How can the cue market be down when....

classiccues

classiccues

Morgan set complete...
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..every time I log in, there is a NEW cuemaker posting? Yet I learn of nobody closing shop?!?!?!?! Is there a secret pool league that we are not aware of? Is there a place where pool is being played?

The guy inlaying custom card markers, now there is the smart mo'fo'in cuemaker :) Hey Dennis S., you want to make me an ebony cardmarker with and ivory inset and some scrimshaw? Let's work something up... :grin:

JV (---just a question
 
I don't think it's down. The Buyers like to say it's down so they can talk you into a deal. I've been 2-3 orders a week pretty consistently. Yesterday, I had a guy drive nearly two hours to order a cue. Me, I'm so lazy, I can't drive 5 minutes to order food, I'd just have it delivered.
 
There are SO many people that used to have a job! Now they are hoping to make money building cues. Good Luck to them IMO there are very few cuemakers really earning a good living. Several cuemakers sell almost all their cues overseas in order to earn their livings. I cannot and do not blame them after all that is where so much of America's money ends up anyhow!
Dan
 
classiccues said:
..every time I log in, there is a NEW cuemaker posting? Yet I learn of nobody closing shop?!?!?!?! Is there a secret pool league that we are not aware of? Is there a place where pool is being played?

The guy inlaying custom card markers, now there is the smart mo'fo'in cuemaker :) Hey Dennis S., you want to make me an ebony cardmarker with and ivory inset and some scrimshaw? Let's work something up... :grin:

JV (---just a question
Click to expand...

A lot of people are out of work and a lot more are to follow. They see business being done here, some cues being sold and maybe see a shot at a nice side income with a little occupational independence for themselves. What they don't see is that this business is subject to the same dismal economy as they are, actually more so.
Pool is a game; a luxury not an essential. In hard times, luxuries get set aside until you know that you can eat and have a roof over your head.
This business and this sport are heading for deep hardship.
I'm not going to encourage anyone to follow this path, even if it's just as a 'hobby'. If they have the money to buy machinery/equipment, wood, tooling, supplies & etc. they better be hanging on to it because they're going to need it in 'essential' areas. We're a long way off from hitting bottom folks, we're just getting started.
Take a quick walk over to the Wanted/For Sale section. The cues being sold aren't bringing anywhere near what they're worth and they're having to be 'bumped' for weeks with price cuts just to get a bite. This is NOT normal.

I also think there's the 'glamour factor'. Cuemaking is a fairly unique profession. It has it's own set of celebrities, some of which have done quite well for themselves. They are praised for their talents, abilities and achievements. Nothing wrong with that, they've earned it. But people looking through 'rose colored glasses' overlook a lot of the sacrifice it took to get there.
Now's not the time for additional sacrifice. Soon there will be plenty for everyone.
 
Cue making is growing in the USA still today. But because of the saturation of cuemakers the collectors are picky about what they buy. Bottom line is that most are just part time cuemakers and their equipment is paid for. So if they sell five cues a month or only a few cues a year it is still extra change for doing something they like to do. That is why most are sticking with it. Plus the cue repair money is almost always a good hourly wage in addition to selling a few cues.
 
I Think You Will See Things Getting Better From Here On Out
Some Cues Sell And Some Dont Basicly Your Buying Someones Name
Just Like Art Look At Pictures With Spots Of Paint Selling For 100k Its A Name Game

I Never Buy A Cue I Dont Feel I Can Make Money On Even Though Now Is Tuff Buying And Selling
 
KJ Cues said:
A lot of people are out of work and a lot more are to follow. They see business being done here, some cues being sold and maybe see a shot at a nice side income with a little occupational independence for themselves. What they don't see is that this business is subject to the same dismal economy as they are, actually more so.
Pool is a game; a luxury not an essential. In hard times, luxuries get set aside until you know that you can eat and have a roof over your head.
This business and this sport are heading for deep hardship.
I'm not going to encourage anyone to follow this path, even if it's just as a 'hobby'. If they have the money to buy machinery/equipment, wood, tooling, supplies & etc. they better be hanging on to it because they're going to need it in 'essential' areas. We're a long way off from hitting bottom folks, we're just getting started.
Take a quick walk over to the Wanted/For Sale section. The cues being sold aren't bringing anywhere near what they're worth and they're having to be 'bumped' for weeks with price cuts just to get a bite. This is NOT normal.

I also think there's the 'glamour factor'. Cuemaking is a fairly unique profession. It has it's own set of celebrities, some of which have done quite well for themselves. They are praised for their talents, abilities and achievements. Nothing wrong with that, they've earned it. But people looking through 'rose colored glasses' overlook a lot of the sacrifice it took to get there.
Now's not the time for additional sacrifice. Soon there will be plenty for everyone.
Click to expand...

A lot of what you said here is correct. The economy and market does suck, and since there is less disposable income, that means less cue buying and more cue selling. So who in their right mind would want to throw their hat in the ring now.

