Thank you Stan, is the object ball aim point the actual contact point, or the edge of the object ball?
How aiming got its own zone?
- Thread starter Bambu
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Thank you Stan, is the object ball aim point the actual contact point, or the edge of the object ball?
Thanks Neil, 90/90 is the only pivot method I sort of know. Limited success on my end, but I've shown a few beginners that liked it.
You are welcome, Bambu.
no, the OB aim point is where your aiming energy is during your ball address.
no, the OB edge would not be a contact point either.
ctepro1 visuals are a way to objectively line up shots for the rest of your days.
ctepro1 visuals place the shooter just a slight rotation away from the center cb or the shot line. Pro1 left and right movements produce that slight rotation equal to a 1/2 tip manual pivot.
Stan Shuffett
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cb edges
A lot of the difficulty in properly understanding CTE/PRO 1 comes from the fact that aiming is done with either the left or right cue ball edge. Of course, this happens at ball address.
What most players are used to is looking over the meat of the cue ball at something on the object ball. I did that years.
Well, IMO, the way you REALLY aim is by using cb edges. The left cb edge is used for left cuts and the right cb edge is used for right cuts.
There are ob aimpoints to aim at. Then one is just slightly away from the shot line.....that where the pro1 pivot comes in. Actually, in pro1 there is no pivot.
Just a natural movement to center cb and that is at the heart of my pro1 system.
Stan Shuffett
A lot of the difficulty in properly understanding CTE/PRO 1 comes from the fact that aiming is done with either the left or right cue ball edge. Of course, this happens at ball address.
What most players are used to is looking over the meat of the cue ball at something on the object ball. I did that years.
Well, IMO, the way you REALLY aim is by using cb edges. The left cb edge is used for left cuts and the right cb edge is used for right cuts.
There are ob aimpoints to aim at. Then one is just slightly away from the shot line.....that where the pro1 pivot comes in. Actually, in pro1 there is no pivot.
Just a natural movement to center cb and that is at the heart of my pro1 system.
Stan Shuffett
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Banks
Banned
So, you flip out at any mention of 'feel', but you'll post this?? Maybe Barton can get on you about having to 'guess' at your shots with Pro1.
Folks, this is why the argument will never end.. because it has no ending. Stan even said it himself, that you make minor adjustments.
Yep, Banks, there are minor adjustments. The eyes lead and the body follows. The adjustments are body oriented.
Even though the eyes have located a shot line, even if it's just a zero angle shot, the shooter must perfectly place the cue on the line that the eyes have lead him to and that's not always easy. CTE/PRO1 is a visual system......Adjustments are almost always from the body.
CTEPRO1 is all about eye information....the body must learn to follow.
Stan Shuffett
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how the pros aim
Can someone locate the aiming question posed to the pros a few years ago?
I'd like to specifically see Leslie O'Hare's answer again.
I am not for sure what publication that was in...
Thanks in advance,
Stan
Can someone locate the aiming question posed to the pros a few years ago?
I'd like to specifically see Leslie O'Hare's answer again.
I am not for sure what publication that was in...
Thanks in advance,
Stan
Here you are, Stan, from the July, 1995 issue of Pool & Billiards Magazine, compliments of Bob Jewett: http://www.sfbilliards.com/PnB_aiming.pdf
I think that's a great summary PJ. The only thing I would disagree with is the "additional system steps/estimations" part.
The "visuals" part is one and the same with observing the edges/centers and aim points, and as you said for me and others this seems to be easier to visualize than the ghost ball concept. It's no different really in terms of estimating the correct aim line, you either have to "see" the ghost ball/contact point or "see" the correct visuals.
Once locked in, you still have to move into the shot since you are aiming while standing. There's no more "estimating" going on with CTE/Pro1 than there is with ghost ball, just a different movement. You still have to let your eyes lead your body into the shot, the only difference is with ghost ball you are trying to go straight down a visual line and with CTE you are going straight down your visual line offset to center, then once down on the shot performing a pivot. Or with Pro1, simply rotating or leaning into the shot as opposed to getting straight down on it.
I do not try and vary my approach in order to accomplish shots within certain ranges, if anything making a poor body movement into the shot is a recipe for missing. If there is some sort of trick going on that allows this to all work, or I'm estimating without knowing it, then our eye/brain connection is truly a wonderful and complex thing. I know for me once I pick up the visual all of my focus is on getting to center cue ball, I look there the entire time and only after arriving down on the shot and taking a few warmup strokes do I look up at the OB. Then I see that I ended up on the correct line and I'm ready to shoot.
