How Did Tony Ellin Die?

larrynj1 said:
who the hell is eric??

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You, you are stealing my name, my identity, have done it boo coo times before, you live in NYC over in Joy Zee, you post as preacher, had a logo with a monkey, which of course had a stronge resemblance to you, probably one of your relatives. This is one of your little alias's you attack me with. Grow up kid, put it to rest, post in your real name, just let it ride, get off my butt, how hard is that to do I now ask? :cool: :cool: :cool:
 
larrynj1 said:
who the hell is eric??
Hi uncle larry,

A guy named Eric and Fast Larry had a nasty spat a few years ago when Fast Larry first discovered pool forums. As you know, Fast Larry can be abrasive sometimes.

Nowadays, pretty much anyone who disagrees with Fast Larry in public when Fast Larry is having one of his argumentative days is accused of being Eric in disguise.

If you can just let it slide, I hope Fast Larry can let it slide as well.
 
Matt26 said:
... The point is our champions can't make enough to KEEP from doing this dimestore crap. All these guys know is pool, and have nothing else to make money from, so they have to do what they have to do to support their families. ...

I have to side with FL on this one, but if they made more money it wouldn't keep them from dumping, it would only raise the price to dump. That is why the major professional sports in the USA (football, baseball, basketball, and hockey) come down so hard on gambling. They know the nature of people (not just athletes mind you) and that if they leave the door open a crack corruption will pour in. Not with everyone, but with enough people to ruin the game.
IMHO.
 
Steve Ellis said:
I have to side with FL on this one, but if they made more money it wouldn't keep them from dumping, it would only raise the price to dump. That is why the major professional sports in the USA (football, baseball, basketball, and hockey) come down so hard on gambling. They know the nature of people (not just athletes mind you) and that if they leave the door open a crack corruption will pour in. Not with everyone, but with enough people to ruin the game.
IMHO.

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Exactly which is why they kicked Rose out of baseball, fear of another blacksox scandle, so they sacrifice a good guy to scare everyone else back into line. You cannot have the pros gambling in any sport, or it will end up where pool is to day, going down by the bow with no respect from the press or the media. I am just the messenger here, do not shoot, your messengers.

Fast Larry Guninger
 
Efren was approached by some fellow filipinos to dump a meaningless match last year in Cardiff. I was there. Efren was a 12-1 favorite and could have made a pretty good score. He refused and drilled the guy 5-0 or 5-1.

Last week in Queens all the money was on Archer- He was top $ in the Calcutta. He won. Larry's against the money formula failed here as it has in countless tournaments i have attended. I dont deny there is a an occasional dump in pool at ALL LEVELS but it is not rampant in the bigger tournaments.
 
Nostroke said:
Efren was approached by some fellow filipinos to dump a meaningless match last year in Cardiff. I was there. Efren was a 12-1 favorite and could have made a pretty good score. He refused and drilled the guy 5-0 or 5-1.

Last week in Queens all the money was on Archer- He was top $ in the Calcutta. He won. Larry's against the money formula failed here as it has in countless tournaments i have attended. I dont deny there is a an occasional dump in pool at ALL LEVELS but it is not rampant in the bigger tournaments.

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I am sure you are right, nobody dumps every match, but we now all seem to agree, it is there, has always been there. You even confirm what I said, the phillipinos stage dumping, perhaps the price was not right or the deal was not good enough, if you do not speak fluent spanish, then you did not hear what was really going on, and I wonder why they would set up a dump with other ears hearing it any way, that seems really dumb and these people are triple smart when it comes to gambling and money. Maybe Efren refused them early on so he could get more later when they had to have him dump.

If Efren is winning all the worlds and every final, the odds on him go into the tank. When he keeps dogging the finals and keeps losing all the big ones, now he's getting as you said, 12 to 1, instead of 3 to 1. Reference Fast Eddy teaching vincent this in the color of money. When Efren first came over here to gamble and play tour events, he used a fake name and aks's, until he became so well known he then used his own name. These boys have no honor, no codes of conduct, its only grab the money and run, that is their only code.
The Phillipinos are nothing but a traveling pack of wolves.

Read what I said, I did not drop a name, I said a pro, un named, loses to nobodies in all these smaller events, the regionals, but wins the majority of the big name events, I call that dumping, do you have a better explanation for that. In the smaller events, every one bets on him because they cannot see any way old local gomer can beat him, and somehow gomer comes through, I wonder how. You boys will figure out who this guy is I am sure. I repeat, I did not name any names here. What he does in these local events is his little sand box and I really don't want to upset it.
 
