Holland's shot on 6 and 8 in World Cup final rack

[Cardigan Kid]

It's interesting enough to warrant a discussion on it.

1. Even after niels and Nick discussed it, niels went for the stop shot on the 6 which left minimal angle on the seven, for Nick to come up with tough leave on 8. Was this a miss hit on van denbergs part or just bad decision to stop shot on 6.

2. Niels shot on 8, he is jacked up like he was going to put massive draw and come back for 9. But did anyone else think he had a little angle on 8 and would have followed it off rail and at least back for a long shot on 9?

Disclaimer: this is not second guessing, these two are back to back runner ups for world cup of pool which is impossible to repeat as champion. So to accomplish what they did means that they are both monsters and their pool knowledge is impeccable. I just want to get into their heads and see what they saw.

Update: link to video
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pd-71DVMcJU
The shots in question are at the 1 hr 50 min point.

 

[beetle]

Yeah, I didn't understand that. Neils took a time out on that shot and then didn't do anything with it, leaving Van den Berg a tough shot to fall on the 8 nicely. Still, that 8 was very makeable, and Neils missed that one. I have to say, Neils blundered twice there.

 

[PoolBum]

I actually thought the shape on the 7 was ok. I thought Nick just over-cooked it shooting the 7 and so ended up too close to the cushion and too straight on the 8, leaving Niels a tough jacked-up draw shot on the 8 (he may have even had to try and cheat the pocket on that shot as well, not sure). I'd have to be at the table to see what the angle on the 7 really was though, to decide whether it was too straight for easy shape on the 8.

Of course, Boyes missed a very makeable 8 right after that and, but for an extremely fortunate roll, I think we'd be talking about Holland as the champs right now instead of England.

 

[smoooothstroke]

I stopped watching after the U.S. was eliminated but...

IMO the proper way to play scotch doubles is not to try to coach your partner or even indicate what shape you prefer him/her to leave you.

When I play scotch I play my shot and either stand still or move to behind my partner or leave the area of the table.You never want to speak or gesture in a negative or positive manner after you or anyone else shoots.

If Earl and Shane had played this way they would still be running racks.

I understand they are pros and have great confidence and concentration but given the 30 second shot clock there is nothing you can do to help your partner with his turn at the table.The exception to this is the roll-out after the break.

Many amateurs actually play better at scotch then they do at singles because there is a different mindset to playing scotch doubles.You must play each shot as a single shot and have no expectations on your partner,every time you come to the table it is a new game essentially.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I stopped watching after the U.S. was eliminated but...

IMO the proper way to play scotch doubles is not to try to coach your partner or even indicate what shape you prefer him/her to leave you.

When I play scotch I play my shot and either stand still or move to behind my partner or leave the area of the table.You never want to speak or gesture in a negative or positive manner after you or anyone else shoots.

If Earl and Shane had played this way they would still be running racks.

I understand they are pros and have great confidence and concentration but given the 30 second shot clock there is nothing you can do to help your partner with his turn at the table.The exception to this is the roll-out after the break.

Many amateurs actually play better at scotch then they do at singles because there is a different mindset to playing scotch doubles.You must play each shot as a single shot and have no expectations on your partner,every time you come to the table it is a new game essentially.

This is an awesome observation. Very true.

 

[King T]

Yep! You got it right!

It's interesting enough to warrant a discussion on it.

1. Even after niels and Nick discussed it, niels went for the stop shot on the 6 which left minimal angle on the seven, for Nick to come up with tough leave on 8. Was this a miss hit on van denbergs part or just bad decision to stop shot on 6.

2. Niels shot on 8, he is jacked up like he was going to put massive draw and come back for 9. But did anyone else think he had a little angle on 8 and would have followed it off rail and at least back for a long shot on 9?

.

Yep, that was bad position on the 7..., he should have left the angle to punch the 7 in a force the cue to the side rail towards the 9 ball or gone around the 7 for a better angle.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Yeah, I didn't understand that. Neils took a time out on that shot and then didn't do anything with it, leaving Van den Berg a tough shot to fall on the 8 nicely. Still, that 8 was very makeable, and Neils missed that one. I have to say, Neils blundered twice there.

The link is up thanks to genipool14....
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pd-71DVMcJU

The shot on the six comes up after the 1hr 50 min time.

It is pretty amazing that we can super analyze professional billiards in full Hd video from our phones and discuss over many miles of distance in a lightning fast modern era. Just think how good players of yesteryear would've been with this type of training or access to other professionals. It's amazing.

 

[efirkey]

I too felt the position on the 7 ball was the main error. Watching it in real time I felt all he had to do was roll forward a couple of inches and leave a small angle to get back to 8, but the pros should be able to execute any of those shots.

In my opinion Neils had to decide to either cinch the 8 and let Nick shot a very hard shot on the 9 or shot a very hard shot on the 8 and leave an easy shot for Nick on the 9. The way Neils has been playing this year I am not surprised he decided to shot the harder shot.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I felt the position on the 7 was perfect. It left a simple one rail route to the 8, with plenty of angle so that the shot did not have to be pounded. I think the error was in the execution of the 7 to the 8. There was too much high on the CB, and the CB bent forward, making it get too close to the rail where they were then in deep trouble.

