How CTE reconciles with Ghost Ball - My Theory (long)

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Folks, I have to get CTE out of my head so I get back to work and also just play when I go to play.

With that in mind I have put a lot of thought into WHY does CTE work. I can't really stand to use something where I don't really understand why or how it works. Given the choice to use Ghost Ball or pure feel which I do understand 100% or CTE which I don't ( or didn't) but with which I am a better player I chose CTE.

But truly it's been a really emotional drain to continually defend something I can't explain. I fully understand the references to religion and tin foil hats etc.... I do think that if some of the people who were being fairly mean about it had instead tried CTE and put their intelligence to work figuring out HOW it works then they could have not only learned a method that might have helped them to play better but also they could have been part of helping everyone to be better.

But that's all water under the bridge. Since they have maintained a contrary position it has forced those of us who are committed to this method of aiming to figure out how and why it works and be able to explain it on demand.

So as a result we now have a comprehensive video out by Stan Shuffet. We have many videos on YouTube where CTE aimers are trying to help others to use the system and we have plenty of other resources with good advice.

We have several top instructors who teach CTE in various forms.

But even after all that there is still not much that reconciles CTE with Ghost Ball.

Stan Shuffet makes the claim that CTE is a "Center Pocket" system. Meaning that proper application beings the player to the shot line which should result in the object ball going into the center of the pocket, in others words to the perfect Ghost Ball position.

JoeyA has said that CTE is mechanically perfect.

These are two claims that have rankled the opponents of CTE because they have asked for and seen no geometric proof that CTE results in providing a shot line that reconciles with the shot line that Ghost Ball gives.

And myself and others have said that it cannot be diagrammed in 2d. We have said that you have to see it on the table and a lot of other stuff to dance around the fact that we have been unable to make CTE reconcile with GB. We know it must because the balls go in. We know that we are not subconsciously adjusting to the shot line. But until now we have not been able to say why and how.

So, I think I have discovered how and why CTE works and how it reconciles with the Ghost Ball method of aiming.

____________________________________________________________

Let me start by saying that this theory has it's orgins in diagrams I did many months ago. And those diagrams were done at full size, with the table and the balls and the cue represented at real size.

What I discovered back then is that the Ghost Ball Line or better said the SHOT LINE and the CTE Line converged across the center of the cue ball and where they exited the back of the cue ball there was VERY LITTLE space between the lines. I don't have the diagram handy and the thread where I first posted a partial rendering of it has been closed or erased due to fighting.

The important thing that came from it is that there was VERY LITTLE difference between the CTE Line and the Shot Line/Ghost Ball Line AT THE CUE BALL's exit point coming towards the shooter.

So, from that point I knew that I had to look at CTE from well behind the cue ball to understand it.

So the next important point is that for any shot where the object ball is going to be shot directly into a pocket the distance between the CTE LINE and the Shot Line is NEVER more than half a ball and is almost always less than a quarter ball AT THE OBJECT BALL.

So if you then go BACK to the cue ball from there you will see that the SHOT LINE and the CTE LINE converge at the Cue Ball and then they diverge out the back of the cueball. BUT they are very close together at the cue ball.

What this means is the if you stand and point down the Center to Edge line from behind the cue ball then it's only a very slight movement to bring your cue to the SHOT LINE. Even if the Shot Line and the Center to Edge line are the full half-ball distance apart at the object ball, which would represent a very thin cut shot, the lines are almost together at the cue ball.

So with these facts in mind I think it's easy enough for everyone to see that it's POSSIBLE to start with a Center to Edge Line for any shot and be jsut a tiny movement away from having the cue pointing through the center of the cueball directly at the Ghost Ball.

This covers all angles and all distances. No matter where the two balls are placed IF it's possible to shoot the object ball directly into a pocket with a dead center cueball then starting with the Center to Edge line works.

Let me stop here and say that THIS is how using the CTE Line works despite moving either of the balls in any direction.

Opponents have often said that it cannot work if you move the cue ball six inches over. Or cannot work if the cue ball is stationary and the object ball is moved along the CTE string.

