How Do Players Double-Dump?

One of my favorite things is listening to the old AccuStats commentary and since they were not really allowed to talk about gambling of the seedy side of pool much there were lots of quick subject changes. Grady one time said "the balls know when you dogged a ball, or were mean to your wife, or dumped somebody" then quickly said "dumped them off at the wrong place" LOL
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Found the passage in McGoorty quoted on a webpage:

Dan McGoorty: The Life of a Billiards Hustler | Gaming and Destinations

gaminganddestinations.com gaminganddestinations.com
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Interesting that he decided hiding your speed was stealing and only took thirty years to make that decision! He seems cooler with outright con's which I find odd.

A pool player on the road is plying his trade. Just like swinging a hammer wide open all the time, it is hard work to play your best pool all of the time! Nobody gets the absolute maximum they can get done all day every day on a job site. The pool hall is/was the job site of people making a living playing pool. Running wide open all of the time would be silly and pretty much impossible!

There is also the matter of cutting down opportunities. Hit a place playing your best pool and you are probably going to play one person. Play 60-75% of your best and you might play a half-dozen people, spending days in a place as mentioned in the article.

There are strategic reasons for not playing wide open unless you have to, there is also the matter of not killing yourself working on your "job"!

It is great fun to battle a player on the same level and let the ponies run! Making that mistake locally a couple times cost me a few thousand dollars. I think I won a little both times, certainly didn't lose more than pocket change. However, word spread like wildfire that I could run with the big dogs and wasn't bashful betting whatever the other player wanted to play for. DUMMY MOVE!

Hu
 
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From the link (to save people looking, and with some funny characters tidied up):

"Just as much money changes hands among the sweaters (the spectators) as between the players, and that is where the real treachery comes in because the players might be in cahoots. When the best player throws a game it is called a dump. The next level is the double dump, when the mark thinks he is in on a fix and then is double-crossed. There is even a double double dump, when a guy thinks he has been let in on a plan to double cross a mark who thinks he knows the fix is on, only to be double crossed himself. All the players do is make the game come out so that their secret partner on the sidelines wins his bet. I have seen guys go to a lot of trouble to arrange a fix only to find out they were the marks all along.

"But using secret partners and pulling dumps and double dumps—lemonading, we called it—is bunco, real con. In fact, hustling where you hide your speed is stealing. I gave it up as soon as I could afford to, which was about 30 years later. I guess it was true what they said about me: too lazy to work and too yellow to steal."
 
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ShootingArts said:
Interesting that he decided hiding your speed was stealing and only took thirty years to make that decision! He seems cooler with outright con's which I find odd.
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From what I remember of the book, that line (30 years) was very much in McGoorty's style of humor. He also took an objective, honest view of his own life, which included occasional self-criticism, but in moderation and without really turning it on other people (which perhaps explains the inconsistency).
 
Pin said:
From what I remember of the book, that line (30 years) was very much in McGoorty's style of humor. He also took an objective, honest view of his own life, which included occasional self-criticism, but in moderation and without really turning it on other people (which perhaps explains the inconsistency).
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I did figure it was more humor than anything else. Funny thing, I never considered what I did hustling until I came to AZB over fifteen years ago and started reading here. I made it a point to only passively hustle. I laid down a spread, nobody had to step into the trap. Twice in my life I hustled somebody who wasn't trying to hustle me, that has been about fifty years now and I am still a bit embarrassed and regretful about those two times.

Everyone else whose wallet I lightened for more than a few dollars fell into the trap of playing for easy money. They came to me, they were the one that raised the bet, I slept like a baby!

Hu
 
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Pin said:
From the link (to save people looking, and with some funny characters tidied up):

"Just as much money changes hands among the sweaters (the spectators) as between the players, and that is where the real treachery comes in because the players might be in cahoots. When the best player throws a game it is called a dump. The next level is the double dump, when the mark thinks he is in on a fix and then is double-crossed. There is even a double double dump, when a guy thinks he has been let in on a plan to double cross a mark who thinks he knows the fix is on, only to be double crossed himself. All the players do is make the game come out so that their secret partner on the sidelines wins his bet. I have seen guys go to a lot of trouble to arrange a fix only to find out they were the marks all along.

