how are ya'll doing in league ?

8cree

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well we won the Big dawg title for the summer session. We have won the title 3 out of the last 4 sessions, so I am really proud of my team. Unfortunately, it is getting to the point where we are "improving" too much.

I started the team 4 years ago as a way for me and 4 of my buddies to get out of the house and play someone other than ourselves. Today, 3 of the 4 original members are still with me. My philosophy from day 1 has always been to play your best and try to win each match, and not worry about skill level or handicaps.

Well now my 3's have all moved up, along with everyone else. My team now consists of SL 7, a 6, (2) 5's, and (4) Sl 4's. It is getting harder and harder to get everyone matches. For example, the only way my SL 7 can play is if all of my SL 4's play the other matches. Not only does that cause problems with bad matchups, but all four are rarely all there on the same night, so my 7, who has been with me from the beginning, rarely gets to play.

I know that the APA model forces teams to splinter off from each other and form new teams, but this sucks. I am going to have to tell 2 of our newer players, who have practiced, worked hard, and improved greatly to get to SL 4, that they need to start looking for a new team. Either that, or tell one of my oldest friends that handicap rules dictate that he find a new team with some SL 2's and 3's.

Anybody ever had to deal with this? Hell of a dilemma.
Pretty sure everyone who has played in the APA has been down this road which results in the bad taste in their mouths about the APA.

It's a fine racket I tell ya...

Hate to hear it for you. Hopefully everyone understands.
 

Texas Carom Club

play 1cushion & balkline
Silver Member
man im dyin to get back at it


im gonna give up my apa 8ball monday for the only 14.1 league in town which is monday
and if a decent team forms up with my buds ill leave vnea for bca if not i enjoy vnea greatly just wish i could have a better team of guys like minded and goal oriented

undecided about 9 ball but i definitely need the most work in that area
 

Scrunge19

Registered
Are there any other leagues operating in your area? I left the APA for the BCA/USAPL and I wish I would have left sooner. You're absolutely correct about the APA using the handicap system as a way to fracture teams in order to grow their revenue base. That was definitely one of the main reasons why I soured on the APA. The BCA and USAPL use the fargorate handicap system and even if your team exceeds the 2375 fargorate cap, you can still have everyone play. You just spot the other team 1 point for every point your team is over that cap.
 

Chili Palmer

20.769%
Silver Member
Well we won the Big dawg title for the summer session. We have won the title 3 out of the last 4 sessions, so I am really proud of my team. Unfortunately, it is getting to the point where we are "improving" too much.

I started the team 4 years ago as a way for me and 4 of my buddies to get out of the house and play someone other than ourselves. Today, 3 of the 4 original members are still with me. My philosophy from day 1 has always been to play your best and try to win each match, and not worry about skill level or handicaps.

Well now my 3's have all moved up, along with everyone else. My team now consists of SL 7, a 6, (2) 5's, and (4) Sl 4's. It is getting harder and harder to get everyone matches. For example, the only way my SL 7 can play is if all of my SL 4's play the other matches. Not only does that cause problems with bad matchups, but all four are rarely all there on the same night, so my 7, who has been with me from the beginning, rarely gets to play.

I know that the APA model forces teams to splinter off from each other and form new teams, but this sucks. I am going to have to tell 2 of our newer players, who have practiced, worked hard, and improved greatly to get to SL 4, that they need to start looking for a new team. Either that, or tell one of my oldest friends that handicap rules dictate that he find a new team with some SL 2's and 3's.

Anybody ever had to deal with this? Hell of a dilemma.

As an SL9 I deal with it all the time. I've got a good buddy on my team that's an SL6 and the way he has been shooting he might move up to a 7 soon. Plus, my new 3 is probably going to move to a 4 and at that point I'm screwed. I have already had to double play someone the last two weeks because I'm short. Either I tell my buddy he has to find another team or I stop playing :frown:
 

cjl0s

Registered
As has been stated in the past ad nauseum. This is a MLM style feature not a flaw to expand the league. A lot of people play league to play with their friends and once this is not longer possible they lose interest. With covid the rosters are thin and many better players have left for BCA. Why don't the leagues roll back everybody above a 5 back to a 5? When the players go back up once the team is past the 23 limit, give the compliant team the ability to lower one or more SLs but the amount the offending team exceeds 23. So if your team is a 25 let the compliant team roll back 2 SLs as they see fit? Lower a 5 to a 3 for example. This would get better players back in again and rejuvinate the league.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are there any other leagues operating in your area? I left the APA for the BCA/USAPL and I wish I would have left sooner. You're absolutely correct about the APA using the handicap system as a way to fracture teams in order to grow their revenue base. That was definitely one of the main reasons why I soured on the APA. The BCA and USAPL use the fargorate handicap system and even if your team exceeds the 2375 fargorate cap, you can still have everyone play. You just spot the other team 1 point for every point your team is over that cap.

