Hopkins vs. Ortmann match

Snapshot9

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
I watched a finals match from 1997 between Allen Hopkins and Oliver Ortmann yesterday, and I must admit, I was shocked. I had not seen Hopkins in competition before.

Somehow, I had gotten the impression that Hopkins had many properties of being a 'natural' type player, but that was quickly dispelled yesterday. He is strictly a 'Logic' type player. He took more time looking at each shot than I thought he would (like a nervous Nelly), had many 'end of stroke' motions that were not in keeping with someone of his stature in the pro world.

It caught me offguard, and I kind of had to readjust my opinion of his shooting somewhat. I know he has won many tournaments in his day, but his style of play, particularly his stroke and follow through, looked more amateurish than pro level. He did play pretty good, but Oliver won in 2 straight race to 5 sets.

It seemed as if Allen was making everything harder than it was. It was like watching someone play that was in 'over his head'.

Did anyone else watch this match? It was on ESPN Classic.
 
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Sounds like Allen was off a bit that day , his stroke is his own style that nobody can repeat , but when he was on everything went down , tell him you think he looks amatuerish and ask if he wants to play some :)
 
Man oh man, I hope that didn't change your opinion of him. His prime was in the 80's, and also the 70's IIRC. I've got some older matches of his from the mid-80's to early 90's. He was such a tremendous player back then. Even with his short, jabby stroke, he had a powerful break, and his cueball control was top-notch. He was basically a tremendous all-around player like Nick Varner and Jim Rempe. He didn't have a real powerful stroke like Earl, but he rarely needed one. One of the very BEST percentage players of all time. Never took a difficult shot to get to another difficult shot. Hopkins was famous in one-pocket for playing the score better than almost anyone.

I have one match from a 9ball tournament in the 80's (might have been the US Open), and Earl has Allen down 7-0, and Allen comes back and wins 11-10 (or was it 9-8?? I'll check).
 
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i have never seen someone with such bad fundmentals play so good, how he dose it i'll never know, but he is a true champion, and i hope his tournment idea works, he is trustworthy.
 
I have known him to bet it up many times and still will play for the cash and he wins most of his bets even though watching his stroke ain't real pretty.--Leonard
 
Hopkins is one of the best all-around pool players in history. I forget what year, but he won the World Straight Pool and US Open 9-ball in the same year. Gambles with his own money. He doesn't poke at the ball - he accelerates through it. The lack of a big back-stroke really benefited him - it broke down a lot less over long sessions.

Jay or Freddy - How do you guys rate Hopkin's game? In his prime, has he ever lost 1000 pt straight pool match? He might of, although I'm not aware. Personally, in his prime, I put him up there with anyone all-time.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Hopkins is one of the best all-around pool players in history. I forget what year, but he won the World Straight Pool and US Open 9-ball in the same year. Gambles with his own money. He doesn't poke at the ball - he accelerates through it. The lack of a big back-stroke really benefited him - it broke down a lot less over long sessions.

Jay or Freddy - How do you guys rate Hopkin's game? In his prime, has he ever lost 1000 pt straight pool match? He might of, although I'm not aware. Personally, in his prime, I put him up there with anyone all-time.
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Very simply, one of the best in his day. Definitely a top ten player for most of his career. Right there with Varner, Mizerak, Sigel and Rempe as an all around player. HOF material. He beat everyone from time to time. I bet on Allen a zillion times, and won about 90% of the time.

He is a thoroughbred when it comes to gambling too. Long considered the best of the East Coast gamblers. He was respected for his tournament play and his gambling ability too.

I don't care what he looks like. He knows how to get the job done and take down the cheese. VERY knowledgeable with lots of heart. Allen Hopkins is the real deal, when it comes to playing pool. He's got my vote.
 
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I was surprised at how much (and badly) he was popping up after many (but not all) shots. But, they were generally going in...
 
Hopkins has a style that can look very bad when he is off his game. It's certainly not classic, but like others on here have said, he is a champion and a great all-around player.

I have an Accu-Stats tape of the Valley Forge 9-Ball finals from December, 1989. Hopkins beat Kim Davenport 13-5. Kim played almost perfectly.
 
Maybe we was off his game.

Recall the past 14.1 World Championships? He was the only one to defeat both Thorsten Hohmann *AND* Thomas Engert. (who placed 1st and 2nd, respectively)

He beat Hohmann in the group stages, and then later he bested Engert (150-38) in the modified double elimination format (similar to the WPBA format).

Hopkins, from what I've seen and heard, (from those who *really* know) is one of the best tactical players, in addition to being a natural shot-maker.

I hate to think you saw a match where he wasn't *on* because he's always going to be one of my favorite pool heros (both as a player and a promoter).

He showed true guts last 14.1 WC, and the crowd enjoyed every second of it. True, it was held in NJ but, he did us all well with a display of pool that I can only hope to one day mimic. He also managed a run of 123 in the tournament (during the aforementioned match against Engert.) There's a reason he's HOF-bound.

Snapshot9 said:
I watched a finals match from 1997 between Allen Hopkins and Oliver Ortmann yesterday, and I must admit, I was shocked. I had not seen Hopkins in competition before.

Somehow, I had gotten the impression that Hopkins had many properties of being a 'natural' type player, but that was quickly dispelled yesterday. He is strictly a 'Logic' type player. He took more time looking at each shot than I thought he would (like a nervous Nelly), had many 'end of stroke' motions that were not in keeping with someone of his stature in the pro world.