"But using secret partners and pulling dumps and double dumps—lemonading, we called it—is bunco, real con. In fact, hustling where you hide your speed is stealing. I gave it up as soon as I could afford to, which was about 30 years later. I guess it was true what they said about me: too lazy to work and too yellow to steal."
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When you are stalling, essentially what you are hoping to do is have the player think you are the sucker. He is far from an innocent party in most cases. It is not stealing, anymore then buffing in a poker game to keep the player betting.
Just another way to look at it.
 
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middleofnowhere said:
When you are stalling, essentially what you are hoping to do is have the player think you are the sucker. He is far from an innocent party in most cases. It is not stealing, anymore then buffing in a poker game to keep the player betting.
Just another way to look at it.
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You make some good points. But some might argue it is just a thief stealing from a thief. Or a con conning a con.
 
cueman said:
You make some good points. But some might argue it is just a thief stealing from a thief. Or a con conning a con.
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What I said was mostly just for the sake of argument. It is true though. I used to go in a strange pool room during busy hours and just get a table. And throw out 9 balls.

I was fishing, it usually didn't take long for a "would be" hustler to come over asking to play. As well as suggest a small bet. This is the non- innocent I was referring to.

Same with the player who plays when you anounce yourself and ask the desk man if anyone would like to play. That player is usually not the greatest of players but is kind of expected to step up and defend his status in the poolroom. In a lot cases I got the feeling people enjoyed seeing him lose.

Most often though the player is neither the "would be" hustler or the local champ. Just a guy wanting to be one of the boys. He doesn't even expect to win. He is who you usually run into on a bar challenge table. He won't lose much and it takes 4 or 5 like him to make a nights pay.

Your hope is there is a player there good enough to maybe want to play head to head. The guy who takes pleasure holding the table on most nights beating people who can't play. Most every bar has one of those.

To put it perspective though, I'm talking many years ago. Today they all have fancy cues, play on leagues and get their rocks off that way. Most have no interest in gambling and for them that's a good thing. They don't become prey.
 
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boogieman said:
Oh the tangled web we weave. ;)
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I knew small time hustlers that would and had cheated their brother more than once! These guys would hustle anyone with a few dollars in their pocket, including their best "friend"!

I was friendly with a handful of these guys, not nearly the same as being friends! They soon learned that I couldn't get drunk enough to not kick their butts on a pool table and I wouldn't tangle with them at cards or dice, drunk or sober, so I had arm's length relationships with these guys. They would sell you stolen property hotter than a two dollar pistol too. A long provenance, absolutely not hot, the item had belonged to their granddaddy and came down through the family!

I never considered buying a gun from these guys, a good way to get tangled up in a shooting or armed robbery!

I wonder sometimes if these guys are still around pool halls and bars. Been a long time since I did anything but come in, shoot pool, and fade. There used to be maybe a few hundred "denizens of the night" around my medium sized city. They hustled all night, slept until afternoon, then went prowling again. One reason that "straights" were bucking a stacked deck, while they had been working all day and would come in to play with muscles tired and tight, the denizens of the night were rested and fresh. I adopted this lifestyle a few times when I was out of work. It makes a huge difference!

Hu
 
middleofnowhere said:
That player is usually not the greatest of players but is kind of expected to step up and defend his status in the poolroom. In a lot cases I got the feeling people enjoyed seeing him lose.
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Haha, I think that reminds me of a story, maybe from McGoorty again, where I took off a local champ, and some of the other locals corner him, but it turns out they just to say they're glad somebody finally beat the guy.
Local champ doesn't look like a great place to be!
middleofnowhere said:
Today they all have fancy cues, play on leagues and get their rocks off that way.
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That's an interesting point. Did leagues kill hustling? You can see it.
 
middleofnowhere said:
To put it perspective though, I'm talking many years ago. Today they all have fancy cues, play on leagues and get their rocks off that way. Most have no interest in gambling and for them that's a good thing. They don't become prey.
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On one of his videos, Bert Kinister put it this way: "Some pool players are predators and some are warriors. Ya know the difference between a predator and a warrior is a predator hunts food ya know and a warrior hunts men. Be a warrior. Whatever happens don't be the food. Don't be the food. Be a predator and be a warrior, don't be dinner kids."