You and I have not found a reason to "go at one another", and I appreciate your interest and questions/conversations. I do understand your viewpoint because I'm normally the same way. Had I not taken this to the table and really tried it I certainly wouldn't have gotten it. I still wonder sometimes what's going on and try hard not to overthink it. I'm willing to remain agnostic with regards to exactly how it works or if there might be some hidden estimation going on that I'm unaware of, but I can certainly attest that it does work and has improved my shot making over my old ghost ball type method. And it's not from just a more standardized PSR-type approach - frankly, my old method was more comfortable for me and I can't use that with CTE/Pro1. There's just something that has me feeling locked in on the shot line with this approach, and I'm able to approach tough shots, banks, etc. with the same confidence and expectation that I do typical shots, which is something I could not do with my old method.
Scott
#12 ranked Nesli O'Hare explains what she was taught. "The technique I use was taught to me by Efren Reyes.According to Efren, there are three kinds of hits on any object ball. First, there's looking at the center of cue ball to the point of aim if the shot is a full ball hit. If not, you can divide the object ball into four quarters, sighting your cue ball edge to the point of aim"
This is where we continue to disagree.
And this is how we disagree. There is no additional step to get from seeing the ghost ball to finding the shot line - they're one and the same. But there is a necessary additional step to finding the shot line with CTE - it isn't the CTE line or the aimpoint line, but some mashup of the two that the movement completes.
As I said, this isn't an indication that one is better than the other - it's a tradeoff.
pj
chgo
If I disregard my dominant eye and develop a vision center where the cue is between both eyes, I can see the right edge of the CB with my right eye and the left edge with my left eye.
I can then look at the shot at hand and starting with a CTE line (CTEL), (with the cue between my eyes), I will notice that for a cut shot to the left, with the CTEL on the right edge of the OB, my left eye is looking at the center of the OB (B), and for a cut shot to the right, with the CTEL on the left edge of the OB my right eye is looking at the center of the OB (B).
If the cut angle is 30 degrees, I don’t need to shift or pivot, but can just shoot the shot from that aim and stance (Hal said this).
If I want to reduce the cut angle (thick) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the right and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
If I want to increase the cut angle (thin) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the left and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
Starting at the CTEL and cutting the OB to the left, I can move my head/eye and stance slightly to the right (off of the CTEL) until my left eye in looking at the left ¼ (A) on the OB, get down and shoot a cut angle less than 30 degrees.
Again,
If I want to reduce the cut angle (thick) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the right and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
If I want to increase the cut angle (thin) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the left and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
Starting at the CTEL and cutting the OB to the left, I can move my head/eye and stance slightly to the left (off of the CTEL) until my left eye in looking at the right ¼ (C [3/4]) on the OB, get down and shoot a cut angle greater than 30 degrees.
I can do the same for 7/8 (1/8 inside of the OB edge) for thinner cuts.
I can take this to the table and memorize the resulting angles so that whenever I see those angles I will recall what the secondary aim fraction is - 1/8, ¼, ½, ¾ or 7/8, and add the ½ tip shift and pivot to get a bit thinner or thicker from there.
When Neslie O'Hare was shooting back in the day, she would take her stick and aim the tip almost touching the OB on the shot line. She would then pull the stick back 1 & 1/8" (1/2 OB diameter) and pivot from the tip until the shaft/butt was over the CB, get down and shoot at the spot where her tip was resting under the GB. She did this on almost every shot. I thought that was a cleaver method.
:thumbup:
I can then look at the shot at hand and starting with a CTE line (CTEL), (with the cue between my eyes), I will notice that for a cut shot to the left, with the CTEL on the right edge of the OB, my left eye is looking at the center of the OB (B), and for a cut shot to the right, with the CTEL on the left edge of the OB my right eye is looking at the center of the OB (B).
If the cut angle is 30 degrees, I don’t need to shift or pivot, but can just shoot the shot from that aim and stance (Hal said this).