It caught me offguard, and I kind of had to readjust my opinion of his shooting somewhat. I know he has won many tournaments in his day, but his style of play, particularly his stroke and follow through, looked more amateurish than pro level. He did play pretty good, but Oliver won in 2 straight race to 5 sets.

It seemed as if Allen was making everything harder than it was. It was like watching someone play that was in 'over his head'.

Did anyone else watch this match? It was on ESPN Classic.
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Should already be in the Hall of Fame

Allen Hopkins has always been the real deal. Played super in tournaments and for the cash in all games/tables. Ducked nobody! Never understood why he is so underated.
 
JG-in-KY said:
Allen Hopkins has always been the real deal. Played super in tournaments and for the cash in all games/tables. Ducked nobody! Never understood why he is so underated.
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Underated by who?
 
jay helfert said:
Underated by who?
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I agree Jay.

I can think of only a handfull of players who've been able to maintain the level of play that Allen has exhibited for 30+ years. He's won dozens of titles, gambles fiercely - almost exclusively on his on bankroll, does an excellent job as a commentator, and has done as much for pool as anyone.

If anyone in the pool world considers him "underrated" they just aren't paying attention.

And BTW, the only reason Allen was not inducted this past March was that Sang Chun Lee could NOT be overlooked. The late 3-Cushion player completely dominated the sport for over a decade, and his early demise of stomach cancer at the age of 50 probably added to the BCA's HOF Boards desire to honor him.

I'll bet anyone a cool dime and give 3-1 odds that Allen gets in the next time they vote. (BCA HOF Board members are excluded from this offer, lol)
 
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Allen has always been one of my favorite players/people. I got to watch him play up close every year at the annual 14.1 event at the Cue Corner/D&D billiards. I have never seen him angry at anyone, always the consumate Pro and completely loyal to the game, especially 14.1.

I'll say this....when the other pros (Rempe, Sigel, Calolvito, Baruti, Maidhoff)were waiting for a match, they were watching Allen run balls! He plays the tightest most correct patterns I have ever seen.

AND......he still plays top speed to this day.

Gerry
 
jay helfert said:
Underated by who?
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Well he isn't in the Hall of Fame yet, but certainly has the creditials. I guess I'll just say he is "underappreciated"- at least by the general pool population. JMHO
 
he can't play at all

I watched him play a day or two ago too. He made pretty much every mistake that he tells beginners not to do in his tips that he puts into the broadcasts of the events he produces. On his follow through after one shot his stick was at almost a forty-five degree angle, if it can be said he has a follow through. Of course there was that one little minor detail, the balls were falling!

This is my third time around playing pool. The first time, I was entirely self taught with no books or tapes, no mentor for over 95% of the time. It was funny to watch a top pro use some of the "left handed english" shots that I had learned through trial and error too. Are they really wrong when the balls are falling?

Hu
 
Fatboy said:
i have never seen someone with such bad fundmentals play so good, how he dose it i'll never know, but he is a true champion, and i hope his tournment idea works, he is trustworthy.
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allen has good fundamentals. his arm, shoulder and head alignment are perfect. he just chooses to "stab" at the shot without much of a back stroke that's all. i've played around with his method of shooting and i'll tell ya' what, there's something to it because it works well for me on medium to short distance shots, with good control of position. i wouldn't use this method for my game but then again i've been playing my way for too long the same as him has with his way.
 
ShootingArts said:
I watched him play a day or two ago too. He made pretty much every mistake that he tells beginners not to do in his tips that he puts into the broadcasts of the events he produces. On his follow through after one shot his stick was at almost a forty-five degree angle, if it can be said he has a follow through. Of course there was that one little minor detail, the balls were falling!

This is my third time around playing pool. The first time, I was entirely self taught with no books or tapes, no mentor for over 95% of the time. It was funny to watch a top pro use some of the "left handed english" shots that I had learned through trial and error too. Are they really wrong when the balls are falling?

Hu
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Psst, don't tell anyone, but it's all those years having to hustle games by looking bad. He had one major problem. He played too good! He couldn't get a game unless he looked like a dork.

Allen has that "hustle" stroke ingrained in him. Just take a moment and really watch how he goes thru the ball. It's a clean hit! And like you said, the balls keep falling. And they have for nearly 40 years. Maybe he's just lucky. lol
 
I've always suspected that players who have very little backstroke developed that from playing in a room that may have been too small for the table they were playing on.

When I was 11 years old, my step dad bought me and my three brothers an 8 foot Minnesota Fats "Pacer" model pool table, replete with the best particle board available instead of "slate". The problem was this table was set up in our cellar that measured 13ft x 8ft. And, there were two furnaces, one on each side of the foot and end rails that overhung into the small area that was available to shoot in. 60-70% of the shots on that table were massee' shots or at least elevated. Any back swing would bang into either a tin furnace or shelves or a wall. Two years later, I started walking to our local bowling alley where they had 4 9 foor AMF tables in a giant room that had no walls or anything else to bang in to. It took me a couple of years I think to unlearn my stroke. I wonder if he had a table in a small cellar growing up?

Lastly, when I watch a tape of Hopkins, I like to try and guess when he will actually strike the cueball. I try and see if there is even any tiny bit of difference in the last back stroke before he actually shoots the shot and there is none. His last warm up stroke is the same length as all his others. He has a VERY REPEATABLE STROKE that works for him. A few years ago, I tried just for fun to see what it felt like to shoot a game with no backstroke. A lot of the technical flaws that were pointed out in this thread were going on when I tried his stroke. It does not work for me. It made him a multiple World Champion in multiple games!
 
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