It is important to note that EVERY SHOT stands alone and no other shot has ANY BEARING whatsoever on the shot being faced. When the balls are moved then it becomes a completely different shot where the shooter MUST move to a different position. Every shot has only ONE shot line that works to pocket the ball.

The Cue Ball has only ONE center. The object ball has only TWO outermost edges that the center can align to. These edges are at 3 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock as measured from the center of the object ball and the center of the cue ball.

This is very important because you must completely forget about cut angles.

The question is asked how can a person do the same thing on two different shots and get the same result?

In this framework the "same thing" refers to using a system where the steps are the same and "same result" refers to pocketing the object ball.

The example is given of two shots with different cut angles and it is said that the shooter cannot follow the same steps and make both shots.

So, remember that every shot stands alone and has ZERO relationship to any other shot.

If you were able to project a ghost ball onto the table which gave you the exact GB position then you could in fact do the same steps for every shot on the table. In fact you MUST do the same steps and those steps would be to place your cue along the line through center cue ball which goes through center GB in order to make the shot with no sidespin. You cannot do anything else and make the ball.

You can move the CB and OB to any position and the steps are exactly the same regardless of cut angle.

The exact same is true of CTE and I will show you why.

Ok.

So now we have established that the CTE line and the GB Line are no more than a half ball apart at the object ball and a fraction of an inch apart at the exit point on the cue ball.

We have established that every shot is unique and has no bearing on any other shot. For every UNIQUE shot there is also a UNIQUE GB/SHOT LINE.

NOTE: This is a SUPER IMPORTANT POINT. - Shots can share a Center to Edge Line but NO TWO SHOTS share a Ghost Ball/Shot Line.

We have established that there is one center and two edges which can be used to determine the CTE Line.

___________________________________________________________


So here it is - this is how the CTE System aligns with the GB system to be geometrically correct and why it works.

When you establish a Center to Edge line that is AWAY from the pocket you are shooting towards then you can place your bridge hand so that the V-groove where the cue rests will be to the right or left of the CTE LINE and then pivot to center cue ball and your cue tip will be pointing to the dead center of the ghost ball through the center of the cue ball.

See my video on this here: It's 20 minutes and boring as hell. The first five minutes are spent drawing lines on the table. Forgive me but I am not able to spend the time doing proper videos with overlays and editing and such. I have a limited amount of time at lunch when it's quiet in the shop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhla1mQd9LU

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The steps as I use them;

1. find the CTE Line and stand with it coming right through my body.
2. put my bridge hand down on the CTE Line with my cue tip pointing at the edge of the cue ball. (This puts your V-groove cue rest just to the side of the CTE Line)
3. Pivot to center cue ball.
4. Take the shot with a true stroke through the object ball.

What Bridge distance to use for any particular shot should come to you naturally. I find that the farther back my bridge distance is the smaller the pivot to center.

This is where practice and development of touch comes in. Using the CTE Line puts you within a half ball AT MOST of the SHOT Line. You MUST develop your own sense of what distance to use for any given shot. But WHERE your bridge goes will NEVER be more than a tiny bit to the left or right of the CTE Line.

In general you will see the line easily and know that you can bridge five inches or 12 inches or 18 inches away. You will develop an excellent "feel" for the shot and what your parameters are.

When I play I do not ever think about how far away from the cueball I am bridging for the purpose of aiming. I only bridge at the distance which is needed for the shot according to what the the layout of the table allows me.


Shots where you have two pocket choices:

When you use CTE you will find that there are certain shots such as when the ball is laying such that you can cut it to the corner or cut it in the side. You can still use CTE for both shots but you will not be using the exact same CTE Line. It becomes EASILY apparent what you have to do when you are facing the shot. The motions are the same.

Feel:

It has been said many times that the CTE User is getting to the shot line through feel. Another way to say it is that they are filling in the space between the CTE Line and the SHOT LINE by guessing what's right based on experience. OR their subconscious is taking over and guiding them to the SHOT LINE.

Because there is not any SET distance where the V-groove of your hand sits to the side of the CTE Line it allows for a certain margin of error. I can set my bridge hand down with the cue tip lined up to the edge of the cue ball and pivot to center and NOT be in line with the Ghost Ball yet be so close as to not know the difference. I can do it right five times and do it wrong three times due to this variance.

