Horizontal Draw

[Island Drive]

Mitch visualize this.
Your at the head of the table.... you just broke the rack.

One example....
Your next ball is on the left side long rail/frozen two diamonds from the corner pocket.
Your cue ball stops in the table middle, between the side pockets, and you want draw the back towards the head string, missing the side pocket.

a. If you cue whitey at 9 o'clock, and hit the ball and the rail at the same time, you will always overcut the ball in this situation.
b. But in the same shot set up, you hit the obj. ball fuller/thicker at the same swing speed.
c. The gearing action of the horizontal spinning cue ball cuts the ball into the pocket. ( a developed feel ) like any shot.
d. As the horizontal spinning cue ball comes off the rail, it grabs the nose cloth Making it come back towards you and the head string.

In my gambling years more than once I've done this when I know I'm not able to get back up table.... I know damp cloth, and dry desert AZ cloth play completely different/wet Grabs.
I wet my index finger slightly and touch the rail nose Not leaving a damp spot, but pretending to help visualize what I'm trying to do.
The cue ball with horizonal spinning cue ball... it GRABS a ton more with a damp rail nose....allows whitey to get back up table towards me better than low draw ever could.

bm

 

[3kushn]

Did you really mean 9 o'clock rather than 3 o'clock?

 

[Black-Balled]

Mitch visualize this.

I wet my index finger slightly and touch the rail nose Not leaving a damp spot, but pretending to help visualize what I'm trying to do
The cue ball with horizonal spinning cue ball... it GRABS a ton more with a damp rail nose....allows whitey to get back up table towards me better than low draw ever could.

bm

 

[jasonlaus]

I think I am going to need video to have any concept of what OP is talking about.

Me thinks that would confuse us more

 

[straightline]

Low outside against the long rail brings the ball back.

 

[Island Drive]

Low outside against the long rail brings the ball back.

True, but not as much.

 

[Tin Man]

I think the confusion comes from what we mean by 'draw'.

Pool players define draw as a technique in which we hit below center on the cue ball causing it to spin backwards as it moves across the felt, and such that upon impact the cue ball comes backwards of the tangent line. If the shot is straight the cue ball will draw straight back (180 degrees), if it is a cut the cue ball will move away at an angle but one greater than 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

What I think Island Drive is saying is that when the cue ball is being played into a rail spin will influence the path of the cue ball, and in some cases extreme spin can duplicate the path of a back spinning cue ball. See diagram below. The green line is the tangent line reflected off the rail to indicate the cue ball path on a perfectly struck stun shot. The solid black line is the path of draw, in which the cue ball comes back of the tangent line en route to the rail and then bounces off the cushion at a natural angle. The second path represents a rolling cue ball with a healthy 9 o'clock left spin, in which the cue ball rolls forward of the tangent line and hits the cushion closer to straight on, but then the spin opens up the angle so it follows nearly the same path.

In this case you could say you can bring the cue ball far back of the tangent line using straight sidespin. This is true. And you could say you can obtain the same path on the cue ball by using check side spin as by using draw. In this case this is true as well. What you can't say is that sidespin becomes draw off of the rail, because cueing on the side of the ball doesn't cause the cue ball to spin backwards across the felt. Saying sidespin becomes draw is inaccurate and confusing. That said, learning the applications of maximum sidespin as an alternative to draw is well worth the effort and critical to top play.

 

[Island Drive]

Did you really mean 9 o'clock rather than 3 o'clock?

Nope, 3 o'clock would then be inside.

''Post #21...''
''Your next ball is on the left side long rail/frozen two diamonds from the corner pocket.''
Your cue ball stops in the table middle, between the side pockets, and you want draw the back towards the head string, missing the side pocket.

 

[3kushn]

My 3C mentor would make this shot without draw. He was a big man with a powerful stroke. When the shot came up I'd stand behind him to see what was going on. He hit it with 9 o'clock. He was a US Champion with better aim than me. I can get the angle sometimes but not the power.

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/11492.png

I tried Bill's setup a few times on my carom table. I paid more attention to the CB, therefore I don't know if any attempts would have pocketed the ball, so wasn't a good test. I did get past the side pocket on every attempt with just 3 o'clock, but again, what kind of hit did I get.