I would have to drive about an hour to find a BCA league. That is an awesome idea about penalizing 1 point for every point over the cap. would solve a lot of problems.

As an SL9 I deal with it all the time. I've got a good buddy on my team that's an SL6 and the way he has been shooting he might move up to a 7 soon. Plus, my new 3 is probably going to move to a 4 and at that point I'm screwed. I have already had to double play someone the last two weeks because I'm short. Either I tell my buddy he has to find another team or I stop playing :frown:

Yep. Almost the same situation I'm in. Look, I ain't ever going to be a world beater or make a living playing pool, but I want to be the absolute best I can be, whether that means staying at a 6 in 8ball or moving up to a 7. It shoudn't come at the expense of having to disband the team...

As has been stated in the past ad nauseum. This is a MLM style feature not a flaw to expand the league. A lot of people play league to play with their friends and once this is not longer possible they lose interest. With covid the rosters are thin and many better players have left for BCA. Why don't the leagues roll back everybody above a 5 back to a 5? When the players go back up once the team is past the 23 limit, give the compliant team the ability to lower one or more SLs but the amount the offending team exceeds 23. So if your team is a 25 let the compliant team roll back 2 SLs as they see fit? Lower a 5 to a 3 for example. This would get better players back in again and rejuvinate the league.

This is a good idea as well. I'm definitely not bashing the APA, as I have thoroughly enjoyed being a captain and playing with the guys each week, just not crazy about this part of it. Unfortunately, i don't see the APA changing anything because it is evidently working for them. We currently play at 2 bars, and one of the bar owners is on my team. I wonder if he would be interested in trying to form a "house league" with cash payouts vs. the Vegas dangling carrot. Hmmm...
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have faced the same problem with my teams as far as trying to meet handicap. I have also had to replay low levels in order not to go over. Yea its frustrating alright. Don't know what the answer is.

I also dont know why the majority of players in my area prefer apa either.. The first league i joined was bcapl but its not available in my area any more.

I have also played napa...tap and usapl. None of those are available here anymore. I played apa and napa the same week when both were available and also played apa...tap and usapl all in the same week when they were all available.. For some reason napa...tap and usapl never caught on with most apa players.

I do enjoy apa or otherwise i would not have been playing it for the last 10 years. I never joined apa for the pie in the sky trip to vegas and actually did not know they offered such a trip until about 3 weeks later.

Something that puzzles me about vegas is we seem to have a lot of the same players go almost every year but seldom do they finish high..makes me wonder just how good these other areas are compared to mine.

I have been one time and we finshed 2-2 and didn't even take our 2 best players. Then again i guess we didnt face any teams that possibly finished high because i didnt really see any evidence of sandbagging with the exception of one young lady who was rated a 2..

Well as i say i feel yall guys frustration because i face it every session myself. I dont want to turn this thread into an apa bashing thread and am quite honestly surprised its went this long without turnng into one. I have found fault with every league i have played so far and really dont expect apa to be perfect but yea there are things i would like to see different. While i am at it i want to mention the apa league owners we have do an oustanding job in my opinion.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I have faced the same problem with my teams as far as trying to meet handicap. I have also had to replay low levels in order not to go over. Yea its frustrating alright. Don't know what the answer is.


Well as i say i feel yall guys frustration because i face it every session myself.

It is my opinion that the 23-rule should, at the very least, be raised to 25 in 9-ball. I like the sound of 24 in 8-ball and 26 in 9-ball even better.

What is your opinion about this?

Maniac
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is my opinion that the 23-rule should, at the very least, be raised to 25 in 9-ball. I like the sound of 24 in 8-ball and 26 in 9-ball even better.

What is your opinion about this?