This is the biggest variable with using CTE - WHERE to put the bridge hand down.

My experience is that if you simply put your bridge down so that the knuckle on your hand sits right on the CTE Line then the V-Groove will sit just to teh side of the CTE Line and when you pivot you will be right in line with the GB.

Does this ALWAYS work? No. It does not because as a human I can misjudge any part of the process. I can misjudge the CTE Line. I can put too much weight on my bridge and cause it to be too far over, I can screw up my delivery.

BUT for me it works very consistently and for all shots. Doing it this way allows me to make shots that I formerly used to miss VERY badly due to truly being uneasy about where I am aiming. Now if I mess up a shot then I can really pinpoint where it went wrong.
 
In conclusion this post does not cover a lot of the nuance of using the CTE system but rather just shows you that in fact CTE reconciles geometrically with Ghost Ball.

The major advantage that you have by using CTE over Ghost Ball is that you can see objective and concrete things to use for your alignment. Once you get used to using the balls then you will find that making adjustments for spin, throw, cloth speed and cling are much much easier.

In addition you will see that once you can identify the CTE Line then you will also see that you can adjust your aim to put the object ball or the cue ball anywere on the table you like. Using CTE gives you a baseline to work off of that is present on every shot no matter what. You will find that you can see safeties easier, caroms get easier, tickies, cue ball paths, etc.... At least this is my own experience and I feel that it will be yours as well.

I highly recommend that you consider purchasing Stan Shuffet's ProOne video to learn an exact form of CTE. What I use is somewhat homegrown thanks to the helpful advice from Dave Segal, PeteyPoolDude, Mikyjary, and others on AZ. I am still learning.

Unless someone can prove me wrong I feel that what I have said here adequately explains how CTE reconciles with Ghost Ball. I truly welcome any one to take my theory or hypothesis and dig into it some more. If I am wrong then please show me where without insulting me. If I am right then please let me know that.

For me at the moment I do feel a lot better as I now think that I can easily explain how CTE works and why it works.

Thank you for your time and please watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhla1mQd9LU
 
CLARIFICATION: Shots can of course share a GHOST BALL. But no two shots share the same SHOT LINE.
 
that IS a long post :)

i think CTE IS easy to explain, i really do.......

i think there are many different cut angles on a pool table. CTE gets a player "close" to those cut angles (yet not exactly imo), and the player uses his muscle memory to then pocket the ball. in other words, slight adjustments off of CTE. and the big point is, now one has the added confidence under pressure that he has this system that wont fail-- which is a good thing, id never knock it..... id just never try to defend its legitimacy in front of a panel of nasa scientists with my life at stake, because that would be a losing battle no matter how you cut it.
 
that IS a long post :)

i think CTE IS easy to explain, i really do.......

i think there are many different cut angles on a pool table. CTE gets a player "close" to those cut angles (yet not exactly imo), and the player uses his muscle memory to then pocket the ball. in other words, slight adjustments off of CTE. and the big point is, now one has the added confidence under pressure that he has this system that wont fail-- which is a good thing, id never knock it..... id just never try to defend its legitimacy in front of a panel of nasa scientists with my life at stake, because that would be a losing battle no matter how you cut it.

I don't think so Enzo. I think that you are right that the CTE Line gets you close - within half a ball always. It does. In fact you could do the EXACT same thing starting with a center to center alignment, of that I am sure.

But the point of this post is that it IS defensible because it is mathematically precise. I can't do the math but I would bet everything I own that someone can.

Edited: It's not muscle memory that gets you to the Shot Line from the CTE Line. It's the placement of the bridge hand ON the CTE line which then places the cue stick to the side of the CTE line. THEN the pivot to center CB brings the cue tip into the shot line which is perfectly aligned with where the Ghost Ball would be sitting.

For a lot of us our muscle memory is telling us that we are lined up WRONG when we use CTE because we have lined up wrong all of our lives and then compensated with body english to make the shot go.