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Why would you even say this crap? First of all, why would Tony dump to Nick if the plan was for LeBron to win? I don't even know if you're talking about the same tournament! Secondly, even if that did happen, which it didn't in this particular case, why do you feel the need to accuse the guy in a public forum? He isn't even here anymore to defend himself! Who are you? I've been to every tournament worth going to (with the exception of Derby City), either as a player or a spectator, over the course of the last 15 years or so, and I have never once seen you. I've never seen you play anyone. I've never seen you hanging out with any of the people that you speak of as if you have the inside track on them. I've never even heard of you until you started posting on these forums with your claims of world records! John McChesney, who has been around pool forever and ran one of the more successful tours in this country in the last 20 years or so, has posted on this very subject and said that HE has never heard of you. My point is, if nobody knows you, it's pretty damn doubtful that you have some sort of inside information on any of the players. This post of yours was completely tasteless. Unless you have a signed affidavit from Tony stating that he dumped to Nick, as far as I'm concerned, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tony was a real nice guy, and very well liked in the pool community. What happened to him, and what his family is still dealing with, was a total tragedy. Why don't you show a little class and not accuse the guy of something that probably didn't even happen?



ramdadingdong said:
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What you saw was Tony dumping, taking a dive, going into the tank, which was why you could not believe it, that is why. The mistake made, was to bring in 10 pool players and say, one of you gets 50 grand, the other 9 go home broke. They will cut up the event every time which they did. Sigel was the ring leader of it, he said, who is the guy nobody can figure can win, answer, Spanish Mike. The bookies put odds on the pool players for the first time and LeBron was 20 to one. They take the 50K, divide it by 10, each one gets 5K, they lay the 5k on Mike at 20-1 and had the longest odds in the field and the entire field dumped and went into the tank. It's a wonder somebody did not get killed over this. Varner did the worst dumping I had ever seen, he was so bad he did not even make it look good. Any one who played Mike, when they would get to the 7 they would miss and give him an easy run out. The industry has done all they could to cover this one up and did do a good job of that.

This was so obvious, the word was out at once, this became common knowledge and Braun denies it, but it did occur. Sigel soon was dropped by Brunswick, the bookies will no longer lay odds on pool players there and they are un welcome at most of the casinos, they have burned so many bridges there they can never be repaired. What this proves is all those pros were ho's, they went for the cash, screw the tin cup. One of that group even bought one of his world titles, gave his first place check to his opponent to dump in the final, so they guy took his 25K first place check and the 2nd place check and ran with the dough, the other guy took the tin cup and title. I know about 3 of these which have been bought, the other two, my lips are sealed as these people are friends of mine.

Dumping and cutting up the crowd is rampant even in these local semi pro venues and calcuttas. You have this one pro who always seems to lose these to nobodies, but when he plays in the big time events, he wins most of them, it does not take inspector Cleaseau to know what he is doing, betting on the other guy, dumping, takes the money and runs. What is so amazing is how most of you just do not see this going on. Even when I sit people down, explain it to them ahead of time, who is going to win and why, it happens that way, they still think I am nuts.

I would not bet a penny on any pool player. I would only bet on my self, then I am sure, I won't sell me out and down the river.

I can hear it now, oh he's just some ding dong who does not know nuttin, don't believe that nut case. None is so blind, as he who will not see the truth staring him in the face. Once more, I tell it like it is, tell the truth, watch me get ripped for this. :D :D :D
 
Jimmy, TAP! TAP! TAP!! You said it all extremely well!!!




Jimmy M. said:
Why would you even say this crap? First of all, why would Tony dump to Nick if the plan was for LeBron to win? I don't even know if you're talking about the same tournament! Secondly, even if that did happen, which it didn't in this particular case, why do you feel the need to accuse the guy in a public forum? He isn't even here anymore to defend himself! Who are you? I've been to every tournament worth going to (with the exception of Derby City), either as a player or a spectator, over the course of the last 15 years or so, and I have never once seen you. I've never seen you play anyone. I've never seen you hanging out with any of the people that you speak of as if you have the inside track on them. I've never even heard of you until you started posting on these forums with your claims of world records! John McChesney, who has been around pool forever and ran one of the more successful tours in this country in the last 20 years or so, has posted on this very subject and said that HE has never heard of you. My point is, if nobody knows you, it's pretty damn doubtful that you have some sort of inside information on any of the players. This post of yours was completely tasteless. Unless you have a signed affidavit from Tony stating that he dumped to Nick, as far as I'm concerned, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tony was a real nice guy, and very well liked in the pool community. What happened to him, and what his family is still dealing with, was a total tragedy. Why don't you show a little class and not accuse the guy of something that probably didn't even happen?
 