Maniac

Completely agree with you maniac. As usual .:grin-square:
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Last night was the first time in a long time that I played close to the way I used to...pretty good night, beat a strong SL6, 4-1. Wasn't perfect by any means, but a decent night.

Felt good.
 

Chili Palmer

20.769%
Silver Member
It is my opinion that the 23-rule should, at the very least, be raised to 25 in 9-ball. I like the sound of 24 in 8-ball and 26 in 9-ball even better.

What is your opinion about this?

Maniac

I agree. 25 or 26 points would be about perfect in our area.
 

Chili Palmer

20.769%
Silver Member
Why not keep the same team and play another league?

There is a BCA league here but I refuse to give the owner any money out of my pocket so that option is out. They apparently have a VNEA league but I'm not interested in it. There is also a city league in the next town over, but again, not interested in city league. Played that in Omaha for 10 years and I'm good. If I didn't live in the Boise area I would play BCA without question. I would probably play 1 night of BCA and 1 night of APA. I know people bash on APA but there's no better handicapping system that I know of for 9B. I can go play in BCA and confidently beat 90% of the people, with the APA handicap that's simply not the case. If I'm put up against a 1, 2, or 3 that's having a good night then I have to fight like hell, in BCA it would be a joke.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So now bca is a joke
Ok I didn't know you were that badass a player

Not trying to bash bcapl at all aa it was the first league i joined and i enjoyed it and definintily dont want a thread i started a few years ago to be about bashing any league. As i stated when i started this thread...all players in all leagues are welcome yo share their expeeiences.

Just going to point out some rules to kinda back chillis view.

Bcapl is open after the break..if you make a ball on the break you can pocket whatever ball on the table you prefer. In apa its closed break and you have to choose the suit of the object ball that fell. I am sure you will agree thaf open break is more conducive to break and runs.

Bih after a scratch on the break .
Bcapl is bih anywhere on the table. Apa is bih behind the line. Again...bcapl rule is more conducive to a run out than apa.

So you see bcapl rules make it easier for higher level players to win.

Now this view may stir up some controversy but its just my opinion based on my experience in playing both. I had way more 8 ball break amd runs in bcapl than i have achieved in apa which at the time when i played bcapl i thought i was a better player than i really was. 14 years ago i was rated a 7 in bcapl and today i am only a 5 in apa and no i aint a sandbagger lol..also played usapl at one time and acheived a 505 fargo rating with around 230 matches iirc.. So its somewhat true that apa rules are geared to make lower level players somewhat competitive with higher levels as chilli alluded to..
 

Texas Carom Club

play 1cushion & balkline
Silver Member
There's all kinds of silver linings
It's mostly apa bashing I've ever seen
Because of the slop thing
Eh you ain't gonna slop your way to winning a match I'll say that

Bnr's are a part of pool
Can't complain about being on the other end of it imo
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There's all kinds of silver linings
It's mostly apa bashing I've ever seen
Because of the slop thing
Eh you ain't gonna slop your way to winning a match I'll say that

Bnr's are a part of pool
Can't complain about being on the other end of it imo

I have voiced displeasure over things i have seen in apa but have never bashed it per se. The same with my experience in other leagues. You mention slop in apa. Dont know if you can grasp the idea of some one who likes apa but hates slop tremendously but i am one of those guys. I grew up playing in bars and no one hates slop more than a bar player.

My hatred of slop is the major reason i cant really get into 9 ball . even lower players use a lil more caution in 8 ball due to the possibility of an early 8 falling but in 9 ball its hit everything at warp speed and hope something falls some where. Kinda expect it from 4's and below but it really irks my azz to see a 5 or above resort to slam and hope when they get in a tight spot.
 

Chili Palmer

20.769%
Silver Member
So now bca is a joke
Ok I didn't know you were that badass a player

LOL, I wish. In reality let's say you have 5 players in APA SL's 4 through 9. In APA the 9 is the only heads up match for me. The 4 only has to make 31 points while I need 75, for every two I need to make he needs to make less than 1. Most importantly - ANY ball he makes goes towards his score but in BCA he has to make the 9B to win the game. In APA he runs 4 balls and misses and I run out - the score is 6-4 me. Given the handicap I am already behind. In BCA I would be ahead.

So, as much as I would like to sit here and say I'm god on a table I'm not, I'm just another guy trying to have fun and challenge myself and APA is the best place for that challenge.