Let me say it like this. If you line up ANYWHERE reasonably close to the shot line by any method then you can definitely steer it in with the right combination of speed and spin. And if you subscribe to the million balls method of learning to play then you will "learn" to make these adjustments if you don't want to kill your self over constantly missing. The problem with this type of learning is that it IS very dependent on particular shots with shots getting harder and harder to "steer" properly as they get "tougher".

With CTE every shot looks the same as far as difficulty goes. Literally this means that a short shallow cut is as hard as a long thin one. Both require proper set up and the same execution.

This to me is why CTE users report feeling like they can't miss. Because for the first time in their lives they are truly aligned with the ghost ball every time and don't have to steer the ball in. They don't have to think about whether or not they are lined up right, they are.

And I do think that if someone uses CTE then they will develop the muscle memory you speak of and then as time goes by they will rely less and less on the 1-2-3 steps and will then really "see" the shot properly.

As Geno says below CTE forces the user's eyes onto the right line. Stan says the body follows the eyes. I personally think that CTE is in fact more mechanical than that. I think that it's a very definite mechanical move that results in being lined up to the shot line. And that is the putting the bridge hand on the CTE line and the pivot to center. That move is the key.

Essentially if I placed a ghost ball on the table for any shot and told you to put your bridge hand down so that cue tip was pointing through center cue ball at the GB center then I confident that 99% of the time your bridge hand would be on the Center to Edge line.

So clearly IF you have the GB then you don't need CTE.

But the GB does not exist. Some people can visualize it reasonably accurately and others can't. Those that can develop a muscle memory that puts them on the shot line fairly consistently. Those that can't struggle and have a muscle memory that is equally developed but it's tied to poor mechanics since without the extra "steering" to compensate for NOT being on the center ball shot line they would never make a ball.
 
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John thanks to you, and Spyder Web Dot Com I have learn CTE. not sure I know it all, but you, and Spyder Web Dot Com layed out the basics, and i spent the timelearn how to do what makes CTE work for me.
 
CLARIFICATION: Shots can of course share a GHOST BALL. But no two shots share the same SHOT LINE.
You have this backwards. No two shots share the same ghost ball (assuming same pocket), but they can share the same shot line.
 
You have this backwards. No two shots share the same ghost ball (assuming same pocket), but they can share the same shot line.

No, I don't think so. The only shots which can share the same shot line and ghost ball are straight in shots.

Take any ball and set it up and there is ONE Ghost Ball for it and only one. Edited to clarify. When a ball is intended to go into a particular pocket then there is only ONE Ghost Ball that works for that object ball----->pocket set up.

Place the cue ball at various positions around it and the ghost ball never changes for any of those shots.

But each shot has ONE unique shot line. (exceptions being straight in shots)

Watch my video and you can see this easily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhla1mQd9LU
 
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I am going to bump this until all of you have had a chance to read it. I really think it's the "missing link" that shows that CTE is really mechanically sound and geometrically correct.

This isn't an informercial for CTE but is instead simply my attempt to bring clarity to it so that Ghost Ballers, and Hit A Million Ballers, and Arrow users can all see that CTE does in fact end up on the GB line.

I know it's long and boring. I will make it shorter and concise later.

But right now I am going to bed. Good night everyone.
 
John, I sent you an iTrader on 1/20/2011 for our transaction. On 1/22/2011 I sent you an email about the issues in shipping and a reminder about the iTrader. I would also like to have an update on my case that has already been paid for seeing as how you have all this available time to discuss aiming systems.


Thank you in advance,
Chris


I am hoping to at least get a reply here since I do not get replies any other way. :shakehead:
 
Started to read the first post. Opinions after I finish it tomorrow LOL

PS : I appreciate your efforts John. Even I didn't ever used this system, I will give it a try
 
John, I sent you an iTrader on 1/20/2011 for our transaction. On 1/22/2011 I sent you an email about the issues in shipping and a reminder about the iTrader. I would also like to have an update on my case that has already been paid for seeing as how you have all this available time to discuss aiming systems.


Thank you in advance,
Chris


I am hoping to at least get a reply here since I do not get replies any other way. :shakehead:

Well as you can see I said at the beginning of the post that I NEED to get this out of my head. Frankly it's become a bit obsessive.