I can pick off some prey, but I'm a long way from an apex predator! 😅 Bert made this quote after doing one of his drills flawlessly. He was just AMPED up after running the drills. He started out really calm and the more balls he sunk without a miss, the more of the killer instinct came out. He was smelling blood in the water! :)

Pin said:
That's an interesting point. Did leagues kill hustling? You can see it.
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Our local league costs $5 a night. 5 matches, 1 against every member of the other team. At the end of the night, you get $10 if your team wins. It's a nice bonus, but by the time you buy a couple drinks and maybe some cheese balls, you still end up spending $20 minimum that night, more if you're trying to buy your opponents a couple shots before the match lol.
 
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Pin said:
Haha, I think that reminds me of a story, maybe from McGoorty again, where I took off a local champ, and some of the other locals corner him, but it turns out they just to say they're glad somebody finally beat the guy.
Local champ doesn't look like a great place to be!

That's an interesting point. Did leagues kill hustling? You can see it.
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The answer may be a probable yes along with other factors. Before leagues, the only way a player had to justify all that practice was to do some competing. Usually for a small bet to make it real. Often driving to another room to match up with their local champs. The "Gunfighting" aspect.

Today they get to compete in League. In fact it is probably even more real. They often live and die over league matches. Getting better and doing well I league play is a much bigger motivation then playing a few games of $5. 9 ball.

I think leagues have bred a lot of good players. I noticed it a few years ago in local tournament's. Name players often lose matches to local players. These players from so much completing in league have gotten double tough.
 
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Back around ‘87 I drove Cole from the Kelso /Longview team tournament back to Tacoma. During the course of the tournament Cole had borrowed $300 against his cue 3 times with 3 different people and he still had the cue. Vince had picked up the other 2 markers. Cole had called a friend that resided at the MGM in Vegas. Cole had a nice pickup but was drunk and Vince had no license. So I drove Cole while Vince rode with my wife. As we were mounting up, Vince says, “go to Western Union!” In the truck Cole leans to me and says, “forget Western Union! Find a bar. I just called and left a message. Not sure the money will be there.”
So anyway I was an experienced and good cab driver. Not sure why but had a lot of people talk to me as if I was their shrink. Anyway I got true stories the whole drive.
One Story:
In the Deep South Cole was well on his way to a big score. As the end was near he saw pickups with gun racks pulling in. He turns to the opponent and says, “How about I give you all your money back and all of mine and I just leave?”

Oh yeah almost forgot. When we got to the truck stop in Fife there was $1000. So Cole paid Vince and bought us all breakfast.
 
Bob Jewett said:
An acquaintance of mine, call him "C", actually did a double dump. C was a regular at a local pool hall but was getting ready for a career change. (He was going to go to law school.) He told everyone in the room that he had arranged a match with a good shooter ("D") from San Francisco who would come over with his backers. It had been arranged that D would dump the match and split his backers' money with C, and then C would split the take with the locals who had backed him. Then D won the match, which he was favored to win anyway, and C paid up. Then C blamed D for his perfidy to the local guys. D later paid C his share of the double dump.

Only one set of backers is in the dark. Everyone else is in on the deal.

In my experience it is not common, but maybe I just wasn't watching carefully enough. I rarely backed anyone.
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This whole scene where it is accepted and easy to cheat is probably the biggest reason pool will never be much more than mild entertainment and a source for the occassional bar fight. Some sort of Tom foolery is practiced at every level of play. Even my wife expects me to let her win every now and then. The sport is automatically relegated to the back room.
 
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