

[straightline]

And It's more than just having someone to emulate. There are concepts, that shy of being a genius level intellect, you're just NOT going to be able to figure out on your own without someone explaining them to you. Often, you won't understand them until years AFTER they're explained to you.

The reality is, that you have to not only have high level mentorship or instruction, you have to also HAMB it up AFTER getting the instruction. The key is after because you will have little epiphanies as you HAMB it up that help you to understand and be able to apply that understanding on the table.

Jaden

I'd file that with, "__if you want to be that kind of player___".
Nothing is concrete except the ground floor you're on. The good players win some, lose some, guys - or girls come in; kick their butt. Your initial heroes included.
It's gonna take a lotta work and extensive customization and no sure fire way to get it done. You love it enough to keep on or nuthin'.

 

[Mensabum]

I

Bunk... Countless numbers of incredibly strong players never "benefited" from "professional" instruction.** You need to learn to walk before you can run. A player needs to grasp exceedingly simple concepts like what happens to rudimentary shots when tiny alterations are made. The point in HAMB isn't endless repetition. It's growth through discovery and determining the correct way to hit a ball, then hammering that into your subconscious through endless repetition. Mechanics, PSR, etc have nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying instruction from a competent player/coach isn't beneficial. I just don't happen to think it's the answer to everything. I also think phenomena like what happens to an already rudimentary shot when a certain spin is applied to the CB isn't something that should be explained by such a person. Some things are best left to personal discovery.

**Items in quotations are assumptions. Much like reading advice on a forum such as AZB is always going to be solid. That includes what we have posted.

Maybe not professional instruction but every one to a man had a high level player as a mentor early on.

If you want to maximize your potential, you'll get a good mentor or high level instruction as early as possible without HittingAMB first...



Jaden

I think that's what gives you the motivation to keep playing. To hamb. You saw what was possible by watching whoever it was that showed you the game initially and that's all it took for most of us.
We were Hooked!!!

 

[Mensabum]

What you see is what u get and in my case i got to see a LOT of good players when i started. I was always a good mimic in sports and seeing good technique just rubbed off i guess. Not knocking formal teaching in any way but its not required to play good to great pool.

I gotta agree. We're in the minority, for sure, but we are out there.

 

[lfigueroa]

IMO, the key to whether you're going to be successful with HAMB, on your own is: your ability to concentrate and observe; how much body awareness you have; your willingness to experiment, observe, and change some more; and how good your memory is.

IOWs, you have to be able to learn from what you are doing.
You have to be able to note the differences, good and bad, that small changes in body positioning and movement make.
You have to be willing to fail much more than succeed. It's the old, "Every bullseye is the result of a thousand misses."
And of course you have to be able to recall what worked and what did not.

Otherwise, you're just hitting a million balls.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jbart65]

My take after all this: Study the game AND HAMB.

I HAMB but plateaued. It was only after I studied the game in a systematic way that I realized what I didn't know. As I learned basic and advanced concepts, I got much, much better. And quickly.

Even just learning little things like cut-induced throw was huge. I subconsciously adjusted for it after HAMB, but just knowing about it virtually eliminated CIT misses. Ditto for SIT and cue elevation.

I was still missing balls I shouldn't, though, and couldn't draw at length. So I studied some more, and lo and behold, I realized my stroke was the issue.

I learned a lot of the wrong lessons HAMB over the years. Sure, I became a good shotmaker, but not a high-level consistent one.

Relearning how to shoot correctly has been an ... ordeal. The reward of good habits are starting to come though.

 

[ShootingArts]

Well it is a fine time to put in a plug for Li'l Joe's DVD's. When I got them I was torn between amazed and mad. Had I been able to buy these when I first started playing it would have cut at least two or three years off of my learning curve!

HAMB can get it done, I have proven that. It is far from the easiest or fastest way however. Somebody can pretty easily build a workable stance and stroke these days. Then parting with $69.95 for Joe Villalpando's first two DVD's and a few months working with them will put you where I was at after five or six thousand hours using HAMB and just battering away at the table and balls mostly figuring things out on my own.

The information is available other places too now I believe but Joe's is what I found first and I don't believe anyone is offering anything cheaper. After the time spent with Joe V's stuff spend some time with another Joe, Tucker. With his break information you can have a very solid break and defend against racking tricks.

With serious effort I think a student could move from ground zero to somewhere in the "B" player range in six months or so. That was impossible when I started. The information just wasn't out there for public consumption. A few people knew but like the man that mentored me a little, they weren't handing it out for $69.95 or on youtube if you are willing to dig it up in bits and pieces. They learned the hard way and figured others should too.

I still hear Jessie's growl when somebody wanted lessons. "I'll give them all the lessons they want, for ten dollars a game!" Damned pricey in the sixties.

Hu

 

[garczar]

I gotta agree. We're in the minority, for sure, but we are out there.

We could'a been on the 'X Files'.