I think that with this post I should be pretty much done with CTE because in my mind it's now something I can explain clearly.

I would kind of appreciate it if you all wouldn't try and micromanage my life though. My wife and I are rearranging our shop so that she can focus on the customer service since I totally suck at it. What I like to do is create and I hate to do the grunt work of answering emails and doing drawings and making sure Itraders are done, etc.... I know that I am really terrible about these things.

That said I don't stop being a person and a player and it's unlikely that I will stop discussing what interests me even though I am neglecting things I should be doing. I am somewhat ADD in this respect and my grandfather would probably just call me lazy.

However you have hit on the way to communicate with me instantly, just post in a thread :-)

Sorry Chris I know that this isn't funny to you but it's kind of funny to me and sad at the same time.

So hopefully I can start to put this CTE stuff behind me and just chill now that I have some real clarity. And hopefully that translates into more cases getting done quicker.

(misunderstanding snipped)
 
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Given the choice to use Ghost Ball or pure feel which I do understand 100% or CTE which I don't ( or didn't) but with which I am a better player I chose CTE.


But those aren't the only choices. There's another choice with no guessing and no adjusting, no estimating, just trusting and delivering, but what the heck, I guess you can lead a horse to water but ya can't make em drink it. :shrug: I suppose I do understand why you've omitted it as a choice, it's so simple it can't work. We need pages and pages of explanation, snap lines, protractors, compasses ........ :)
 
Well as you can see I said at the beginning of the post that I NEED to get this out of my head. Frankly it's become a bit obsessive.

I think that with this post I should be pretty much done with CTE because in my mind it's now something I can explain clearly.

I would kind of appreciate it if you all wouldn't try and micromanage my life though. My wife and I are rearranging our shop so that she can focus on the customer service since I totally suck at it. What I like to do is create and I hate to do the grunt work of answering emails and doing drawings and making sure Itraders are done, etc.... I know that I am really terrible about these things.

That said I don't stop being a person and a player and it's unlikely that I will stop discussing what interests me even though I am neglecting things I should be doing. I am somewhat ADD in this respect and my grandfather would probably just call me lazy.

However you have hit on the way to communicate with me instantly, just post in a thread :-)

Sorry Chris I know that this isn't funny to you but it's kind of funny to me and sad at the same time.

So hopefully I can start to put this CTE stuff behind me and just chill now that I have some real clarity. And hopefully that translates into more cases getting done quicker.

P.S. I replied right way to your email about the shipping issues in detail. Were you looking for some sort of compensation from me due to the shipping company's poor service to you? Like I said in the email we can get no compensation from the company we shipped with for the issue you described.

John,

I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR PERSONAL TIME!


This is the only way to contact you. You do not have a problem with having my money in your pocket. You will never get it CTE out of your head. You are obsessive about this. You are right at one thing, it is sad.

I was mot looking for any compensation. I was trying to tell you the carrier you use SUCKS!!!!!! Then my reply to you was that I understood. If you read it, you would not have written such drivel.

I have actually had a pretty bad experience dealing with you John. Unfortunately it is my fault. Like you say, you are what you are.


Chris
 
But those aren't the only choices. There's another choice with no guessing and no adjusting, no estimating, just trusting and delivering, but what the heck, I guess you can lead a horse to water but ya can't make em drink it. :shrug: I suppose I do understand why you've omitted it as a choice, it's so simple it can't work. We need pages and pages of explanation, snap lines, protractors, compasses ........ :)

Um I think that I said using feel which would be trusting and delivering.

To me that's pretty much the definition of pure feel.
 
John,

I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR PERSONAL TIME!


This is the only way to contact you. You do not have a problem with having my money in your pocket. You will never get it CTE out of your head. You are obsessive about this. You are right at one thing, it is sad.

I was mot looking for any compensation. I was trying to tell you the carrier you use SUCKS!!!!!! Then my reply to you was that I understood. If you read it, you would not have written such drivel.

I have actually had a pretty bad experience dealing with you John. Unfortunately it is my fault. Like you say, you are what you are.


Chris

You're right, I am sorry. I didn't see your reply. Itrader is done.
 