Jimmy M. said:
Why would you even say this crap? First of all, why would Tony dump to Nick if the plan was for LeBron to win? I don't even know if you're talking about the same tournament! Secondly, even if that did happen, which it didn't in this particular case, why do you feel the need to accuse the guy in a public forum? He isn't even here anymore to defend himself! Who are you? I've been to every tournament worth going to (with the exception of Derby City), either as a player or a spectator, over the course of the last 15 years or so, and I have never once seen you. I've never seen you play anyone. I've never seen you hanging out with any of the people that you speak of as if you have the inside track on them. I've never even heard of you until you started posting on these forums with your claims of world records! John McChesney, who has been around pool forever and ran one of the more successful tours in this country in the last 20 years or so, has posted on this very subject and said that HE has never heard of you. My point is, if nobody knows you, it's pretty damn doubtful that you have some sort of inside information on any of the players. This post of yours was completely tasteless. Unless you have a signed affidavit from Tony stating that he dumped to Nick, as far as I'm concerned, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tony was a real nice guy, and very well liked in the pool community. What happened to him, and what his family is still dealing with, was a total tragedy. Why don't you show a little class and not accuse the guy of something that probably didn't even happen?

It's not the same tournament. Tony and Nick played the "finals" and Nick won the Challenge of Champions that year. It was like I said, there would be no benefit to Tony dumping...and I just think he missed the shot. Sometimes, we all MISS shots. You could tell by the reaction on Nick's face that he got lucky..and made it count. It's like I've told Larry. I've watched and re-watched this match many times and I don't think he dumped. Plus, logically there would be no reason for Tony to dump.

The year Lebron won the Challenge of Champions is a whole different year/tournament/field of players. I don't know, nor do I care, to find out the validity of Larry's story there. My point was, I don't think Tony dumped.

To close it off, Tony Ellin was a legendary tournament player, gambler, and a heck of a nice guy. He is missed in the pool world and I know by his loved ones. Let's all show him some respect and keep his name out of posts about dumping from here on.

As far as the current players, it makes for an interesting topic if you have some reasonable valid information to back up your personal opinions.
 
Jimmy M. said:
Why would you even say this crap? First of all, why would Tony dump to Nick if the plan was for LeBron to win? I don't even know if you're talking about the same tournament! Secondly, even if that did happen, which it didn't in this particular case, why do you feel the need to accuse the guy in a public forum? He isn't even here anymore to defend himself! Who are you? I've been to every tournament worth going to (with the exception of Derby City), either as a player or a spectator, over the course of the last 15 years or so, and I have never once seen you. I've never seen you play anyone. I've never seen you hanging out with any of the people that you speak of as if you have the inside track on them. I've never even heard of you until you started posting on these forums with your claims of world records! John McChesney, who has been around pool forever and ran one of the more successful tours in this country in the last 20 years or so, has posted on this very subject and said that HE has never heard of you. My point is, if nobody knows you, it's pretty damn doubtful that you have some sort of inside information on any of the players. This post of yours was completely tasteless. Unless you have a signed affidavit from Tony stating that he dumped to Nick, as far as I'm concerned, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tony was a real nice guy, and very well liked in the pool community. What happened to him, and what his family is still dealing with, was a total tragedy. Why don't you show a little class and not accuse the guy of something that probably didn't even happen?

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For the deal to work, all 9 have to dump, and LeBron agree to win and split 10 ways. 9 of these guys are still alive, so it's not like I am dumping on Tony's memory, may he rest in peace, this is about 10 people, the damage they did to pool, the damage they did in Vegas and how not to bet on pool players and get suckered in. It's not about just one who has left us, so please don't use that one against me, that one is not fair. Like I said, if you don't like the message, which is historical facts, do not shoot your messenger.

If I don't know nothing, then how do I come up with these things. Do you think I just sit around and invent this stuff up? This dump was even discussed in the magazines at the time, I am quite surprised none of you know about it, and I assume the ones who do, are keeping their mouths shut tight. You see the industry has their mouths duct tape closed, that is the problem here. John does not know me becasue I do not enter in or play in semi pro or pro 9 ball events, I play in only artistic events, as far as nobody knowing who I am, I have appeared every year since 97 at the BCA Vegas shows, the Allen Hopkins Expos, the Super Show in Vegas, pools 3 biggest shows. How do you miss a guy with a 135 lb dog on a pool table. I have been on every prime time major TV network, espn here, espn asia, 2/6ths of the world, 2 billion people have now read about me or seen me play on TV. If all you do is watch the cops tv show, then you missed me. I am going to be on several new prime time shows which begin filming in early october, Regis will be one of them, I'll post when they come on, just so you don't miss me this time around.