With max draw and max side in that area 7 o'clock I "believe" I got better results, but I'm not Bill.

In the late 70's? & early 80's I watched Bill play nearly all comers (sometimes the negotiations went South) We both lived in the same college town in S. Illinois. Carbondale was on many Road Players Maps. Johnston City had ended one year before I got there, but Carbondale was a stop on their maps. Mostly cause of Bill and his good friend Dennis Geiske. Not sure of the spelling. And of course Fats was just up the road about 10 miles.

 

[Island Drive]

I think the confusion comes from what we mean by 'draw'.

Pool players define draw as a technique in which we hit below center on the cue ball causing it to spin backwards as it moves across the felt, and such that upon impact the cue ball comes backwards of the tangent line. If the shot is straight the cue ball will draw straight back (180 degrees), if it is a cut the cue ball will move away at an angle but one greater than 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

What I think Island Drive is saying is that when the cue ball is being played into a rail spin will influence the path of the cue ball, and in some cases extreme spin can duplicate the path of a back spinning cue ball. See diagram below. The green line is the tangent line reflected off the rail to indicate the cue ball path on a perfectly struck stun shot. The solid black line is the path of draw, in which the cue ball comes back of the tangent line en route to the rail and then bounces off the cushion at a natural angle. The second path represents a rolling cue ball with a healthy 9 o'clock left spin, in which the cue ball rolls forward of the tangent line and hits the cushion closer to straight on, but then the spin opens up the angle so it follows nearly the same path.

In this case you could say you can bring the cue ball far back of the tangent line using straight sidespin. This is true. And you could say you can obtain the same path on the cue ball by using check side spin as by using draw. In this case this is true as well. What you can't say is that sidespin becomes draw off of the rail, because cueing on the side of the ball doesn't cause the cue ball to spin backwards across the felt. Saying sidespin becomes draw is inaccurate and confusing. That said, learning the applications of maximum sidespin as an alternative to draw is well worth the effort and critical to top play.

View attachment 810405

Nope, that's not the point I'm getting at.

I'm not talking about cue ball squirt....

 

[straightline]

True, but not as much.

I'm thinking on straightish ins from a distance; cuts probably not.

 

[3kushn]

Nope, 3 o'clock would then be inside.

''Post #21...''
''Your next ball is on the left side long rail/frozen two diamonds from the corner pocket.''
Your cue ball stops in the table middle, between the side pockets, and you want draw the back towards the head string, missing the side pocket.

I looked at my clock and its upside down.

 

[Tin Man]

My 3C mentor would make this shot without draw. He was a big man with a powerful stroke. When the shot came up I'd stand behind him to see what was going on. He hit it with 9 o'clock. He was a US Champion with better aim than me. I can get the angle sometimes but not the power.

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/11492.png

I tried Bill's setup a few times on my carom table. I paid more attention to the CB, therefore I don't know if any attempts would have pocketed the ball, so wasn't a good test. I did get past the side pocket on every attempt with just 3 o'clock, but again, what kind of hit did I get.

With max draw and max side in that area 7 o'clock I "believe" I got better results, but I'm not Bill. In the late 70's? & early 80's I watched Bill play nearly all comers (sometimes the negotiations went South) We both lived in the same college town in S. Illinois. Carbondale was on many Road Players Maps. Johnston City had ended one year before I got there, but Carbondale was a stop on their maps. Mostly cause of Bill and his good friend Dennis Geiske. Not sure of the spelling. And of course Fats was just up the road about 10 miles.

Yes. This is a stun shot with straight spinning left spin. With a firm stroke and very little distance between the cue ball and object ball the cue ball won't have time to develop significant forward roll, particularly with heated fine felt. So you can use equator line sidespin and with good snap get the cue ball to stun (the same way you can use center ball to shoot a stop shot from 2" away, the table doesn't allow time to develop forward roll).

But this wouldn't be called a draw shot. It would be called a stun with maximum outside.

The main point is that while sidespin has many uses, it doesn't change into draw.

 

[3kushn]

I think the confusion comes from what we mean by 'draw'.