If I want to reduce the cut angle (thick) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the right and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
If I want to increase the cut angle (thin) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the left and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
Starting at the CTEL and cutting the OB to the left, I can move my head/eye and stance slightly to the right (off of the CTEL) until my left eye in looking at the left ¼ (A) on the OB, get down and shoot a cut angle less than 30 degrees.
Again,
If I want to reduce the cut angle (thick) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the right and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
If I want to increase the cut angle (thin) to the left a bit, I would move the tip of my cue and my bridge ½ tip to the left and then move my stance and pivot back to the center of the CB and shoot.
Starting at the CTEL and cutting the OB to the left, I can move my head/eye and stance slightly to the left (off of the CTEL) until my left eye in looking at the right ¼ (C [3/4]) on the OB, get down and shoot a cut angle greater than 30 degrees.
I can do the same for 7/8 (1/8 inside of the OB edge) for thinner cuts.
I can take this to the table and memorize the resulting angles so that whenever I see those angles I will recall what the secondary aim fraction is - 1/8, ¼, ½, ¾ or 7/8, and add the ½ tip shift and pivot to get a bit thinner or thicker from there.
When Neslie O'Hare was shooting back in the day, she would take her stick and aim the tip almost touching the OB on the shot line. She would then pull the stick back 1 & 1/8" (1/2 OB diameter) and pivot from the tip until the shaft/butt was over the CB, get down and shoot at the spot where her tip was resting under the GB. She did this on almost every shot. I thought that was a cleaver method.
:thumbup:
But that's just a ghost-ball technique, not what Nesli was talking about in the 1995 article.
Bambu, it certainly sounds like you have not viewed Stan's DVD. If you have a sincere interest in learning CTE/Pro1, I urge you to spend the $45 and buy the DVD, then give it a thorough study. Here's where to order it: http://www.justcueit.com/.
If you do that and then decide the method is not for you, you can recoup most of your purchase price by re-selling the DVD on AzB.
Im interested Large, thanks but I guess I'm cheap. Then again, I broke down and paid 30 bucks for a piece of chalk. I might just buy it out of curiosity. I can see others benefitting, and understanding how others see different lines and relationships can never hurt.
More about the necessity of 2 visuals in ctepro1:
At first care must be taken to have a proper cte offset. Well, how much should the offset be if one is not sighting directly down the half ball line.
Accuracy in aiming a cb edge to ob aim is a must as that is what determines the visual offset to the actual cte line.
At first, aiming at ob aimpoints is not as simple as it may seem. Keep in mind that for all cte shots an aimpoint line is coupled with a cte line perception.
As one progresses in visual skills used in ctepro1, a single wide line is often seen in the form of an overlap or a tube.
So, learning to accurately see the 2 lines initially is a very deliberate process that in time allows the shooter at ball address to see just an aimline or a cte line offset, or an overlap for many others.
It's all about developing visual skills or what I sometimes refer to as visual intelligence.
Stan Shuffett
At first care must be taken to have a proper cte offset. Well, how much should the offset be if one is not sighting directly down the half ball line.
Accuracy in aiming a cb edge to ob aim is a must as that is what determines the visual offset to the actual cte line.
At first, aiming at ob aimpoints is not as simple as it may seem. Keep in mind that for all cte shots an aimpoint line is coupled with a cte line perception.
As one progresses in visual skills used in ctepro1, a single wide line is often seen in the form of an overlap or a tube.
So, learning to accurately see the 2 lines initially is a very deliberate process that in time allows the shooter at ball address to see just an aimline or a cte line offset, or an overlap for many others.
It's all about developing visual skills or what I sometimes refer to as visual intelligence.
Stan Shuffett
Are you not human, because many humans understand.
That's fine. I'm sure if we were together at a table we would have a great discussion of this and I could demonstrate some things. As I said, I'm open to the idea that I'm somehow doing something that I'm not consciously aware of. Don't think so, but possible.
The movement is not a straight movement toward an already determined aim line but rather a pivot away from a determined visual. There is some potential for ambiguity in the movement, but I don't think anymore so than moving down into a normally determined shot, you can still end up offline etc.
The main difference is you are moving toward a predefined line with ghost ball type methods and might notice that you veered off somehow, where with the pivot-type movement you really have to trust everything more. But again, with experience, you will still see that you are off line (if you are) and can adjust if needed, that rarely happens. I stay very focused on the cue ball during the whole process (after picking up the visuals) and just end up on the right line.
Scott