Not trying to bash bcapl at all aa it was the first league i joined and i enjoyed it and definintily dont want a thread i started a few years ago to be about bashing any league. As i stated when i started this thread...all players in all leagues are welcome yo share their expeeiences.

Just going to point out some rules to kinda back chillis view.

Bcapl is open after the break..if you make a ball on the break you can pocket whatever ball on the table you prefer. In apa its closed break and you have to choose the suit of the object ball that fell. I am sure you will agree thaf open break is more conducive to break and runs.

Agreed, I played one session of BCA and I believe I had more 8B bnr's in that one session then I have had in 2 years of APA.

Bih after a scratch on the break .
Bcapl is bih anywhere on the table. Apa is bih behind the line. Again...bcapl rule is more conducive to a run out than apa.

So you see bcapl rules make it easier for higher level players to win.

Now this view may stir up some controversy but its just my opinion based on my experience in playing both. I had way more 8 ball break amd runs in bcapl than i have achieved in apa which at the time when i played bcapl i thought i was a better player than i really was. 14 years ago i was rated a 7 in bcapl and today i am only a 5 in apa and no i aint a sandbagger lol..also played usapl at one time and acheived a 505 fargo rating with around 230 matches iirc.. So its somewhat true that apa rules are geared to make lower level players somewhat competitive with higher levels as chilli alluded to..

There's all kinds of silver linings
It's mostly apa bashing I've ever seen
Because of the slop thing
Eh you ain't gonna slop your way to winning a match I'll say that

Bnr's are a part of pool
Can't complain about being on the other end of it imo

I prefer 9B so slop is always part of the game. And as far as slopping your way to a win, wanna bet. I have played one person 4 times and he's got me 3-1. 1 of his wins was earned the other two were crazy slop in his side. Look through this thread and you'll see me mention it before. He is a decent shot but if he misses he either slops something in and gets perfect shape or he hooks me. My son didn't believe me until last Monday when I played him again. His first shot missed and he slopped something in and was perfect on the next ball, I just looked at my son and said "I told you", then my opponenet proceeded to gain approximately 30 points due to slop. Whether it was slop a ball in and then make 4 or 5 more balls or he slop hooked me and got some points after that. Either way - if slop didn't count he wouldn't have a chance.

I have voiced displeasure over things i have seen in apa but have never bashed it per se. The same with my experience in other leagues. You mention slop in apa. Dont know if you can grasp the idea of some one who likes apa but hates slop tremendously but i am one of those guys. I grew up playing in bars and no one hates slop more than a bar player.

My hatred of slop is the major reason i cant really get into 9 ball . even lower players use a lil more caution in 8 ball due to the possibility of an early 8 falling but in 9 ball its hit everything at warp speed and hope something falls some where. Kinda expect it from 4's and below but it really irks my azz to see a 5 or above resort to slam and hope when they get in a tight spot.

I don't mind slop, it happens. The one's that get me are the good shooters (like the person I mention above) who can make shots but have no ball control and get sloppy and luck ALL THE TIME!!! It's the most annoying thing in the world to me. EDIT: It pisses me off so bad I have decided not to play this person anymore unless there is no other option.
 
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justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I have voiced displeasure over things i have seen in apa but have never bashed it per se. The same with my experience in other leagues. You mention slop in apa. Dont know if you can grasp the idea of some one who likes apa but hates slop tremendously but i am one of those guys. I grew up playing in bars and no one hates slop more than a bar player.

My hatred of slop is the major reason i cant really get into 9 ball . even lower players use a lil more caution in 8 ball due to the possibility of an early 8 falling but in 9 ball its hit everything at warp speed and hope something falls some where. Kinda expect it from 4's and below but it really irks my azz to see a 5 or above resort to slam and hope when they get in a tight spot.

I agree with you on the crash and bash...but save for a few examples, i rarely see it work out. We do have one or two guys that are maddening with their ability to just drill one and have something fall, and somehow manage enough shape to see the next ball. One of those guys even does it in 8-ball and rarely steps in it...its actually comical how well it works for him, much of the time. "Hit'em Hard Lester", we call him.

I know the few times I've been desperate enough to try it, it never works out for me. :p

Fortunately we don't see many who do that around here. Especially on 9-footers, it doesn't seem to work for many.
 
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