How bad are the charges going to affect Barringers reputation?

jrackman said:
It been going on for 3 yrs. He may have plead guilty because the legal fees are mounting up to more then the fine proably and just to get it over with as he can't win the case because he's the example!...jmo
Click to expand...

I was replying to Bill's quote of innocent until proven guilty. Doesn't matter if he was innocent...he put in a plea. You are correct...he may have plead guilty just to get it over with and lessen the prolonged fight. I didn't ask him. I don't believe he would have just given in though if he felt he hadn't done a no-no. No one is exempt. We've all done something we probably wish we could back and change. I know I have. I'm only guessing but a misdemeanor first offense probably just a slap with probation. They got a couple hundred #'s of tusk and enough cubans to keep all the puffers at the feds doing scrimshaw and smiling for awhile.
 
Moving in and out of the country with an Ivory-containing cue

I read a post earlier on regarding the fact that a (ivory containing) cue owner would possibly be busted for illegal export (or later import) of Elephant Ivory as passing through customs out and back into the US.

As it sits, this is absolutely correct. If you have a cue containing Ivory (in the USA) and want to play in a tournament in Germany (I think that was the example) you could have the cue confiscated at the US (or German) border, be fined and/or imprisoned. Same thing on the way back.

Now, this is also true for automobiles. If you take your personal car to Europe for a 'tour' you might be inclined to sell it there and fly back without it. (the Europeans LOVE big old American cars)

However, there IS a way to export and re-import your vehicles which I am familiar with. A 'Carnet' is applied to the vehicle. This document is proof of several times the agreed upon value of the vehicle sitting in a bank account as insurance you will not dispose of the vehicle in-country. (if you do, the government of the country of disposal gets the bank account contents).

I suspect a similar method could (and should) be used if you have one or more cues you wish to export and then import from a foreign country (which is essentially what you would be doing). An appraisal by someone qulaified (an established dealer or two for example) might set a fair market value for the cue in question. You, the owner, would obtain the Carnetqualified, and deposit three to five times that cue's value in a bank account controlled by the issuer of the Carnet (you don't get the carnet until they get their money). You then present this document at customs when you enter their country, and get a stamp at the same time your passport is stamped (and there may be other paperwork required by customs at time of entry as well). When you leave the country, you get a similar stamp on the Carnet and your passport.

When you get back home, you present the carnet (stamped) and you get most of your money back.

Now, if you are a cue dealer, this is going to be difficult to get. If you own one cue with ivory that you wish to use for competition by yourself, it should be easier.

Bottom line is it is not easy to do; however without going through this pain, you could face a lot more if caught later.

Basically, they (customs) don't know that the ivory in a cue has to be at least 20 years old (and dry) to be used at all in a cue; nor do they care. Also they don't know if you bought this cue you have in the foreign country and are importing it for the first time (that would be even worse than being caught taking it out I think), which equates to illegal importation of elephant Ivory.

I have also heard that if you are moving to another country with your personal property for your personal use (antique pool table with ivory sights perhaps?) this is allowed (and the example is bad- an "antique" with Ivory inlay is easier to move around because it is easier to 'prove' it is an antique... usually...). Technically, if you then sold this item once in-country, you would be violating the export laws.

Most of you are :boring2::boring2: but the point is there IS a way to move your cue in and out of the country legally, but it is not a matter of grabbing your cue and going- it has to be planned FAR in advance to get everything in place; however it is possible it seems.
 
My first post and about 29 cents worth ...

Hi all,

I'm a first time poster, and I hope you don't think this post is too long winded.

Joe Barringer is not doing anything much more than a lot of try to do in life such as trying to make a living for himself and is family, working in something that he knows and loves, and trying to treat people somewhat fairly while running his business. He just likes to do it in a flamboyant and sort of swashbuckling way.

Overall, I feel that if you keep your eyes open and pay attention he is a good person to deal with.

Now on to my real reason for this post:

Joe Barringer was charged with exporting ivory to an undercover officer in London, England. Why the Feds came after him in the first place was that it seems that Joe was "worked" by an overzealous Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) (Scotland Yard) officer who probably thought he had caught on to an international smuggler of elephant ivory. The officer was just doing his job, though I feel that he entrapped unsuspecting Joe who was just trying to fulfill the wishes of a cue connoisseur. The officer/eBayer bought three cues with ivory in them at several different times before turning the case over to the US Fish&Wildlife Service. (http://www.fws.gov/)

Should Joe have awakened from his dream state and realized what was up? You betcha!

According to Joe, the nearly two hundred pounds (197 by all reports) of ivory he gave up to the feds were cut pieces, tusk tips and junk ivory. Joe himself describes the ivory as "scrap ivory". The real loss for Joe, I think, was the loss of 1,840 Cuban cigars "98 boxes"; "well aged". It seems that these cigars can only imported through clandestine means( ie.. smuggled).

Oh! By the way Joe is still selling cues with ivory in them and also ivory products. That is because his ivory is legal. He insists on getting a statement of legality from sellers of the ivory he buys.

Also in his latest email, he stated that it was "Time for coffee and a VSG Sorceror (that's a cigar for you non aficionados). Non-Cuban of course." (LOL)

___________________________________________________
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Listed below are the regulations on many things including the import and export of ivory. I tended towards the export from the United States.

http://www.cites.org/
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http://www.fws.gov/endangered/laws-policies/section-9.html

Endangered Species Act | Section 9

(d) IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.—(1) IN GENERAL.—It is unlawful for any person, without first having obtained permission from the Secretary, to engage in business— (A) as an importer or exporter of fish or wildlife (other than shellfish and fishery products which (i) are not listed pursuant to section 4 of this Act as endangered species or threatened species, and (ii) are imported for purposes of human or animal consumption or taken in waters under the jurisdiction of the United States or on the high seas for recreational purposes) or plants; or (B) as an importer or exporter of any amount of raw or worked African elephant ivory. (2) REQUIREMENTS.—Any person required to obtain permission under paragraph (1) of this subsection shall— (A) keep such records as will fully and correctly disclose each importation or exportation of fish, wildlife, plants, or African elephant ivory made by him and the subsequent disposition made by him with respect to such fish, wildlife, plants, or ivory; (B) at all reasonable times upon notice by a duly authorized representative of the Secretary, afford such representative access to his place of business, an opportunity to examine his inventory of imported fish, wildlife, plants, or African elephant ivory and the records required to be kept under subparagraph (A) of this paragraph, and to copy such records; and (C) file such reports as the Secretary may require. (3) REGULATIONS.—The Secretary shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary and appropriate to carry out the purposes of this subsection.(4) RESTRICTION ON CONSIDERATION OF VALUE OR AMOUNT OF AFRICAN ELEPHANT IVORY IMPORTED OR EXPORTED.—In granting permission under this subsection for importation or exportation of African elephant ivory, the Secretary shall not vary the requirements for obtaining such permission on the basis of the value or amount of ivory imported or exported under such permission.

Bottom line: We may of may not think that ivory should be used in pool cues, but one thing is abundantly clear. The African elephant is a beautiful animal, very smart, and under great stress from poachers (illegal ivory trade), diminishing habitat resulting in human-elephant conflict. We need to support efforts to sustain this magnificent mammal.

Enough said,

rogedjohn
 
how would they know it's ivory

when it comes to travelling or shipping cues w/ ivory, how would the authorities confirm that it was ivory?

would they scrape off the finish and test it in some ways?

if you were at the airport, what would they say if you said it was elforyn or some other synthetic substitute?

not sure if this was asked before, but for tiny inlays, it seems as if it would be pretty hard to confirm that it was in fact ivory.
 
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