<==== Disclaimer, C player

 

[iusedtoberich]

Interestingly, this layout is very similar to the "Blew BIH on 3 balls/WWYD" layout" discussion we had a few weeks ago. Many of the concepts discussed in that thread are applicable to the layout of this thread.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=373115

 

[BRussell]

I actually thought the shape on the 7 was ok. I thought Nick just over-cooked it shooting the 7 and so ended up too close to the cushion and too straight on the 8, leaving Niels a tough jacked-up draw shot on the 8 (he may have even had to try and cheat the pocket on that shot as well, not sure). I'd have to be at the table to see what the angle on the 7 really was though, to decide whether it was too straight for easy shape on the 8.

That's what I think too. Nick had a good angle on the 7, he just left it too close to the rail. Any shot other than second-to-last to win the tournament and the shot on the 8 wouldn't have been a problem.

Perhaps Niels should have gone forward with it instead of jacking up for draw.

 

[PoolBum]

I too felt the position on the 7 ball was the main error. Watching it in real time I felt all he had to do was roll forward a couple of inches and leave a small angle to get back to 8, but the pros should be able to execute any of those shots.

If you roll past the straight-in angle on the 7, that angle can get too steep very fast. I think it was easier to leave the other angle for the natural follow to the bottom rail off the 7 by just shooting a stop shot on the 6. If you look at the shot on the 7 from the corner pocket in the video, there's definitely enough angle there to follow up table for the 8. I just think his adrenaline got the best of him and Nick overcooked the follow.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

This is from niels Facebook page....

All players made mistakes but we still managed to take the lead 6-3. That's where we let the match slip away. We didn't get out a pretty easy rack and it went 6-5 very fast. We still went up 9-7, then I broke dry and they ran 2 strong racks for 9-9. Darren scratched on the break and we had a nice layout. Nick played the 7 to the 8 almost perfect but the qball landed a mm from the side rail with an angle. I had to Jack up and get back for the 9. Hard shot and missed it. Then Karl missed the 8 but it landed behind the 9.... wtf......Nick kicked and gave a shot, they ran out.
We both didn't feel good at the beginning of the event so we are both pleased with our performance, but of course bitter to come so close Again and not grab it. That's the game, what went wrong, what to correct, take it on the chin and move on! Eurotour Next Wednesday in Holland and US open right after. Meeting my two ladies tomorrow at Amsterdam airport so great to see them in the meantime It was an exciting week! Tnx for the support!"

Apparently he didn't have the room to go forward on eight since he didn't suggest it. his only option was to draw back.

 

[shinobi]

Apparently he didn't have the room to go forward on eight since he didn't suggest it. his only option was to draw back.

He could have gone forward but would have had to hit it pretty sporty to get reasonable on the 9.

Can't really blame him for missing the 8 given how much he was jacked up, and there wasn't much room for error.

The error was the shape on the 7.

 

[shinobi]

By the way, when I saw Karl miss and left the 8-ball hidden behind the 9, I was expecting Nick to softly bump the 8 and leave no good shot and probably no good return safety either. But that might have even been difficult to execute from where he was at.

 

[smashmouth]

the 7 was an error yes, but the 8 was too

the follow shot seemed way too high risk but so was the missed draw shot

maybe a safety would have been in order?

 

[iusedtoberich]

By the way, when I saw Karl miss and left the 8-ball hidden behind the 9, I was expecting Nick to softly bump the 8 and leave no good shot and probably no good return safety either. But that might have even been difficult to execute from where he was at.

I think the 8 was frozen, but not sure. The camera panned away from the ref as he was examining the 8 to the rail. If it was frozen, that could explain why he kicked at the 8 so hard.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think the original position on the 8 that Neils was faced...... with a follow shot would be impossible. The CB would end up near the side pocket, resulting in a cross side bank on the 9, as the best case scenario.

 

[JC]

This is from niels Facebook page....

All players made mistakes but we still managed to take the lead 6-3. That's where we let the match slip away. We didn't get out a pretty easy rack and it went 6-5 very fast. We still went up 9-7, then I broke dry and they ran 2 strong racks for 9-9. Darren scratched on the break and we had a nice layout. Nick played the 7 to the 8 almost perfect but the qball landed a mm from the side rail with an angle. I had to Jack up and get back for the 9. Hard shot and missed it. Then Karl missed the 8 but it landed behind the 9.... wtf......Nick kicked and gave a shot, they ran out.
We both didn't feel good at the beginning of the event so we are both pleased with our performance, but of course bitter to come so close Again and not grab it. That's the game, what went wrong, what to correct, take it on the chin and move on! Eurotour Next Wednesday in Holland and US open right after. Meeting my two ladies tomorrow at Amsterdam airport so great to see them in the meantime It was an exciting week! Tnx for the support!"

Apparently he didn't have the room to go forward on eight since he didn't suggest it. his only option was to draw back.

He could have cinched the ball and left a cut shot down the rail that his partner could have made about 90% of the time as the nine was off the rail about a chalk width. He never considered this option as witnessed by his lack of going over there and looking at what the nine would look like from leaving the cue ball over there. It wasn't ideal but it wasn't that bad.

What happened was a study in choking. How and why it happens. He knew he already used his extension and panicked. The proof of this was in the shot itself, which was executed at about double the power required to make it happen. Classic fight or flight reflex. Good for survival but not so much for pool.

JC

 

[shinobi]

I think the 8 was frozen, but not sure. The camera panned away from the ref as he was examining the 8 to the rail. If it was frozen, that could explain why he kicked at the 8 so hard.

It looks frozen in the video, but Nigel inspects it and says nothing.

Definitely if it was frozen, Nick had no choice.