Pool players define draw as a technique in which we hit below center on the cue ball causing it to spin backwards as it moves across the felt, and such that upon impact the cue ball comes backwards of the tangent line. If the shot is straight the cue ball will draw straight back (180 degrees), if it is a cut the cue ball will move away at an angle but one greater than 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

What I think Island Drive is saying is that when the cue ball is being played into a rail spin will influence the path of the cue ball, and in some cases extreme spin can duplicate the path of a back spinning cue ball. See diagram below. The green line is the tangent line reflected off the rail to indicate the cue ball path on a perfectly struck stun shot. The solid black line is the path of draw, in which the cue ball comes back of the tangent line en route to the rail and then bounces off the cushion at a natural angle. The second path represents a rolling cue ball with a healthy 9 o'clock left spin, in which the cue ball rolls forward of the tangent line and hits the cushion closer to straight on, but then the spin opens up the angle so it follows nearly the same path.

In this case you could say you can bring the cue ball far back of the tangent line using straight sidespin. This is true. And you could say you can obtain the same path on the cue ball by using check side spin as by using draw. In this case this is true as well. What you can't say is that sidespin becomes draw off of the rail, because cueing on the side of the ball doesn't cause the cue ball to spin backwards across the felt. Saying sidespin becomes draw is inaccurate and confusing. That said, learning the applications of maximum sidespin as an alternative to draw is well worth the effort and critical to top play.

View attachment 810405

Bill says the OB is frozen and 2 diamonds from the corner. CB is in the center of the table.
I'm very interested in this stuff. I'm old but have started training and discovering things I never paid attention to.

 

[Tin Man]

Bill says the OB is frozen and 2 diamonds from the corner. CB is in the center of the table.

I was just trying to find a situation that would explain his original post.

This post has confused quite a few readers now and created some frustration because we can't seem to understand what Island is saying and it conflicts with what we know to be true about pool. Sidespin doesn't turn into draw.

If Island wants to demonstrate a frequently overlooked application of sidespin that can eliminate the need to apply draw by duplicating its effects, I am all for that. I tried to provide one such demonstration. There are many others. What is missing is the clarity and accuracy of the explanation.

 

[mr3cushion]

I think the confusion comes from what we mean by 'draw'.

Pool players define draw as a technique in which we hit below center on the cue ball causing it to spin backwards as it moves across the felt, and such that upon impact the cue ball comes backwards of the tangent line. If the shot is straight the cue ball will draw straight back (180 degrees), if it is a cut the cue ball will move away at an angle but one greater than 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

What I think Island Drive is saying is that when the cue ball is being played into a rail spin will influence the path of the cue ball, and in some cases extreme spin can duplicate the path of a back spinning cue ball. See diagram below. The green line is the tangent line reflected off the rail to indicate the cue ball path on a perfectly struck stun shot. The solid black line is the path of draw, in which the cue ball comes back of the tangent line en route to the rail and then bounces off the cushion at a natural angle. The second path represents a rolling cue ball with a healthy 9 o'clock left spin, in which the cue ball rolls forward of the tangent line and hits the cushion closer to straight on, but then the spin opens up the angle so it follows nearly the same path.

In this case you could say you can bring the cue ball far back of the tangent line using straight sidespin. This is true. And you could say you can obtain the same path on the cue ball by using check side spin as by using draw. In this case this is true as well. What you can't say is that sidespin becomes draw off of the rail, because cueing on the side of the ball doesn't cause the cue ball to spin backwards across the felt. Saying sidespin becomes draw is inaccurate and confusing. That said, learning the applications of maximum sidespin as an alternative to draw is well worth the effort and critical to top play.

View attachment 810405

Getting the CB back for the 8 ball in the corner by pocketing the 5 ball where it sits require NO 'stroke' at all!

The 'Diagramed' shot can be played with 'Med-soft' speed/9 O'clock English to come across the table.

 

[garczar]

I'm not trying to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about

Glad i'm not the only one that often wonders just wtf he's talking about. Its almost like he out-AI's AI if that makes any fkn sense whatsoever.

 

[bbb]

I think the confusion comes from what we mean by 'draw'.