Since I have been around cues for a while, I'll tell you how I saw, and see it. When the gallery shows started and the big dollars came out for the older collectibles, some people with minimal wood working skills got those dollar bill pupils. So they wanted in, the problem was then the machinery. So obviously that created a demand, so then more guys with those same pupils started throwing some bearings, slides, and 110v motors together calling them "cuemaking" machinery. So now with all these hobby setups being affordable, more guys started in on cuemaking. Hence cpu's and hobby mills, and Bobcad became easier to get a hold of, and incorporate, now you have cuemakers coming out the yazoo.

How many actually own a "real" lathe? You know, big enough to cut real metal. How many guys that sell both machinery and cues regret putting other people in the cue business?

It's funny you mention sacrifice to get to the upper echelon. Well here is the funny thing, I see so much internet "buzz" and more people sharing info online then those guys had. I think there is a huge difference in a cuemaker that can create his own setups, a thinking man, than one who just wants the quick and easy book/video/ask the cuemaker section, give me all the answers because I don't (can't) figure them out on my own. Hopefully the market will weed out the noobs, see through the internet buzz, and the guys who deserve the money will keep getting the money and those who want to shortcut, shortcut themselves into tip repair.

JV
 
The Dow is Down and so are most other sectors of the STOCK MARKET.
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classiccues said:
Since I have been around cues for a while, I'll tell you how I saw, and see it. When the gallery shows started and the big dollars came out for the older collectibles, some people with minimal wood working skills got those dollar bill pupils. So they wanted in, the problem was then the machinery. So obviously that created a demand, so then more guys with those same pupils started throwing some bearings, slides, and 110v motors together calling them "cuemaking" machinery. So now with all these hobby setups being affordable, more guys started in on cuemaking. Hence cpu's and hobby mills, and Bobcad became easier to get a hold of, and incorporate, now you have cuemakers coming out the yazoo.

How many actually own a "real" lathe? You know, big enough to cut real metal. How many guys that sell both machinery and cues regret putting other people in the cue business?
JV
Click to expand...
I think your dates are a little off. I was building cue repair and cue building equipment before the gallery and before the ACA existed. I think I actually created the demand by providing a product when there was very little demand. I introduced the first light weight cue building lathe in modern history. I was not the first to introduce cue repair equipment. It was Leonard Bludworth who started doing it a few years before I did. He was also the one who started the ACA. If it was not for what he did you would not have the caliper of collectible cues we see today.
You ask how many cuemakers actually own a real lathe? Then you let us know it has to be heavy enough to actually cut metal to be a real lathe. Well my lathes will cut metal, but I know they still do not qualify as real lathes in your opinion, as they are only a litlte over 100 pounds. So I will ask you a couple of questions since you seem to think those using cue lathes are not very talented or deserving of being in the cue making profession. Does it take more skill to turn out a quality cue on a 125 pound lathe or on a 1000 pound "real" lathe? So if it takes less talent to use a "real" lathe, why are those who use "imaginary" or "toy" lathes considered less talented?
Then you asked, "How many guys that sell both machinery and cues regret putting other people in the cue business?"
Well it has been a two edged sword for me. I once sold a lathe to someone over a 150 miles away and he wound up coming to Atlanta and getting the pro-tour coming through town to let him work the tournaments. So it has been a two edge sword as I was the Cue Man at all the pro events for a few years until they relocated to another room. I have sold lathes to people who normally played with my cues who started building their own and quit buying mine.
 
cueman said:
I think your dates are a little off. I was building cue repair and cue building equipment before the gallery and before the ACA existed. I think I actually created the demand by providing a product when there was very little demand. I introduced the first light weight cue building lathe in modern history. I was not the first to introduce cue repair equipment. It was Leonard Bludworth who started doing it a few years before I did. He was also the one who started the ACA. If it was not for what he did you would not have the caliper of collectible cues we see today.
Click to expand...

Chris,
With all due respect, IMHO, your demand came from the hobbyists with the big eyes that wanted to cash in on the collectibility and new prices cues were getting. Maybe you're one of the first to offer the lathe for public consumption but I can tell you I had seen modified benchtop woodworking lathes doing tips, wraps and cleaning before you offered yours publicly. Your second statement is off, IMHO. There were high caliber cues coming out BEFORE Blud and his equipment. The difference which I alluded to was that Szamboti, Stroud, Black, and Wayne etc.. had to build it themselves, as opposed to the luxury of being able to call someone such as yourself to provide the machinery as well as the info.

cueman said:
You ask how many cuemakers actually own a real lathe? Then you let us know it has to be heavy enough to actually cut metal to be a real lathe. Well my lathes will cut metal, but I know they still do not qualify as real lathes in your opinion, as they are only a litlte over 100 pounds. So I will ask you a couple of questions since you seem to think those using cue lathes are not very talented or deserving of being in the cue making profession. Does it take more skill to turn out a quality cue on a 125 pound lathe or on a 1000 pound "real" lathe? So if it takes less talent to use a "real" lathe, why are those who use "imaginary" or "toy" lathes considered less talented?
Click to expand...