I entertain in a world of corporate events, trade shows, military bases, malls, fairs, TV shows, most of my activity no longer is in pool halls where the money is not or in tourneys when they are starving and they want to waive your entry fee for your show. It is my goal in life to play pool in public every day and never enter a pool hall ever again, I am getting close to that reality.
 
ramdadingdong said:
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For the deal to work, all 9 have to dump, and LeBron agree to win and split 10 ways. 9 of these guys are still alive, so it's not like I am dumping on Tony's memory, may he rest in peace, this is about 10 people, the damage they did to pool, the damage they did in Vegas and how not to bet on pool players and get suckered in. It's not about just one who has left us, so please don't use that one against me, that one is not fair. Like I said, if you don't like the message, which is historical facts, do not shoot your messenger.

If I don't know nothing, then how do I come up with these things. Do you think I just sit around and invent this stuff up? This dump was even discussed in the magazines at the time, I am quite surprised none of you know about it, and I assume the ones who do, are keeping their mouths shut tight. You see the industry has their mouths duct tape closed, that is the problem here. John does not know me becasue I do not enter in or play in semi pro or pro 9 ball events, I play in only artistic events, as far as nobody knowing who I am, I have appeared every year since 97 at the BCA Vegas shows, the Allen Hopkins Expos, the Super Show in Vegas, pools 3 biggest shows. How do you miss a guy with a 135 lb dog on a pool table. I have been on every prime time major TV network, espn here, espn asia, 2/6ths of the world, 2 billion people have now read about me or seen me play on TV. If all you do is watch the cops tv show, then you missed me. I am going to be on several new prime time shows which begin filming in early october, Regis will be one of them, I'll post when they come on, just so you don't miss me this time around.

I entertain in a world of corporate events, trade shows, military bases, malls, fairs, TV shows, most of my activity no longer is in pool halls where the money is not or in tourneys when they are starving and they want to waive your entry fee for your show. It is my goal in life to play pool in public every day and never enter a pool hall ever again, I am getting close to that reality.

Fast Larry,

The tournament where Tony lost to Nick was in the FINALS. Nick won the Challenge of Champions that year (which was in 93 or 94). The year Mike Lebron won the Challenge of Champions was a totally different year. Now I don't know if Tony played in that tournament as well, but when he lost to Nick, it was in the finals and Tony came in second, which unfortunately in that tournament paid nothing.
 
Matt26 said:
It's not the same tournament. Tony and Nick played the "finals" and Nick won the Challenge of Champions that year. It was like I said, there would be no benefit to Tony dumping...and I just think he missed the shot. Sometimes, we all MISS shots. You could tell by the reaction on Nick's face that he got lucky..and made it count. It's like I've told Larry. I've watched and re-watched this match many times and I don't think he dumped. Plus, logically there would be no reason for Tony to dump.

The year Lebron won the Challenge of Champions is a whole different year/tournament/field of players. I don't know, nor do I care, to find out the validity of Larry's story there. My point was, I don't think Tony dumped.

To close it off, Tony Ellin was a legendary tournament player, gambler, and a heck of a nice guy. He is missed in the pool world and I know by his loved ones. Let's all show him some respect and keep his name out of posts about dumping from here on.

As far as the current players, it makes for an interesting topic if you have some reasonable valid information to back up your personal opinions.

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You know, you may be right, I now do not think Tony was even in the event I am discussing, so his name now becomes a mute point, so consider that put to bed. The dumped event, was the first one held at the Mirage.
As some people are getting up set with this, I now leave this thread not to return, this is my last post on this subject.
 
ramdadingdong said:
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You know, you may be right, I now do not think Tony was even in the event I am discussing, so his name now becomes a mute point, so consider that put to bed. The dumped event, was the first one held at the Mirage.
As some people are getting up set with this, I now leave this thread not to return, this is my last post on this subject.
Get ALL of your facts straight before smearing a guys name in a forum, especially a guy who is no longer with us. If a dump happened, who cares? It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that this could have happened. But for you to bring this up here, in a thread about how a guy was killed, is tasteless. You've got issues Larry, major issues.
 