Pool players define draw as a technique in which we hit below center on the cue ball causing it to spin backwards as it moves across the felt, and such that upon impact the cue ball comes backwards of the tangent line. If the shot is straight the cue ball will draw straight back (180 degrees), if it is a cut the cue ball will move away at an angle but one greater than 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

What I think Island Drive is saying is that when the cue ball is being played into a rail spin will influence the path of the cue ball, and in some cases extreme spin can duplicate the path of a back spinning cue ball. See diagram below. The green line is the tangent line reflected off the rail to indicate the cue ball path on a perfectly struck stun shot. The solid black line is the path of draw, in which the cue ball comes back of the tangent line en route to the rail and then bounces off the cushion at a natural angle. The second path represents a rolling cue ball with a healthy 9 o'clock left spin, in which the cue ball rolls forward of the tangent line and hits the cushion closer to straight on, but then the spin opens up the angle so it follows nearly the same path.

In this case you could say you can bring the cue ball far back of the tangent line using straight sidespin. This is true. And you could say you can obtain the same path on the cue ball by using check side spin as by using draw. In this case this is true as well. What you can't say is that sidespin becomes draw off of the rail, because cueing on the side of the ball doesn't cause the cue ball to spin backwards across the felt. Saying sidespin becomes draw is inaccurate and confusing. That said, learning the applications of maximum sidespin as an alternative to draw is well worth the effort and critical to top play.

View attachment 810405

Getting the CB back for the 8 ball in the corner by pocketing the 5 ball where it sits require NO 'stroke' at all!

The 'Diagramed' shot can be played with 'Med-soft' speed/9 O'clock English to come across the table.

Nope, that's not the point I'm getting at.

I'm not talking about cue ball squirt....

i think @Tin Man you hit the nail on the head
the fact that the cue ball is coming back towards you @Island Drive is calling draw but you correctly stated that pool players think of draw as the cue ball having backspin
@mr3cushion tin man was just demonstrating or trying to differentiate the difference between sidespin causing the ball to come back towards you and draw coming back towards you
and i agree you dont need a stroke for the diagrammed shot.........even i could do it........
@Island Drive no one mentioned squirt anywhere

 

[Island Drive]

I think the confusion comes from what we mean by 'draw'.

Pool players define draw as a technique in which we hit below center on the cue ball causing it to spin backwards as it moves across the felt, and such that upon impact the cue ball comes backwards of the tangent line. If the shot is straight the cue ball will draw straight back (180 degrees), if it is a cut the cue ball will move away at an angle but one greater than 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

What I think Island Drive is saying is that when the cue ball is being played into a rail spin will influence the path of the cue ball, and in some cases extreme spin can duplicate the path of a back spinning cue ball. See diagram below. The green line is the tangent line reflected off the rail to indicate the cue ball path on a perfectly struck stun shot. The solid black line is the path of draw, in which the cue ball comes back of the tangent line en route to the rail and then bounces off the cushion at a natural angle. The second path represents a rolling cue ball with a healthy 9 o'clock left spin, in which the cue ball rolls forward of the tangent line and hits the cushion closer to straight on, but then the spin opens up the angle so it follows nearly the same path.

In this case you could say you can bring the cue ball far back of the tangent line using straight sidespin. This is true. And you could say you can obtain the same path on the cue ball by using check side spin as by using draw. In this case this is true as well. What you can't say is that sidespin becomes draw off of the rail, because cueing on the side of the ball doesn't cause the cue ball to spin backwards across the felt. Saying sidespin becomes draw is inaccurate and confusing. That said, learning the applications of maximum sidespin as an alternative to draw is well worth the effort and critical to top play.

View attachment 810405

Showing a ball off the rail allows you to draw and change the contact point on the rail.
Your showing a completely different shot than what I'm talking about.
This.... diagram has NOTHING to do with my original post.

bm

 

[Island Drive]

i think @Tin Man you hit the nail on the head
the fact that the cue ball is coming back towards you @Island Drive is calling draw but you correctly stated that pool players think of draw as the cue ball having backspin
@mr3cushion tin man was just demonstrating or trying to differentiate the difference between sidespin causing the ball to come back towards you and draw coming back towards you
and i agree you dont need a stroke for the diagrammed shot.........even i could do it........
@Island Drive no one mentioned squirt anywhere

''spin will influence the path of the cue ball''
PCGuy statement above....

bbb.... squirt is the exact same as what the pool boot camp guy said above he just used different wording.

PCG.... used a Completely different table set up with balls off the rail, why?
He's not at my level of understanding ball collisions is what I'm seeing, nothing wrong with that, I understand only too well what he's trying to say.