Real lathe, yes, metal cutting capable, not so much for the cues, but the fixtures. Can I cut a wide range of metal, carbon steels, stainless, you know 4140, 17-4, metal, on your lathe and still obtain the accuracy to jump back to cues? That statement was more in line to making fixtures and being able to create jigs and the sort, not to making a quality cue per se. I was not questioning your lathes ability to make cues, sorry if you felt it was.

cueman said:
Then you asked, "How many guys that sell both machinery and cues regret putting other people in the cue business?"
Well it has been a two edged sword for me. I once sold a lathe to someone over a 150 miles away and he wound up coming to Atlanta and getting the pro-tour coming through town to let him work the tournaments. So it has been a two edge sword as I was the Cue Man at all the pro events for a few years until they relocated to another room. I have sold lathes to people who normally played with my cues who started building their own and quit buying mine.
Click to expand...

That is why I asked. I remember Blud not liking a certain cuemaker but he did admit to getting him in the business. So that is the double edge as you call it. I hope the profit you make "introducing" new people into the market, offsets the long term losses that will occur when they make their mark selling cues.

JV
 
classiccues said:
Chris,
With all due respect, IMHO, your demand came from the hobbyists with the big eyes that wanted to cash in on the collectibility and new prices cues were getting. Maybe you're one of the first to offer the lathe for public consumption but I can tell you I had seen modified benchtop woodworking lathes doing tips, wraps and cleaning before you offered yours publicly. Your second statement is off, IMHO. There were high caliber cues coming out BEFORE Blud and his equipment. The difference which I alluded to was that Szamboti, Stroud, Black, and Wayne etc.. had to build it themselves, as opposed to the luxury of being able to call someone such as yourself to provide the machinery as well as the info.

JV
Click to expand...
Blud was offering those bench top wood lathes since earlier in the 80's than I started modifying wood lathes myself. Earlier when you talked about cues you mentioned Gallery Shows and those came along much later. Here is what I am talking about you posting.

Since I have been around cues for a while, I'll tell you how I saw, and see it. When the gallery shows started and the big dollars came out for the older collectibles, some people with minimal wood working skills got those dollar bill pupils. So they wanted in, the problem was then the machinery.
Click to expand...

So the time frame (Gallery Shows) you mentioned was years after I had introduced cue building machinery. I had to build my machinery myself also in the beginning, or just like some you mentioned above probably did. They most likely went to a machinist and had him make some fixtures and joint pins for them. So once I saw I could make life easier on others than it had been for me when it came to getting started, I saw a market and went for it. Actually I was encouraged to get into this business by a couple of close friends, once they saw the first lathe I had come up with. One is a very top level cuemaker and another a repairman. Then I tested the waters and talked to various vendors at a BCA expo about what I had built for myself and they all said, "Build us what you built for yourself and we will buy it." So I built it and they bought it. Then I built it better and better and they continued to buy it. Did you say you were a plumber or construction man? Are you glad you have all the new flaring tools and such? Someone simply saw a need and I bet you bought the newer and easier to use tools. I bet the old timers who sweated every copper pipe joint with a torch thought it was like cheating when they made flared and compression fittings for copper pipe and quick connections for hot water heaters. They probably said something like these new plumbers are not "real plumbers". I have heard that said from machinist friends. They say the CNC equipment has left very few "real machinists" any longer. I must admit I felt the same way when I saw new cuemakers who learned CNC machining, building as fancy of cues as it took me years to perfect on pantographs. But that is just where things have gone. It seems the Vocational Tech classes on plumbing are ok. The classes for mechanics are ok. The classes for hair dressers and everything else under the sun is okay to get an education to learn how to do it. Seems everyone wants a degree in their fields. But if someone learns how to build cues the easier way through educational materials and tooling they are looked down on. Where is the logic behind that? After all they have what our equivilant to a degree in cuemaking would be.
 
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People who generally go "They're not proper trades men cause they're doing things the easy way" are essentially people who are either:

#1 Too lazy to learn new techniques
#2 Don't have the ability to
#3 Does not have the ability to adapt to change.

Things in life keep changing, and there's a reason for it. Quality of life. Why struggle for 10 hours, when you can do it in 2 and the final product's quality is equivalent or better? Why do people use computers instead of typewriters? Why do people drive automatic vehicles rather than manual? People who drive automatics are not car enthusiasts/real drivers so they say. I'm sorry what? So F1 drivers are not car enthusiats/good drivers?

It's either you grow with the times and technology, or get left out in the lurch. Take your choice, time waits for no man, especially one that has a archiac mentality.

*rant out*
 
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