Rude Dog said:
Get ALL of your facts straight before smearing a guys name in a forum, especially a guy who is no longer with us. If a dump happened, who cares? It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that this could have happened. But for you to bring this up here, in a thread about how a guy was killed, is tasteless. You've got issues Larry, major issues.


Very well said.

Kent Mc.
 
if you are not a fan of the circus, you probably missed fast larry's circus act.
i hope the leg is better after those nasty bites, fl.

LMAO!!
 
I didn't read every post in this thread.....but, Is this a Forum or a Gossip Board??? I'm glad that Fast Larry informed some of the newbies beware of getting dumped. BUT, Fast Larry didn't have to mention any names. Many Pool Players have dumped before only to realize that it wasn't worth it and have never lost on purpose again. Some of the guys you mentioned about the Challenge of Champions would probably tell you that they would never do it again. As far as Jeremy Jones in the finals of the OPEN......You must not know Jeremy and you must not have really watched the match real close. Jeremy shot very very good.......very high accustat score I believe...a .920. He just shot really slow and that threw Parica off a little bit. Parica even accused Jeremy of shooting slow on purpose to shark him. Johnny and Jeremy are two guys that do gamble but are known as good honest guys. Sure, There are plenty of guys still doing a lot of "Business" out there...........Just make sure you know it for a fact before you go off making accusations on an international forum. At the Pro Level.......All it takes is one bad break or one slight lapse in concentration and You LOSE.....even if you are EFREN.
 
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If I ever see you FL I will bust you in the mouth :mad: To degrade a guy that is no longer here and was a great friend to me and many of my friends and then be wrong is disgusting. If I were you I would delete all of your posts.

Go back to your village, they miss their idiot.
 
Jimmy M. said:
Why would you even say this crap? First of all, why would Tony dump to Nick if the plan was for LeBron to win? I don't even know if you're talking about the same tournament! Secondly, even if that did happen, which it didn't in this particular case, why do you feel the need to accuse the guy in a public forum? He isn't even here anymore to defend himself! Who are you? I've been to every tournament worth going to (with the exception of Derby City), either as a player or a spectator, over the course of the last 15 years or so, and I have never once seen you. I've never seen you play anyone. I've never seen you hanging out with any of the people that you speak of as if you have the inside track on them. I've never even heard of you until you started posting on these forums with your claims of world records! John McChesney, who has been around pool forever and ran one of the more successful tours in this country in the last 20 years or so, has posted on this very subject and said that HE has never heard of you. My point is, if nobody knows you, it's pretty damn doubtful that you have some sort of inside information on any of the players. This post of yours was completely tasteless. Unless you have a signed affidavit from Tony stating that he dumped to Nick, as far as I'm concerned, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tony was a real nice guy, and very well liked in the pool community. What happened to him, and what his family is still dealing with, was a total tragedy. Why don't you show a little class and not accuse the guy of something that probably didn't even happen?

Because he can Jimmy!!!!! That is what the ignore function is for.
Purdman :cool:
 
For the record it was not the same event.

Varner won one and the other one was won by Lebron over Buddy Hall
I am pretty sure.
What I am sure about is that Lebron started the week at 40-1 to win with it being booked by Vegas. The event was in Vegas.
In the finals he was still 20-1 or so.

I can remember Buddy missing an easy 2 ball in one match that looked funny.
I asked someone who would know and he said it was a dump amonhst all the guys. There were only I think 8 people in the event.
The guy I asked made money on this and not just a little.
Vegas has since to book pool.

It happens more than people think even on smaller tournament levels.
Another thing you can watch for is players cutting savers. I used to
make alot of money after the first few games of matches because
I would guess a saver had been made. What it does is that the person
losing almost gives up because he has part of the guy beating him and
the match gets out of control. It happened this weekend in San Diego
as a matter of fact.
Until the money gets better its gonna happen. Hohman was 1000-1 and he won.....err I mean he came out in first place!!

The one thing that has always made me wonder is that the better players
should make the dump look better. Would Ellin have missed an easy 5 or another shot? Would Buddy have missed the cut on the 2 against Lebron?

I have been witness to a classic dump in the south once and if I had not known beforehand I would have never known. It was two very good regional
players and they dumped a hill-hill match.
I have not seen anything other than savers in the last couple years. Well that and some very well kown gamblers playing sets and taking off the rail.

I will very seldom ever bet on a big money match again on the side. That was insane. 2 guys played and a couple more worked the side action byt the
game and set. They basically just split the up money from the side bets
and if one side got real heavy they would lose the other way and split it later.
I saw it twice with mostly same people.
Its gambling...you have to be careful
 
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