Ah, then you don't know of the real way to aim ... I assumed you read the thread ... sorry.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=210645

:)

Here is the link http://vimeo.com/17200520

Here is the password without the quotes--> "thanks dave"

Oh I see what you mean. Honestly I think that this ferrule aiming method is probably pretty close to the CTE method if one were to really get into it.

I tried it and it works. I don't like it as much as CTE but then again I didn't really give it a lot of time. SVB says he uses his ferrule to aim with and that definitely got my attention.
 
Oh I see what you mean. Honestly I think that this ferrule aiming method is probably pretty close to the CTE method if one were to really get into it.

I tried it and it works. I don't like it as much as CTE but then again I didn't really give it a lot of time. SVB says he uses his ferrule to aim with and that definitely got my attention.

Yes, it works because it corrects specifically what the difficulty is with aiming a cue ball at an object ball.

The point of aim is not the same as the point of contact because of the leading edges of the round spheres. Using the edges of the shaft eliminates these differences and makes the point of aim the same as the point of contact.

I believe thinking of this way of aiming as "aiming with the ferrule" is doing an injustice to your mental perception of the technique.

The ferrule is only an inch or so long, better is to think of this as aiming with the shaft, mentally making this line extend from the joint of the shaft to infinity, like a laser beam.

As an example, try cutting a shot to the left. As you get down, envision this laser beam extending out as far as the eye can see along the left edge of the shaft. Once you establish the spot to hit on the OB, start out in your stance, and see this laser a few inches off, to the right of the contact point on the OB. Slowly move left until you feel the laser just touch the point of contact on the OB.

This is the exact line of aim. From this point on, no matter what english you put on the shot, stay on this line. BTW, once you get used to this, once you are on this line, you will quickly be able to shoot by feel. Once I'm on this line, I envision the OB's line to the pocket and watch the OB follow that line to the pocket.

Take a few practice strokes, stop at the CB seeing that line, then stroke straight along it with the side of your shaft, being sure the left edge of the shaft covers the line as you stroke. The rest of your shaft should be outside that line to the right of it. Of course it's just the opposite for cutting to the right.

This way the line is far more extended than merely trying to envision aiming with just the ferrule.

Just a way to experiment with the system. It may help you trust it until you get used to it. :)
 
Yes, it works because it corrects specifically what the difficulty is with aiming a cue ball at an object ball.

The point of aim is not the same as the point of contact because of the leading edges of the round spheres. Using the edges of the shaft eliminates these differences and makes the point of aim the same as the point of contact.

I believe thinking of this way of aiming as "aiming with the ferrule" is doing an injustice to your mental perception of the technique.

The ferrule is only an inch or so long, better is to think of this as aiming with the shaft, mentally making this line extend from the joint of the shaft to infinity, like a laser beam.

As an example, try cutting a shot to the left. As you get down, envision this laser beam extending out as far as the eye can see along the left edge of the shaft. Once you establish the spot to hit on the OB, start out in your stance, and see this laser a few inches off, to the right of the contact point on the OB. Slowly move left until you feel the laser just touch the point of contact on the OB.

This is the exact line of aim. From this point on, no matter what english you put on the shot, stay on this line. BTW, once you get used to this, once you are on this line, you will quickly be able to shoot by feel. Once I'm on this line, I envision the OB's line to the pocket and watch the OB follow that line to the pocket.

Take a few practice strokes, stop at the CB seeing that line, then stroke straight along it with the side of your shaft, being sure the left edge of the shaft covers the line as you stroke. The rest of your shaft should be outside that line to the right of it. Of course it's just the opposite for cutting to the right.

This way the line is far more extended than merely trying to envision aiming with just the ferrule.

Just a way to experiment with the system. It may help you trust it until you get used to it. :)

Actually the ferrule/stick aiming method puts you visually on about the same line Cte puts you on. The pivot brings Cte to the exact same line. If you line up with the ferrule, stop and see how you are almost lined up center to edge and where your other edge of the cue ball lines up at.

You are both right. The pivot and the ferrule diameter compensate for the edge of the cue ball not allowing you to hit the contact/ghost ball point.

Best,
Mike
 
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